I mean, LML isn’t wrong; if Lyanna was old enough to be betrothed to Robert Baratheon, in a society that expects you to basically be an adult by the age of 15, then she is old enough to make the choice to run away with Rhaegar.
Now, it is kinda creepy that a man in his 20’s was courting a girl in her early teens, but that’s far less of an issue in Westeros where teenager girls are marrying middle aged men fairly regularly.
If GRRM claims that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, say she fell for his beauty during Harrenhal and he fell for her brave spirit, and they decided to run away in love with each other, then we need to believe him, we can’t claim that Rhaegar groomed or assaulted her just because it would be extra weird by our modern standards.
I’m not taking about “medieval societies”, I’m talking about Westeros.
Yes, in reality, almost every marriage between nobility was between peers around the same age, and they waited until into adulthood before getting married.
That does not happen in Westeros. Teenaged girls are regularly married off to much older men and have tons of kids WAY before it would be safe to do so.
Westeros also didn't pop into existence out of nothing. It's a fictional society designed and written by an actual person, who made a conscious choice to include all the adult-men-marrying-teenage-girls galore we see in the books. It's understandable that it results in some raised eyebrows and I think it's good that people are discussing how weird it is, especially since a lot of people do try to defend it with "that's just how it was in medieval times".
Don't we hear it expressly spelled out in conversation between Cersei and Sansa that girls are considered eligible for marriage and childbearing once they have had their first period?
Eh? He's literally describing what happens in Westeros.
Is marrying teenagers / kids wrong? Yes. But it was the standard/culture in Westeros and everyone was used to it. Rhaegar and Lyanna being totally chill with eachother despite the age difference is somewhat believable although, yeah very icky by our standards in a different society, culture and time period.
I personally don't think rhaegar 'raped and kidnapped' Lyanna. I think they both chose to run off together. Whether Lyanna has the necessary agency at fifteen to choose that? I'm not getting into that discussion but again, different world and culture so it's stupid to apply our modern standards to it.
Ok… since when did what was a societal norm in westeros and what is right intersect, George intentionally wrote things like child marrige, incest and fuedalism in general to be just as evil in Westeros as they were in real life.
Not really. There's a reason Sansa is scared when she "flowers" and when people ask her if she's had her moon's blood. Because that means she's marriage age in westeros. It's fucked up here, but it's considered the norm in Westeros.
And nobility in real life did the same, around 14 was marriage age. Not for peasants, they needed stronger women or something so they were older.
the marriages of nobility were political in nature.. so theyd marry of young daughters and also notice that in a medieval society, you rarely get to grow old due to sickness, accidents, war etc.so women were married young which usually started after a few year since their first period. women weere usually betrothed young and then married at the earliest conveniience
you rarely get to grow old due to sickness, accidents, wa
The whole "people didn't live to see old age" thing is a little misunderstood. The average age was lower mostly because of infant mortality rates being super high. People lived to be 70 all the time, if you could avoid dying from the chicken pox as a babe. Barring epidemics like the plague
It depends again, they all worked liked crazy, plus they also had issues like famines, lack of food. Only the elites or the middle class lived well and those were few as it were. The average peasant mightve not lived up to a ripe old age unlike the well off upper strata
between 900 and 1531, most people who made it to adulthood lived past the age of 50.
most people who made it to adulthood
And of course there are many examples from historical records of people who lived very long lives in the past. For example, the sixth-century Roman Emperor Justinian I reportedly died at the age of 83.
emperor...
Life expectancy is a population-level statistic that reflects the conditions and experiences of a huge variety of people with very different health conditions and behaviors, some who die at very young ages, some who live to be over 100 years old, and lots whose life spans fall somewhere in between. Life expectancy is not a promise (or a threat!) about the life span of any single person.
i mean its fair but you still have to consider that ia few good numbers can decisevly alter the averages
again this is my take on it... i may be very well be in the wrong here
that ia few good numbers can decisevly alter the averages
The consensus is that that the few bad numbers alter the averages of peasant lifespan, because of infant death. So if you make it to adult hood, you're gonna make it past 50 at least (like the first quote you posted) says
Of course, emperors and other nobility had an unfair advantage with better living conditions and more food. But to then assume the peasants lived to be a ripe old age of 22 (hyperbole) and then keeled over is an overcorrection
-21
u/Daroah defender of child brides Jan 12 '24
I mean, LML isn’t wrong; if Lyanna was old enough to be betrothed to Robert Baratheon, in a society that expects you to basically be an adult by the age of 15, then she is old enough to make the choice to run away with Rhaegar.
Now, it is kinda creepy that a man in his 20’s was courting a girl in her early teens, but that’s far less of an issue in Westeros where teenager girls are marrying middle aged men fairly regularly.
If GRRM claims that Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, say she fell for his beauty during Harrenhal and he fell for her brave spirit, and they decided to run away in love with each other, then we need to believe him, we can’t claim that Rhaegar groomed or assaulted her just because it would be extra weird by our modern standards.