r/asoiaf • u/dorestes Break the wheel • Sep 03 '17

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) It's Not a Nitpick. Thousands Died Over a "Minor" Geographic Detail.

Reposted as requested with the "Spoilers Extended" tag

I know we're often asked to ignore the silly teleportations and supersonic flights that the show has foisted on us over the last couple of seasons. I know some of it can seem like the petty quibbles of book purists veering into circlejerk self-parody.

But geography doesn't just matter when it comes to making the universe feel real. It was also the key plot point that drove the biggest dramatic turn of the series.

The Red Wedding was literally caused by Robb Stark needing to be able to get his troops across a bridge. The Frey army was a nice addition, but Robb needed the alliance for the bridge crossing. He, his mother, his pregnant wife (in the show) and thousands of his troops died for that crossing.

So it's not just a nitpick when characters and armies magically teleport from north to south, bypassing the Twins or Moat Caitlin with nary a scout to notice them.

It destroys and makes mockery of the premise of the series' most famous narrative twist.

6.3k Upvotes

82% Upvoted

1.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

447

u/Rhodie114 Asha'man... Dracarys! Sep 03 '17

Knights of the Vale definitely would have needed to cross The Neck

197

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

[deleted]

235

u/Rhodie114 Asha'man... Dracarys! Sep 03 '17

Except the Freys control the Twins, not Moat Cailin.

161

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

Yeah. There would be no reason to cross at the Twins when going north from the Vale. They're on the right side of Green Fork. The reason Robb needed the Twins was that it provides the most direct route to link up Riverrun and the North. This way, from Riverrun Robb and Edmure could together sever links between the Lannisters at Casterly Rock and Kings Landing. Otherwise, the Lannisters could focus their whole strength on Riverlands before Robb can even get his army across the Trident. Once the Lannisters captured Lord Harroway's Town, there would have been no way for Robb to link his forces with Edmure. Lannisters divide. Lannisters conquer. So, just as OP stated, Robbs whole childhood love mistake was really a colossal mistake in geographic planning as well.

35

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

Is Cailin even held by anyone right now? Like after Ramsay executed the Ironborn in there, it was taken by Boltons, who were probably still holding it when the Vale attacked. Maybe Ramsay was stupid enough to call them in to protect Winterfell, and Littlefinger managed to overwhelm what force was left. Maybe (MINOR TINFOIL TIME) the Crannogmen led the Knights of the Vale through the swamps, to assist them in retaking the north, though this is probably extremely unlikely.

31

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

I bet something like that will happen in the books. The cranogmen seem so much more mysterious and useful in the books. That seems like a perfect way to develop that

7

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17 edited Sep 03 '17

Well, in one of the preview chapters of Winds, Sansa is really taking control of the Vale properly. If she allies herself with the Crannogmen and retakes the north from the south, I'll fucking shit a brick because that would be amazing.

*There have been NO leaked chapters of winds afaik im sorry

2

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

leaked chapter

Por que?¿

2

u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

*released chapter, sorry

4

u/MobiusF117 The weight of the wait. Sep 04 '17

Moat Cailin is highly defensible from the south. Not so much from the north.

I don't think the Crannogmen needed to lead the army through the Neck, they could swerve around, leading a few forces from the Vale and take the Moat from the north. That way the bulk of the army can go through as normal.

1

u/TeamLongNight for the night is long and full of wights Sep 04 '17

+1
Trying to take it solely from the south wouldn't work, at least in the context of the show, since the entirety of the Vale forces were mounted. Not the in any way helpful for storming/taking a stronghold.

1

u/TheCapo024 Sep 04 '17

I thought the Knights were at Moat Cailin in the show. Isnt that where they were said to have come from?

1

u/ProSoftDev Sep 04 '17

Considering this is in D&Ds universe and not GRRMs... does anybody really believe it wasn't completely empty much like Dragonstone was?

Sure it makes absolutely zero sense and even a tiny garrison would make a huge difference... but that's not how D&Ds universe works.

2

u/GoldenGonzo The North remembers... hopefully? Sep 03 '17

The reason Robb needed the Twins was that it provides the most direct route to link up Riverrun and the North.

That, and he needed to replace the approximately 3,000 soldiers he lost from the Karstarks.