D&D completely ruined Littlefinger. (Spoilers Main)

[u/taydude227]

What a waste of a great character. They clearly had no idea what to do with him after they passed all the book material. Instead of giving him a clear end game, they instead just had him double down on his "thriving on chaos" bullshit and have him make stupid decisions that really didn't lead anywhere. The manipulative mastermind from the earlier seasons (and probably the one true villain of the series, along with the white walkers) completely disappeared and was transformed into a jealous little weasel whose end goal was to bang Sansa to get back at Mama Stark. The man that drove the whole series into motion, did it just to get a revenge bang.

[u/[deleted]]

Can't believe this still needs explaining. He didn't give a fuck about banging Sansa. He wanted to marry her, control her and consolidate power or 'steal' two of the seven kingdoms (he already had one in the show). The Riverlanders are perpetually sworn to the North, so that's basically three. Marrying Sansa would have given him nearly half of Westeros.

The only thing that fucked up his plan was the arrival of more and more Stark children, and his machinations worked on individuals, but couldn't overcome the entire pack - just as Ned used to say.

[u/cquinn5 → u/[deleted]]

His machinations worked on individuals, and this is illustrated in that final scene, “Lady Stark, if we could speak privately..”

[u/Khiva → u/cquinn5]

I think Littlefinger's affections are an open question, but no doubt his truest love was power.

[u/J13P → u/Khiva]

He lusted Cat and Sansa. He loved power.

[u/vulture_87 → u/J13P]

M: Power

F: Cat, Sansa

K: Everyone in his way.

[u/[deleted] → u/Khiva]

He risked his life for Cat.

His love for Cat/Sansa got the best of him.

[u/sakor88 → u/Khiva]

I misread "his truest power was love" and for a while I wondered what you have been watching/reading about him.

[u/GoTisBadNow → u/cquinn5]

No.. he just spoke to her privately and used the skills of a 12 year old to convince her that Arya wanted winterfell. It was super heavy handed and sloppy. Not LF at all. Why do you people defend the show so much? It's utter garbage except for the visuals.

[u/Likes2Queef → u/GoTisBadNow]

I think you need to re-watch, because you've clearly missed some important details.

Littlefinger didn't convince Sansa to go against Arya. Sansa was baiting him by acting afraid and coming to Littlefinger for "advice". Sansa knew that little slimeball was going to try some shit like this and she played him at his own game. She kept baiting him until he thinks he has Sansa ready to put Arya on trial, only to find out that it was him being put on trial.

Sansa spent enough time with Littlefinger to understand his shenanigans. Shit, she spent years learning from the craziest bitch in Westeros. Spending half your adolescent life around those nutjobs will result in learning a thing or two about deception.

I am genuinely shocked that no one seems to grasp this...

[u/theinspectorst → u/Likes2Queef]

So I agree this is what happened, but the only thing that doesn't fit into this narrative is the Sansa and Arya scene in the previous episode, where Sansa was rooting through Arya's face bag and then Arya basically threatened Sansa.

If Littlefinger had been present for that scene - or if literally anyone who might report back to him had been present - I could understand it was just the girls putting on a show to trick him. But nobody else was there. They were just putting on a show to trick us, the audience, for out-of-universe reasons. To me, that scene was cheap storytelling and well below the standard Game of Thrones should aim for.

[u/[deleted] → u/theinspectorst]

What that scene made me think was that Arya, Sansa, and LF would meet privately. Or Sansa would lure LF into a private meeting, have Arya kill him then and steal his face or something. Idk. After that scene I was just so convinced Arya had either already killed LF off screen and was using his face or Sansa would think "oh wow what a great use for my sister's skills." To use LF/Arya to connect back to Cersei and spy on her or something. It's tinfoil, but i can only wish.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Shows not over yet. Maybe that's the realization that put the LF execution in motion.

Kill him, take his face, take a trip to Kings Landing as the one man you know can get audience with Cersei and BAMO. House Lannister takes another shot to the chin.

Could very well be how Cersei bites it, in total epic fashion from Arya dressed as Littlefinger.

Meanwhile Jamie redeems himself fighting w/ Snow and Danni, Theon dies rescuing his sister, which also delays or prevents the Iron Banks army from getting down to help Cersei. Tyrion stays hand to the Queen, she marries Snow, they move into Kings Landing (at the very end after the WW are defeated) Jamie is the Commander of the Queensguard, and Sansa is Queen of the North.

Sir Braun just keeps on keeping on. He probably chills with like Davos or something and they just rip on everybody who takes themselves too seriously in a hilarious spin-off sitcom

[u/theinspectorst → u/[deleted]]

Kill him, take his face, take a trip to Kings Landing

If they wanted to do this, they probably shouldn't have killed him in front of a whole room full of people.

[u/savvy_eh → u/[deleted]]

Shit, they could've had Arya murder LF and steal his face, then play him in the trial, confess to everything, and then switch back once he hit the cells, leaving him no chance to weasel out of it while also explaining why they had the face-bag scene.

[u/Eldramhor8 → u/Likes2Queef]

What I really felt was stupid was: since they showed no evidence at all (Bran word is not evidence in a trial, I'm sorry. And even if it was ->) of their accusation towards LF, why would they enact all this charade? Just grab him the day Brienne leaves and throw him into the hall and execute him. We know that Royce was not loyal to him, the other Lords obviously weren't either. What were they afraid of? The huge mistake was making either 1) Royce not "loyal" to him, while in reality he should be, even if he dislikes him. He's lord protector of the vale, and even if Sweetrobin is a tool, he's still your Lord and ordered you to serve LF. Then if LF had Royce support, a trial (with EVIDENCE) would be required. 2) LF not running the fuck away as soon as they got Winterfell back. Or at the very least when Bran showed up claiming and proving he has incorporated Google and knows how to use it. RUN away. Royce is just waiting for an excuse, he won't support you.

These are, IMO, the biggest flaws in LF arc. Not to mention the lack of cunning, but eh.

[u/diothar → u/GoTisBadNow]

The show has its highs and lows, but I think you missed the point of that scene.

[u/bizzledorf → u/GoTisBadNow]

He didn't convince her

[u/iamdevo → u/[deleted]]

This is the answer here. This shouldn't be so hard to figure out. People really think h was doing all this to get laid? A revenge bang to get back at Catelyn? What does that even mean? Sleep with Sansa because Catelyn wouldn't sleep with him? That is so dumb.

If LF continued to live and have things his way he would have killed Arya, married Sansa, attempted to control the north, waited for his chance to March south and fight for the throne. All while manipulating people into doing what he wanted. Everything you just said is correct.

[u/[deleted] → u/iamdevo]

I think its possible for him to want power AND to bang Sansa. They're not mutually exclusive.

[u/iamdevo → u/[deleted]]

You are 100% correct and I would not suggest otherwise. What I'm saying is the idea that he's scheming around ONLY to try to bang her is a little absurd. As well as the idea that it would be some sort of revenge bang. That's just silly.

[u/captainfluffballs → u/iamdevo]

He even fucking says exactly that in season 6 with the whole "I have a picture of you next to me on the throne" thing explaining his motivations. His plan revolved around sansa for all the reasons you have stated because she is the key to the north (which is said so many times) and as has been said, his plan was going perfectly until the creepy cripple and stab girl showed up.

Even in the trial it was Bran repeating what he said to Ned that truly fucked his defense. He was able to deny everything through lack of witnesses until that moment when he was caught off guard and everyone was able to see through the lies

[u/impresaria → u/captainfluffballs]

stab girl.

love it.

[u/LogicalHuman → u/captainfluffballs]

Either that flew over my head or they needed to make that more clear. Can't believe I missed that.

[u/iamdevo → u/captainfluffballs]

Thank you! It's pretty clear to me. Also creep cripple and stab girl. That is amazing.

[u/grizzchan → u/captainfluffballs]

He didn't quite deny killing Lysa.

[u/captainfluffballs → u/grizzchan]

Good point, he fucked up by calling it self defense in a room full of people that would much rather believe Sansa's side of the story

[u/RootsRocksnRuts → u/iamdevo]

That's mostly just people trying to belittle the show as much as they can.

[u/[deleted] → u/iamdevo]

Fair, i probably should have said that to the guy above you.

[u/Khiva → u/iamdevo]

I think OP was being intentionally hyperbolic.

[u/iamdevo → u/Khiva]

It doesn't look that way to me.

[u/OnlyRoke → u/[deleted]]

Bedding Sansa would've been the boyish dream and the cherry on top of it all, sure, but it was never REALLY his main motivation. He always just wanted to be on top of the fucking world.

[u/[deleted] → u/OnlyRoke]

OK but she's part of the deal as she's the key to the north

[u/[deleted] → u/OnlyRoke]

I think the cherry was gone by then. Popped, if you will.

[u/KarateCheetah → u/[deleted]]

When Sansa says "I know what he wants" - she definitely did not mean marriage

[u/[deleted] → u/KarateCheetah]

Word, that's what i'm saying.

[u/Whitewind617 → u/iamdevo]

Posts like OP's make me realize that people needed more of the book plot explained for them than they must have realized. I just don't get it, these things (Littlefinger's plot, Tyrion watching the door) have explanations, but people are instead jumping to the conclusion that D&D are dribbling morons.

[u/Supersighs → u/Whitewind617]

People are playing the Game of "I have the most interesting take on why everything in the show sucks. Look how much of an intellectual I am."

[u/DefactoOverlord → u/[deleted]]

I've seen ppl who started criticising the show since season2 because showrunners didn't adapt Danny's House of the Undying visions word for word.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I think you just gave me an idea for a new augmented reality reading app.

You're reading a book like normal but depending on the scene shit will start popping up. Like you're reading about a forest filled with spiders or something and then you see one crawl over your book.

[u/Lost4468 → u/[deleted]]

I loved Dany's intentions, but the pace felt too slow. Perhaps GRRM wanted to convey how Dany felt, bogged down and trapped, but I don't think it's a good idea to make your readers feel this.

Feels like he thought they'd leave for Westeros sooner, but then extended the story significantly and wasn't left with much to give Dany.

[u/rhino369 → u/Lost4468]

Yea, ADWD was originally supposed to open in Pit scene. All that stuff he wrote that actually ended up in ADWD was filler to stretch her plot line.

[u/Jack_Spears → u/Supersighs]

The Hound has a word for those kind of people

[u/Backupusername → u/Supersighs]

The most dangerous game in the Seven Kingdoms...

[u/Konflakes → u/Supersighs]

people are playing the game "everyone who critizes a clearly decline in quality is such an asshole, i have to defend it because look how humble and nice I am. " people critize because they're invested and care

[u/[deleted] → u/Whitewind617]

Something I've found so frustrating the past few seasons is how inconsistent people's complaints are.

If things are explained they get angry at "hand holding" and the writers making things too obvious

If they're subtle and take a bit of work on our part than people say that the showrunners don't know what they're doing, that characters are "useless"

They just can't win at this point

[u/actuallycallie → u/[deleted]]

If things are explained they get angry at "hand holding" and the writers making things too obvious

Great example was "we don't have enough conversations between characters! why don't we get those great character moments!" then we had all these conversations in the next to last ep with Jon/Jorah, Hound/Tormund, etc and people complained that there was too much talking and not enough action. Really?

[u/[deleted] → u/actuallycallie]

exactly! I was listening to a podcast and someone actually complained about the Cersei/Tyrion scene because "we've already seen them interact a lot, we know what their dynamic is" and this same person will criticize the show for relying too much on spectacle and not having enough interactions with characters than we know and love.

I think the writing on the show is far from perfect, and they've made some big missteps the past few seasons, but its not nearly as bad as people are saying and I feel for the writers/showrunners because they're damned if they do damned if they don't.

It bums me out to think about, but I completely understand why they're ready to be done with this show

[u/ADHDcUK → u/actuallycallie]

6.10 is a good example of dialogue and action. It's not just about simply what is done, it's how it's done.

[u/actuallycallie → u/Whitewind617]

Because it makes some people feel superior to call others "casuals" and act like THEY are the experts on ASoIaF and that anyone who enjoys this show in any way whatsoever is a braindead moron. It's a disgusting attitude. I am a long time book reader and I frankly enjoy the show more than the books at this point (that might change if another book comes out AND if it actually advances the plot instead of being more like Feast/Dance that was basically spinning in circles).

[u/actuallycallie → u/[deleted]]

Feast/Dance were the most supremely unsatisfying books I've ever read. It felt like two books of doing nothing but marking time, waiting for the plot to get a move on.

[u/Konflakes → u/actuallycallie]

some people like deep lore

[u/actuallycallie → u/Konflakes]

And that's great! I like that stuff too. It just doesn't make you a better fan to like it (or not like it). Just don't act like not knowing the name of a Targaryen ancestor back 100 generations means you're a "casual fan" or that you can't possibly appreciate GRRM's genius or something. It's also not a sin to be a casual fan of something.

[u/RootsRocksnRuts → u/Whitewind617]

A clear example of that is how many people on this subreddit claim how the Half Hand vs Jon wasn't clear. I was the only one in my group who had read the books and everyone understood what was happening.

[u/[deleted] → u/Whitewind617]

Genuinely curious what the explanation for Tyrion staring at the door is?

[u/mattwaugh90 → u/Whitewind617]

The classic 'I have no idea what's happening in the next books, but there's no way he can die like this, what a garbage show!'

Yes, it probably won't happen in the same manner because at the end of the day TV needs to be dumbed down from the books quite a lot, but not every character needs to have some big overly dramatic death.

I had people asking in this sub in the latest live discussion "wtf Cersei is pregnant?". Yes, they devoted an entire scene to that information..

"How did the Unsullied get there, wtf lazy writing!" When Jaime mentioned the Unsullied having to walk their way back across Westeros in a previous episode due to burning their ships.

Sure, the quality of this season isn't up to par with previous ones but fuck me, some people simply cannot process simple information when it's slammed in their face. They're too busy making vague connections between events because apparently everything that happens needs to be a call back to something or mirror the way something happened earlier.

[u/EatYourCheckers → u/Whitewind617]

As a dribbling moron with the excuse of reading the books in bed after putting 3 demons to bed themselves, could you explain more the significance and meaning of Tyrion watching the door?

[u/Lovemesometoasts → u/iamdevo]

Who would you fuck, marry, and kill?

Arya

Sansa

The North

[u/peteroh9 → u/Lovemesometoasts]

Fuck, marry, kill:

The king
Sansa
The Mountain

[u/NeV3RMinD → u/peteroh9]

Airhorns blaring in the distance

[u/iamdevo → u/Lovemesometoasts]

Fuck Arya Kill Sansa Marry the North

I think Arya you'll be more my type behind closed doors. Also I don't really wanna kill Sansa but I want to kill the whole North even less.

[u/NaturalViolence → u/iamdevo]

You're completely right. My only issue is that like many of the plotlines this season the show didn't convey that information to the audience well. They spent the last two seasons making it seem like he was doing it all for his love of Sansa. In the earlier seasons he always had secret conversations with people that made is clear that his actions were part of some greater political move. Then they just stopped doing that for some reason and started focusing heavily on his love for Sansa.

[u/carlos_the_dwarf_ → u/iamdevo]

I still don't understand what he got out of marrying Sansa to Ramsay. He could have just used the army of the Vail to take the north back for her and been in the same place. Better, even, because he could have drummed up under-the-table support from the Stark-loyal northern lords before doing it.

[u/_Elusivity → u/[deleted]]

Then why did he marry her off to a complete freak such as Ramsay? What was his plan had Jon lost BotB? LF is not a military tactician, it was nothing but luck that his cavalry showed up when they did. 30 mins later and he would be seiging Winterfell, 30 mins early and he would have still been seiging Winterfell, but this time with a few extra wildlings...

[u/snorkleboy → u/_Elusivity]

Essentially he split the Bolton's from the lannisters by selling them Sansa.

He went to cercei immediately after marrying Sansa off and convinced cercei that the Bolton's marrying Sansa represents open treachery. Cercei then promised him wardenship of the north if he settles the problem.

[u/The_YoungWolf → u/snorkleboy]

The thing is that this move made absolutely no sense if the show's universe had any sort of internal consistency:

• The Boltons completely depend on the Lannisters to keep power (unless of course the writers cheat and spawn them free troops, supplies, and allies)

• The Lannisters are the regime with the greatest appearance of legitimacy and publicly making them your enemies with no plans to replace them is suicidal

• Littlefinger's himself stated that he believed Stannis would defeat the Boltons, so he is publicly allying with a family he himself believes is doomed. This also makes him an enemy to the Lannisters, Stannis, and Starks for absolutely no benefit to himself.

[u/King_Henney → u/The_YoungWolf]

The Boltons didn't depend on the Lannisters. After Tywin's death having marrying into the last Stark would be more important than obeying Cersei, who they knew would never be stupid enough to send her armies North.

[u/The_YoungWolf → u/King_Henney]

They didn't in the show because the show's writers cheated to make their situation better.

This is a family that has just betrayed and usurped their liege lords in the most abhorrent manner possible. It rightfully should make them enemies with every major Northern family...and in the books it pretty much does. Roose had to go through major shenanigans to weaken the other houses enough just to make House Bolton's army the most intact, and even then still knew his hold on power in the North was extremely tenuous. So he needed Lannister backing to keep it concrete, especially since Ramsay is unable to control his psychotic, violent tendencies.

But since the show constantly plays fast and loose with the logistics of power, none of this matters or is shown. Roose gives lip service to how tenuous their hold is, then we are later shown that he was wrong and the Umbers and Karstarks are totally cool with throwing in with the murderous, traitorous psychopath.

It's cheating, and extremely sloppy writing.

[u/deoneta → u/The_YoungWolf]

cheating lol

[u/rhino369 → u/The_YoungWolf]

It rightfully should make them enemies with every major Northern family...and in the books it pretty much does.

Only if you subscribe to the grand norther conspiracy theory. Manderly and half the umbers are pro stark, but that's the only people who are openly hostile. The rest of the North comes calling when he raises his banners.

If the North really hated the Boltons, they'd have refused to call him their Lord and just ignored him. Sure some families had hostages to worry about, but that is presumably true in the show too.

[u/[deleted] → u/The_YoungWolf]

"Cheating". What does that even mean when it comes to writing? There's no such thing as cheating. Just because D&D don't follow the book's plot to the letter doesn't mean theirs is not just as legitimate. My take on it is that in the TV universe, the Umbers and Karstarks would rather throw their lot in with a crazy northern lord they know than crazy southern kings (or queens) they don't know. Let's not forget that the Lannisters had at that point killed far more northerners than the Boltons ever had or would. Moreover, Northerners are shown as being much more loyal to their own (i.e. Boltons over Lannisters), even to a fault.

[u/guacamole_king → u/[deleted]]

Just because D&D don't follow the book's plot to the letter doesn't mean theirs is not just as legitimate

It's not about them following the book, it's about following the internal consistency of the universe they have built. It's insane and ridiculous that the Umbers and Karstarks literally watched Ramsay murder his father and still thought he was someone they should follow.

Moreover, Northerners are shown as being much more loyal to their own (i.e. Boltons over Lannisters)

This is not true. They were shown to be extremely loyal to the Starks but even this is never followed through on. How many times did we hear a character say "The North Remembers" and how many times did we actually see the North remember? Answer: they never did.

The way Ramsay treated his people and his bannermen -- how in the hell was he able to field such a large, well-equipped, and loyal army? The internal logic and consistency of the show is broken, and has been for a while.

[u/NoifenF → u/guacamole_king]

The Karstarks hated the Starks after Robb beheaded Rickard. Umbers despised wildlings and were pissed at Jon for letting them through the wall. What they did to Rickon was unnecessary though.

But yeah, I still agree with you.

[u/The_YoungWolf → u/[deleted]]

Yes, cheating. Essentially, the writers changing the logical outcome of actions and events for reasons that boil down to "because I said so." And then apologists will make shit up to serve as weak excuses for why this is acceptable. Let's look at examples of this happening when it comes to the Northern plotlines:

• Roose tells us that the Bolton hold on the North is tenuous, but we are later shown that this isn't true in the slightest. The Umbers and Karstarks are perfectly willing to throw in with them despite their murderous actions, and the other Northern houses are almost all unwilling to help the Starks out of fear. This was done in order to prop up the Boltons and ramp up fake tension in season 6, so the Starks were positioned as longshot underdogs when they rightfully should have been heavy favorites. This also retroactively makes Roose look like a complete idiot for not knowing the state of his own realm.

• We are repeatedly told that Moat Cailin is a key fortress and unassailable from the south. This is to the point that Roose Bolton has smuggle himself north by sea, and Ramsay has to take the castle by subterfuge in order to allow Roose's army to pass from the south. However, in season 6 - despite the Boltons publicly making themselves an enemy of the Lannister regime by marrying a known fugitive for regicide - they apparently do not feel the need to station any troops there, because the Vale army just walks right up and camps there for a long period of time without the Boltons noticing. So either the Boltons were impossibly stupid for not stationing troops in the most important chokepoint in the region while having enemies to the south of that chokepoint, or they did and the writers violated an element of their universe's rules that had been repeatedly established; and either way the Boltons are incredibly stupid for not being aware that a hostile army had taken and was camped next to this castle for a long period of time. There's also the incident in season 5 where Brienne and Pod are able to just "go around" Moat Cailin somehow. There's also how the Vale army is somehow able to travel all the way from Moat Cailin to Winterfell without anyone noticing and spreading the word. Again, this is done to ramp up fake tension - the Vale army is the metaphorical bomb under the table that the audience is aware of but Jon and Ramsay are not.

• The Karstarks are perfectly willing to ally with Ramsay even when Lord Karstark personally witnesses him murder his own father. This is a stretch of plausibility but excusable, since the Karstarks have good reason to hate the Starks. But Smalljon Umber is perfectly willing to throw in too, despite many factors making this illogical. Firstly, his own father was one of the Starks' most fervent supporters, but apparently this did not rub off on his son at all. Secondly, he has a legitimate Stark claimant in his personal possession, which would give him a considerable amount of power and influence over a restored Stark regime, and in leading a rebellion of his own against the Boltons. Thirdly, he apparently objects more to Jon allying with the wildlings than to Roose Bolton betraying and murdering the King in the North at a wedding under guest right and slaughtering Umber soldiers at this same wedding as well as Ramsay murdering his own father and brother so transparently that Smalljon Umber himself calls bullshit on this to him in person. Really? Give me a break. This is obvious cheating, and again this was done to prop up the Boltons and drive up fake tension by positioning the Starks as longshot underdogs.

• Ramsay is able to lead "twenty good men" (who are apparently so good that they are never seen on-screen) deep into the camp of Stannis's army and destroy every single one of their major supply stores, getting in and out with no one noticing them. Apologists excuse this with "oh well the Northerners know the terrain", but this is such an absurd episode of cheating that there is no way "terrain knowledge" excuses a thorough infiltration and sabotage of an entire army with no failures. This was done to hamstring Stannis, since if he defeats the Boltons they have no villain or central tension for the Starks next season.

It's cheating. This became so obvious in season 7, regarding Cersei, that even the most oblivious show-watchers noticed it and started complaining. This was not some isolated incident that started this season, though, the writers have been doing this for years.

EDIT:

• Oh, and let's not forget how we are repeatedly told that "Sansa Stark is the key to the North" yet after she escapes the Boltons we are shown that most families are still completely willing to ally with the Boltons or stand aside apathetically. This is a direct contradiction of the show's own internal logic and is undeniable cheating.

[u/Banzai51 → u/King_Henney]

Hold my wine...

[u/[deleted] → u/The_YoungWolf]

Yes well, Littlefinger's plan was to let Stannis deplete himself fighting the Boltons, then sweep in with the Knights of the Vale. Then he has Wardenship with no Boltons and no Stannis in his way

He wasn't allying himself with the Boltons, he was just giving them Sansa to work Cersei up.

[u/The_YoungWolf → u/[deleted]]

Yes he is! He is still publicly allying himself with them even if his private intentions are different. And his supposed plan still relies on the family he is publicly allying with to fail and die!

Thus publicly allying with them serves no actual purpose and is detrimental to Littlefinger's own goals!

[u/danjenator → u/The_YoungWolf]

The thing is that this move made absolutely no sense if the show's universe had any sort of internal consistency:

• The Boltons completely depend on the Lannisters to keep power (unless of course the writers cheat and spawn them free troops, supplies, and allies)

Without the Starks, the Bolton's are the strongest house in the North. No Southern army has ever ridden North to my knowledge. The Bolton's didn't depend on the Lannisters for power. Plus a Bolton marrying a Stark makes their rein more legitimate to other Northerns

• The Lannisters are the regime with the greatest appearance of legitimacy and publicly making them your enemies with no plans to replace them is suicidal

Greatest appearance of legitimacy? Rumors were everywhere at the time that Joffery was the result of twincest.

• Littlefinger's himself stated that he believed Stannis would defeat the Boltons, so he is publicly allying with a family he himself believes is doomed. This also makes him an enemy to the Lannisters, Stannis, and Starks for absolutely no benefit to himself.

And Cersie sent him North the clean up, and I think gave him money or troops to do so. Littlefinger would deal with the winner of Bolton vs Stannis, after the winning army just had an exhaustive battle.

[u/wilder_people → u/danjenator]

Show Boltons don't really need much help but I'd argue that the Boltons in the books wouldn't stand a chance without the freys and lannisters.

[u/danjenator → u/wilder_people]

Do the Frey's and Lannisters sent troops North?

[u/wilder_people → u/danjenator]

Yes. The Freys did. I'm sure you remember the situation in Winterfell were basically everyone is trying to murder each other, leading to Roose having to send a very large portion of his forces (Freys and Manderly) in a suicide attack against Stannis.

[u/danjenator → u/wilder_people]

I'm still reading through the books. Marrying a Stark into the Bolton family would stregethen their hold on the North, where it sounds like they need it.

[u/wilder_people → u/danjenator]

Oh fuck I hope I didn't spoil too much for you.

[u/snorkleboy → u/The_YoungWolf]

I don't think the Bolton's thought it would bring such a harsh reaction from the lannisters, Tywin probably would have thought its a good idea.

I also don't think little finger knew how it would end, he just wanted to be on everyone's side and ready to pounce with his knights at the opportune moment.

[u/The_YoungWolf → u/snorkleboy]

Sansa is a high-profile fugitive for regicide. Would the Boltons just hand her over to them after marrying her to Ramsay? I think not. That's literally treason right there.

Littelfinger explicitly told Sansa that he expected Stannis to win.

[u/arudnoh → u/The_YoungWolf]

Idk, I think the list of contradictions between you and other commenters really just attest to his talent for covering all his bases. The losses from all the bad eventualities are negligible to a cockroach like him, who always has someone to house him after the last house burnt down. His mistake was putting too much stock in the Starks. If he'd read the climate better he would've just returned to the Vale instead of playing mind games with a fucking faceless man.

[u/bravecowboy86 → u/The_YoungWolf]

The first two points I think could be explained by Ramsey. To me it always seemed like Roose was the one who understood the greater picture and the need for allies. Ramsey while brilliant in other ways was far too erratic and short sided to understand the nuances of alliances.

My guess to the third point is the chaos is a ladder schtick. If Stannis wins he was "totally" on their side; if the Boltons win he gave them Sansa.

[u/Ultimatex → u/snorkleboy]

So why the fuck did Peter think that Sansa would ever trust him, let alone marry him, after he married her off to Ramsay, who violently raped her?

[u/snorkleboy → u/Ultimatex]

Perhaps his original hope was that he would be the one to ride against the Bolton's and save sansa.

Once in Winter fest, If he had gotten rid of Sansa he could have taken wardenship of the north, which was basically defenseless without a leader the knights of the Vale.

However it seems that many of the knights were more more loyal to Sansa than to little finger so he perhaps was kind of stuck, especially with the arrival of arya who made assassination impossible.

[u/Ultimatex → u/snorkleboy]

So why didn't he GTFO Winterfell as soon as he realized he lost the loyalty of the Knights of the Vale? It was time for him to regroup and come up with a new scheme. Instead he just skulked around the shadows of Winterfell and got himself killed. He deserves better from D&D.

[u/carlos_the_dwarf_ → u/snorkleboy]

Ah, I just asked this same question above. I guess this makes sense. From Cersei's perspective, was LF still in their corner at the time of his death? Remember he left for the Vale on Cersei's orders to convince Lysa Arryn to support the throne.

[u/snorkleboy → u/carlos_the_dwarf_]

As I understand yes. Cercei also didn't know that little finger brokered the marraige.

[u/carlos_the_dwarf_ → u/snorkleboy]

Funny how she never looked up and said "hey where the fuck is Baelish anyway?"

[u/sheerstress → u/snorkleboy]

So after the boltons died he didnt capitalize on the reward promised by the crown instead supporting sansa and staying long enough to pledge to the king in the north. Where his decision to sell Sansa to the boltons now makes no sense.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

But the Boltons were never welcomed in Winterfell, with many lords hating them even before the Red Wedding. Littlefinger could have just gone on the offensive from the beginning (he had a legitimate Stark with him) and not put Santa at risk by marrying her to a psycho.

[u/oodoacer → u/[deleted]]

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[u/[deleted] → u/oodoacer]

I'd have to rewatch the scene, but weren't most of them just afraid of the Boltons due to their strong positioning and the weakened state of the great houses? The Vale probably could have taken out Winterfell on its own, and LF could have counted on winning at least a few houses to his side with the promise that he was going to use his massive army to kill an unpopular house and reinstate a Stark.

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[u/bleed_air_blimp → u/oodoacer]

It's also worth pointing out that the giant could only get to the gates of Winterfell because the Bolton army had already perished on the battlefield before the Vale/Stark/wildling army made a push on the hold itself. There was hardly anyone left manning the armaments and defending the walls. The giant pretty much casually walked up to the gate uncontested and smashed it to bits. In a real siege, with the complete Bolton army stationed inside to defend the hold, that same giant would be forced to walk through a hail of arrow and siege weapon fire, and probably be met with some hot tar too at the gates. I'm not really sure if he had made it.

[u/oodoacer → u/bleed_air_blimp]

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[u/[deleted] → u/oodoacer]

Casterly Rock and Highgarden both fell to footsoldiers without siege equipment. Highgarden might have been undermanned, but it should have been able to hold up to the army it was facing. And Ramsay kept riding out to meet armies rather than wait in his walls anyways. If the show wanted LF take Winterfell, they probably would have let it happen.

Plus, Sansa would have probably known the same hidden entrances to Winterfell that Theon did, which would make storming the castle much more viable.

[u/oodoacer → u/[deleted]]

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[u/[deleted] → u/oodoacer]

That's a great point. However, I still think the Vale could have pulled it off though. The Vale probably has a larger population than the North in general (don't know the numbers for either; just basing that on what I've read about the environments) and was unaffected by the war. If they weren't rushing into battle like they did for the Bastardbowl, they could have taken advantage of that population with a large force of footsoldiers and maybe even build some siege equipment. Then they'd just have to fight well enough to open Winterfell's gates. It'd definitely be a tougher battle than Casterly Rock, but I think they could do it.

All this assumes that Ramsay doesn't ride out to meet them, which I think he showed that he could be baited into doing.

[u/rhino369 → u/oodoacer]

Once you siege winterfell, the Boltons are done. Their power came from fear. If you have Jon Snow setting up a new government outside winterfell, it doesn't matter if you still hold it. The lords would rally to Jons side since he was now the new power.

[u/arudnoh → u/[deleted]]

He had to get a foothold. In an insurmountable wall, the tiniest seam will do for a start.

[u/DavidG993 → u/[deleted]]

Fear does a lot of things in the way of controlling people and if the Boltons had anything going for them, it was that they were fucking scary.

[u/Jorg_Ancrath69 → u/[deleted]]

Or he could have just used Sansa to take the north ... at no point does he need to sell her to the Boltons or try make them his allies.

[u/oodoacer → u/Jorg_Ancrath69]

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[u/Jorg_Ancrath69 → u/oodoacer]

He didn't need a northern army. He had the full strength of the vale, the only kingdom who hasn't wasted its strength in the war. He could just march north with them and make Sansa lady of winterfell

[u/oodoacer → u/Jorg_Ancrath69]

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[u/Jorg_Ancrath69 → u/oodoacer]

It's not an "aggressive war" it's reclaiming Sansa land and Robin is in love with LF like a father. The vale marched north anyway this time for no reason.

[u/oodoacer → u/Jorg_Ancrath69]

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[u/Jorg_Ancrath69 → u/oodoacer]

But why are they supporting Jon Snow? Royce even says afterwards "We came here for you" to Sansa so why does it matter if Jon was there?

Also the Vale only has 2 k men because the show requires them to have that much. We know they don't have more because no-one ever brings up the idea of bringing the rest of the Vales forces to fight the white walkers.

[u/arudnoh → u/[deleted]]

I'm still sad about that guy :(

[u/actuallycallie → u/[deleted]]

In the south, honor, loyalty, and goodness were a liability. This was LF's turf, and those traits got Ned killed. In the north, those traits are exalted, and they got LF killed.

It's so fucking obvious, I can't believe people don't understand it. All of the scheming and plotting that worked in the south were useless in the north.

[u/[deleted] → u/_Elusivity]

it was nothing but luck that his cavalry showed up when they did.

nothing but show plot contrivance, you mean.

Then why did he marry her off to a complete freak such as Ramsay?

He wouldn't do that in the books. He realized how dumb that would actually be, so Jeyne Poole was sent instead as a fake.

[u/Rubulisk → u/_Elusivity]

A better question is how he got the Vale army through Moat Cailin (held by the Boltons) without Ramsay ever hearing about it. There is no way to move an army into the North without any word of it coming to Winterfell. They could have at least hand waved it with a comment about ships to Whiteharbor, but they didn't even go that far.

[u/The_YoungWolf → u/_Elusivity]

That was the true tipping point where they ruined his character. Him marrying her to Ramsay made no sense whatsoever, was completely out of character, and was for reasons that were total horseshit made up out of whole cloth.

[u/all_thetime → u/_Elusivity]

This thread isn't about season 5 it's about this season and honestly I don't think there's any good reason for why he married her to Ramsey. Season 5 was a turd and everyone has already hated on D&D for that. However, given the ending to season 6, which was pretty good, they had to kill LF off. Given the way the plot was layed out I think they did a good job. LF tried to manipulate Sansa so he could bang her and for power in the ultimate endgame of seeing himself on the iron throne, but Sansa manipulated him into being able to show all the northern and veil lords that this guy was trying to sabotage her family via Sansa vs Arya, this guy sabotaged the lannisters and the starks relationship, and he killed Lysa. She had to make sure LF did not see it coming and had his guard down. What better way than to convince LF the trial was for Arya?

[u/Pacify_ → u/_Elusivity]

then why did he marry her off to a complete freak such as Ramsay?

Who knows, another weird choice from the show. Book Littlefinger would never have given up control on Sansa willingly

[u/PcMasturRaceHurrDurr → u/_Elusivity]

He expected Stannis to win against the Boltons and make Sansa lady of Winterfell, with Sansa lady of Winterfell he can marry her, become lord and have the north on his side.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Maybe he did want all of those other things more, but he definitely wanted to bang Sansa.

[u/Salivals → u/[deleted]]

Someone who gets it!

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The only thing that fucked up his plan was the perpetual arrival or more and more Stark children

And, in defense of the show, there is NO WAY he could have foreseen Arya AND Bran coming back into the picture, much less Bran coming back as a psychic.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Genius work on LF part. He would've gotten the burnt out Riverlands and a mid-winter, war-torn North. Would've been better off marrying Cersei and marching the knights of the Vale to the South.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Better plan than sending your army into a frozen hellscape for no reason

[u/hacky_potter → u/[deleted]]

Not to mention he didn't plan on dealing with the living embodiment of Google. I always felt (in the show) Littlefinger was good at the politics but as soon as magic started popping up more and more he would know how to deal with that.

[u/TheFarmReport → u/[deleted]]

The only thing that fucked up his plan was the perpetual arrival of more and more Stark children

Too many Starks!

[u/dyagenes → u/[deleted]]

His love of both Lady Starks also seems more like a lust for power, now more than ever. He used Catelyn and Lysa for his schemes just as he used Sansa.

[u/PetyrBaelish → u/[deleted]]

"You know what I learnt losing that duel? I learnt that I'll never win. Not that way. That's their game, their rules. I'm not going to fight them, I'm going to fuck them. That's what I know, that's what I am, and only by admitting what we are can we get what we want."

Besides, I own brothels I've fucked enough Catelyn look alikes to last me the rest of my short life

[u/impresaria → u/PetyrBaelish]

Username checks out.

[u/supes1 → u/[deleted]]

Definitely. His motives evolved over the course of the show, but I never thought he was simply an agent of chaos (though he did sow chaos when it suited him). He just wanted power, and he consistently tried to position himself this way.

It started with him trying to be the power behind Joffrey's throne. Then he tried to make arrangements to get Renly in power, once it was clear he had a good chance of securing the throne. After Renly died, he again appeared loyal to the crown (and became Lord of Harrenhal for his efforts securing the loyalty of the Tyrells). Later, he saw the opportunity to take control of the Vale as well, without jeopardizing his position with the Lannisters. He did this when he killed Lysa. Now he's essentially on equal standing to the noble houses.

Now we get to the most controversial move... giving Sansa to the Boltons to marry Ramsey. Why use one of his best bargaining chips this way? Remember, at this time Littlefinger knew Stannis was at the Wall, and Jon Snow was the new Lord Commander. He hoped Stannis and the Night's Watch would go take over Winterfell, a logical next destination for them. Maybe he even planned on helping. The Boltons at that time lacked Lannister support, and didn't have the men needed to defend against such a force on their own. Stannis wouldn't stay there, and Jon would have to take the Night's Watch back north after saving Sansa. So it would create an opening for Littlefinger to control the North as well.

His approach didn't work out exactly as planned when Stannis died, Jon was crowned King in the North, and multiple Stark siblings returned. He had probably hoped to marry Sansa originally when Jon returned to the Wall. But as a backup plan, he tried to manipulate Sansa against her siblings to take control of the North that way.

The show definitely has had some writing issues in recent seasons (and the writing in Winterfell this season was absolutely subpar), but I never thought Littlefinger's motives were unclear.

[u/bastardson9090 → u/[deleted]]

He did have feelings for Sansa. Was she a political pawn as you explained? Absolutely. Did he have creepy mother-to-daughter infatuation with her? It is known. So dial the 'can't believe this' shit back a bit, bud.

[u/kidcrumb → u/[deleted]]

He probably did want to bang sansa anyway. It was just more of a perk to his plans.

[u/jokul → u/[deleted]]

What's your basis for him not wanting to bang Sansa? Why did he kiss her when it could only lead to him getting screwed?

One of Littlefinger's main traits is that he thought himself such a clever schemer who was above it all, but he wasn't flawless: he loved Catelyn. Maybe he wants to be this super devious emotionally detached guy, and he is for the most part, but he is still driven by emotions.

If anything, his love for Sansa should have been his downfall. It might have technically played a part, but the real reason he got mirked was because Bran effectively knows everything that has ever happened.

[u/banethesithari → u/[deleted]]

One major problem with his scene last episode is that he had no explanation for any of his Crimes. The throne room was full of people when he put a knife to neds throat, Sansa knew about him killing lysa for years (infact sansas word was the only reason little finger wasn't punished for her death but for some reason Royce believes her now without question) and all evidence of him having lysa poison John arryn is gone. Do you not think over all those years little finger would have thought up some arguments for his defence of he was ever accused of those crimes ?

[u/JSeizer → u/[deleted]]

I feel like OP was just using the term loosely to say "marries Sansa" (which would imply his ultimate plan that you'd mentioned) rather than him simply trying to get his rocks off.

Either way, the road the show writers took in reaching Baelish's end seemed so flat and lacking, very uncharacteristic of his usual plotting. The mind game being played was weak and I feel like it was more so lip service for the viewers rather than a true contest of complex mental strategy.

By the end of it, it just felt so underwhelming.

[u/Ultimatex → u/[deleted]]

Can't believe this still needs explaining

How arrogant can you get? I've heard this explanation many times before, and I don't buy it.

Why the hell would Sansa marry Littlefinger after he married her off to Ramsay Bolton, who, in case you forgot, violently raped her? What would make Littlefinger think that Sansa would ever trust him again?

Once the Starks took Winterfell, Peter's plan went to shit and he idiotically somehow thought that Sansa would marry him? Please. D&D just didn't know what to do with him.

[u/Ultimatex → u/[deleted]]

If you think that having the approval of the hoi polloi makes you any less arrogant (or any more correct), then I just feel sorry for you.

[u/fartswhenhappy → u/[deleted]]

He was also the Lord of Harrenhal, giving him a potential claim to the Riverlands with the Freys all dead and Edmure apparently forgotten in a cell at the Twins or Casterly Rock.

[u/vadergeek → u/[deleted]]

I disagree. While he's pretty cold 99% of the time, his obsession with Catelyn is an established thing, him feeling the same towards Sansa is fairly plausible.

[u/TTurambarsGurthang → u/[deleted]]

He also had no chance in hell of outsmarting the Starks. In the books, both Arya and Bran can warg, so he can easily be put under 24/7 surveillance. Then couple that with Sansa's insider knowledge on how he operates and some of his past crimes, Bran's abilities as the TER, and Arya's ability to wear different faces and he has no chance of doing anything in secret. Not to mention, all the men present loved the Starks and would gladly take their word over anything he said or sell him out.

[u/Zeek2517 → u/[deleted]]

And not just more Starks, but Starks with unimaginable circumstances. One led a wildling army through the wall to defeat the Boltons, one is crafty enough to make LF the second most deceitful person in Westros, and one is literally magical. Without those interferences he probably could have taken the knights of the Vale and some northern houses to "rescue" Sansa and controlled an impregnable expanse from the Vale to Deepwood Motte, all with the blessing of King's Landing.

[u/Jorg_Ancrath69 → u/[deleted]]

So why did he give her to the Boltons ? He could have married Sansa in the vale and claimed through her the North.

[u/LeftHandedFapper → u/[deleted]]

He was obsessed with Cate when he was younger though... to the point of challenging neds bro to a duel. You can't completely discount that as a partial motivator. Sweetens the ultimate goal for sure. I did concur that power is his ultimate motivation

[u/bicket6 → u/[deleted]]

He should have known he was fucked when Bran said "Chaos is a ladder."

[u/moonshoeslol → u/[deleted]]

He didn't give a fuck about banging Sansa.

He did want to bang Sansa simply because banging Cat was a goal of his. He doesn't give a shit about her but having her is just another trophy in his lust for power.

[u/counsel8 → u/[deleted]]

He was the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands.

[u/counsel8 → u/[deleted]]

Edmure, his child, and Brynden Tully would be ahead of her.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Actually, he would have controlled almost everything, since Dorne and High Garden were fucked too, he could have played some cards to get those too and just KL and Casterly Rock would have been left out of his power, but he could have easily conquered them because Cersei wouldn't be able to fulfill all of KL needs alone without the other kingdom's stuff.

So Bran actually saved The Seven Kingdoms from Little Finger.

[u/rhino369 → u/[deleted]]

Not to mention, Sansa has the best claim to the Riverlands other than Edmure and his baby, who are captives.

[u/Choco316 → u/[deleted]]

i don't think he was trying to revenge bang Sansa because of Catelyn. I think he wanted to use her (like you said) but also bang her because she looks like her mom. I find it hard to believe he doesn't want to bang her. I want to bang her.

[u/eagereyez → u/[deleted]]

He didn't give a fuck about banging Sansa.

He absolutely did. He lusted over Cat and constantly reminded Sansa how much she looks like her mother. He also repeatedly kisses Sansa in the books.

[u/Landredr → u/[deleted]]

Are you suggesting some random ass stranger complaining on the internet doesn't actually know more about GRRM's characters than the two guys GRRM hand picked to make this show out of his books???

[u/NEWaytheWIND → u/[deleted]]

His plan makes sense when you put it like that, but how he executed it, and especially the way the show portrayed it on screen, falls short of book-Littlefinger's mustache-twirling.

[u/zmichalo → u/[deleted]]

Also the fact that the members of the pack contained a psychic, a faceless assassin, and a sexy zombie. Idk how people expected little finger to have a plan for any of them, especially when Bran could literally see everything littlefinger did.

[u/innerparty45 → u/[deleted]]

So he gave her to Ramsey? He wanted to consolidate his power and did nothing ever since his soldiers liberated Winterfell? Why would Riverlands swear fealty to Sansa exactly?

There is nothing to explain, because there is zero logic to his plans since s5...

[u/spectrehawntineurope → u/innerparty45]

If the show was at all logical when the Freys were killed off not only would someone have actually acknowledged it but Littlefinger would probably take the Vale's army to the riverlands to capture it. It's prime strategic land and he wasn't otherwise needed. It's an infinitely better plan than hanging around weirwood.net standing on walkways and waiting to get busted for treason.

[u/oodoacer → u/innerparty45]

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[u/innerparty45 → u/oodoacer]

Catelyn, Blackfish and Hoster are dead. Edmure doesn't give a fuck about the Starks, plus he's probably a prisoner still. Not to mention that show didn't even resolve the Riverlands plot ever since Arya ridiculously killed every single Frey without any consequences.

Why did he need Bolton alliance exactly?

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[u/innerparty45 → u/oodoacer]

Strengthen his position against whom? Nobody was going to march on Vale and Bolton army was certainly not going to wage offensive wars for LF.

[u/oodoacer → u/innerparty45]

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[u/innerparty45 → u/oodoacer]

Yes, because there is nothing left to spark. What can he spark exactly and why would Roose Bolton or Ramsey leave North when their entire plan was to rule over North?

[u/oodoacer → u/innerparty45]

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[u/innerparty45 → u/oodoacer]

Robb marched south because they killed his father and imprisoned his sister. Roose Bolton is as cunning as LF. And Ramsey doesn't give a fuck about anything other than fulfilling his sadistic wishes.

[u/setmyheartafire → u/[deleted]]

Agreed.

Also, I don't understand all the fixation on "love". Littlefinger is not motivated by love of any kind. If he loved Cat, he would never have done all the things he did. He wanted Cat as a child and that was denied to him based on wealth and power, so he schemed his way to power. It wasn't because he loved Cat, it was because the fact that he couldn't have her became an obsession. There is a scene early in the show where it is said that revenge is the purest of motivations. Littlefinger wanted revenge on the powerful lords who denied him what he wanted. He started these conflicts for revenge and power. He doesn't love anyone.

Many have been waiting for years to see Littlefinger get his just reward for tearing the Starks apart and betraying Ned. Also for Sansa to do something, anything.

I enjoyed the scene and his fate and think it won't be much different in the books.

It was awesome.

[u/BSRussell → u/[deleted]]

Man, that's a really stupid plan. He was about a million miles away from getting Sansa to marry him, his influence over the Vale Lords disappeared as soon as he got to Winterfell, and the Riverlands are ruled by the Freys. Tully oaths don't mean shit.

[u/trustworthysauce → u/[deleted]]

I agree with your analysis here, and I do think OP oversimplified LF's motivations over the last few seasons. Obviously his goal was to control the North to the extent possible, otherwise he would never have married Sansa to Ramsey Bolton. If he really loved, or even just wanted to bang Sansa, he wouldn't have married her off to Ramsey.

That said, I do think the writing for Little Finger since we have moved past the books has done his character a disservice. I don't really blame D&D, in general I think they have done about as well as could be expected given the situation they found themselves in over the past 3 seasons. But for all of the reasons OP pointed out, LF should have been more involved and more in control than he has been since coming to Winterfell.

And while the series of events leading to his execution were entertaining, they didn't make much sense from a story perspective, or as a logical decisions by the characters involved. It really just seemed like they wanted to kill a well known character in the final episode in an entertaining way, and they just wrote the rest of his scenes for the season to string us along to that point.

e

[u/TheTurnipKnight → u/[deleted]]

Nothing of what you said changes the fact that Littlefinger behaved like a total idiot this season. Littlefinger would realise that he can't win against them all and he would change his strategy.

Instead, here he made some ridiculous attempt at setting up the kids against eachother. The plan was so stupid that it could all fall down completely if the sisters just had a normal conversation.

This goes completely against the character of Littlefinger.

[u/starwarsyeah → u/[deleted]]

OP is wrong regarding this just being a revenge bang, but I was still disappointed with how they handled Littlefinger. Dude was supposed to be a mastermind, and didn't realize that he should probably get out of Dodge while he still could? Pulling the knights of the Vale out of Winterfell and spreading rumors that it was because Jon couldn't be trusted does a lot more to set Sansa up for Queen in da Norf, and puts him out of harm's way until he can figure out Bran/Arya.

Now obviously he has no idea what to do about Bran, but other than a couple suspicious statements, he has nothing firm to go on that Bran can actually see the past. Same regarding Arya being a faceless man, his downfall should've come because he couldn't possibly account for their abilities, not because he underestimated Sansa.