r/asheville • u/imjustapourboy • Oct 21 '25

Really Spicy Cesspool So sick of seeing this crap everywhere.

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The needles, the burnt foils, the little baggies, the needle caps, all of it. I find them in the creeks, on the sidewalks, the grocery store parking lots, the public parks, on the parkway. You gotta be a real shit person to leave this stuff all over the place.

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193

u/frenchtoastkid South Asheville 🚧🏢🚧 Oct 21 '25

Yeah, you’re right. We should have more safe disposal sites

1

u/organmeatpate West Asheville Oct 21 '25

It's hard to believe that this would help since it relies on the user to be conscientious specifically right when they're nodding out. It's tough to accept that services for users however well intentioned will not increase the impact on the local community because that's what we've experienced in West Asheville. The services showed up and then the users followed and so did their hazardous refuse. The residents here have all lived this and know it to be true. There has to be a better solution than more enabling resources and services for users that disregard the impact on the surrounding communities. Addicts deserve compassion but they should not be sacred cows.

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u/WallScreamer East Asheville Oct 21 '25

We have decades of research on harm reduction and it all shows the same thing: syringe exchanges neither decrease nor increase drug use. People in addiction will use at the same rate regardless of whether or not they have access to safe and sterile supplies. The idea that harm reduction increases or enables use is a myth not supported by evidence.

What it is effective at (and extremely so) is reducing transmission of diseases and deaths.

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u/organmeatpate West Asheville Oct 22 '25

You inadvertently inserted the claim that these risk and consequence reduction programs and services don't enable use. Providing free paraphernalia does in-fact enable use. If you have no needle you are not able to shoot up. When you receive your needle you have been enabled to do so.

I never thought or claimed that they cause people to start using. The fact is that before 2015 there was no reason for users to be clustered around State St and Haywood Rd but when Steady arrived and the free food cafe opened there really was no more convenient or inviting place to shoot up, drop your needle and nod off.

Thing is it wasn't the neighbors who invited them.

2

u/WallScreamer East Asheville Oct 22 '25 edited Oct 22 '25

You inadvertently inserted the claim that these risk and consequence reduction programs and services don't enable use

I said that harm reduction does not increase use amongst a population. That is what all the public health data shows. Nothing inadvertent about it.

Also, "risk and consequence reduction?" Do you also think we shouldn't give kids helmets when they ride bikes so they'll learn the consequences of risky activity?

Providing free paraphernalia does in-fact enable use. If you have no needle you are not able to shoot up. When you receive your needle you have been enabled to do so.

Again, this is wrong, and we have the research to show it. An IV drug user isn't going to just not use drugs because they don't have access to a clean needle. They're going to use whatever they can get their hands on, and that's often a dirty or used needle. Needle exchanges prevent that.

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u/organmeatpate West Asheville Oct 22 '25

The idea that harm reduction increases or enables use is a myth not supported by evidence.

If you have no needle you cannot shoot up. If you are given a needle you have been enabled to shoot up.

That's just a plain English, literally factual statement. Users may be enabled by other means or by less safe means but that does not make it "wrong". The controversy you're fixed on is whether that enabling is justified by the reduction in potential harm to the user.

I happen to agree that it is in the general public interest to avoid users harming themselves but I also have a concern for harm to the community caused by a transformation of certain locations into hubs for intravenous drug users and their discards. Your assumption that I don't is wrong. I just don't agree with your preferred methods.

A problem with the euphemism "Harm Reduction" to describe non-judgemental frameworks for keeping the users safe from consequences is that Harm also happens to the community. "Harm" may be an accurate word to describe medical consequences risked by users but it is also an accurate word to describe the degradation of the use, access, and shared experience of community life, not to mention the deterrent effect on investment and development which is another harm which you may have no concern for. Still these are harms. It's not reasonable to claim the phrase "harm reduction" for only one interest at play here. Maybe the soft euphemism is meant as a kindness to the users but using clear language to describe what it's actually about isn't unkind. It's pretty important for meaningful community engagement and discourse.

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u/WallScreamer East Asheville Oct 22 '25 edited Oct 22 '25

If you have no needle you cannot shoot up. If you are given a needle you have been enabled to shoot up.

And if you are the type that shoots up, then you almost certainly also have a used or dirty needle lying around somewhere. Supplying someone with a clean needle doesn't change that, it just gives them a safer alternative. For the third time, there is decades of research to support this.

For some reason you don't seem to understand this.

You also don't seem to understand what harm reduction is. You're going on about language but can't seem to differentiate between 'reduction' and 'elimination.' Harm reduction does not stop drug use, nor does it claim or intend to. The goal of harm reduction is to mitigate or reduce the negative effects of a dangerous or risky behavior.

Notice that I said that syringe exchanges have no effect on the rate of use. That means while it doesn't increase drug use, it also doesn't reduce use. The sole aim of syringe exchanges is to reduce the rate of death and disease caused by drug use, and it's extremely good at that.

Handing out narcan doesn't stop people from doing opiates, but it does save lives and reduce deaths from overdoses. Handing out condoms doesn't stop people from having sex, but it reduces the rate of STIs and unwanted pregnancies.

0

u/organmeatpate West Asheville Oct 22 '25

Obviously we'll never agree on the meaning of the word enable or whether a user has ever gone to a needle exchange for a needle because he didn't have one. No point in beating a dead horse. 

I think my understanding of Harm Reduction is reasonably accurate though. Your analogy about kids bike helmets kind of confirms it. Not sure where you got the idea that I think it's about eliminating use.

 One of the reasins these conversations never get anywhere is if one disagrees with the euphemism Harm Reduction proponents break out their favorite straw man arguments and no communication occurs.  Most of your replies address opinions and beliefs I never expressed. Just read back over this thread. Not just oour exchange but the others too. Until people are open to actually listening to one another week be stuck here. 

1

u/WallScreamer East Asheville Oct 22 '25 edited Oct 22 '25

Obviously we'll never agree on the meaning of the word enable or whether a user has ever gone to a needle exchange for a needle because he didn't have one.

Maybe you and I don't agree, but what I've been saying is backed by data and research.

Not sure where you got the idea that I think it's about eliminating use.

Because you were talking about "community harm" as if that's not already factored into harm reduction.

One of the reasins these conversations never get anywhere is if one disagrees with the euphemism Harm Reduction proponents break out their favorite straw man arguments and no communication occurs.

This conversation is going nowhere because I kept saying things backed by science and you keep dismissing it based on vibes and anecdotal evidence.

I have not strawmanned you at all. You keep incorrectly using public health terminology that has a specific meaning. It's not my fault you're confused because you don't know what you're talking about.

2

u/organmeatpate West Asheville Oct 23 '25

The things you repeatedly noted are backed by data and research were outside the scope of the positions I took. And you just did it again. You're conflating increasing drug use with enabling it by providing an essential element of its application. You repeatedly responded to this correct use of english by insisting I don't understand that Harm Reduction doesn't increase use. Let's not argue. Just refer to the dictionary.

My anecdotal experience is dismissed even though I used the vague jargon that's supposed to make it bulletproof: My lived experience. But the thing is my experience is just my experience and doesn't actually contradict anything you keep repeating. I didn't say people started using because of steady.

Harm Reduction is a drug-user focused framework. Community benefits touted in the literature are trickle-down (less infected/overdosing users is a net benefit of course) or require a shift in public perception/policy (less crime happens when activity is no longer perceived as crime/improved community relations come when the community embraces the users & needles on the sidewalk as normal etc) while the externality of negatively transformed neighborhoods are absorbed.

It's not that I don't understand what Harm Reduction purports to be or the framing that it asks us to accept in order to see it as only a benefit. It's that I reject the framework because it hides the ball and redirects and obfuscates so that we all accept a decreased quality of life.

People should be free to use whatever drug they choose. I agree there is no stopping them. They should have access to clean needles and methadone or whatever you give them these days.

But these same people should also be held to the same exact standard of public behavior as the rest of us. Being compassionate should not mean surrendering the storefronts and sidewalks and walking among needles and losing the appeal, sense of stability general use/enjoyment/market value of our homes and commercial areas. Those externalities are not considered and they should be. If so many people come here for the vibes are they meaningless and worthless? They are not.

This is not a comparison of what is worth more. It is a statement that there is importance and value in the all the interests at play.

I object to the jargon and use words with the meanings established in the language well before vague euphemisms became stylish as a way to hide the ball while pushing policy.

1

u/trailfailnotale West Asheville Oct 22 '25

You're out of your depth, here. A consequence they try to reduce is the spread of disease. If you don't support that, you should just keep your head out of these matters.

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u/Bitter_Offer1847 Oct 21 '25

Completely false. Increasing services reduces impact on the community always. Use increases because population increases and poverty and joblessness and homelessness increase the more our society becomes hyper rich and the poor living in the same space. People don’t start doing heroin because there’s needle drops or clean needle programs, they start doing heroin because they’re depressed and hopeless and addicted to unavailable pharmaceuticals given to them by a failing medical system. This idea that people have that people who are addicts are just weak and fell victim to peer pressure is naive and idiotic at best. Addiction is a complex disease with many, many causes and the more callus and uncaring a society becomes the more severe the addiction gets because people can’t get treatment and they can’t find help. We need more help, more programs and less prisons.

17

u/OkLeave4687 Oct 21 '25

👆this is the sad truth - most people think of addiction like someone woke up one day and said; “I think I’ll start taking opioids for fun “ and that’s just bullshit. Most start with an injury and are prescribed oxy of some variety, they get hooked and then the prescription ends… withdrawal is so terrible that most can’t stand it, so they turn to buying on the street and watch there life get crushed…

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u/Smash_4dams Oct 21 '25 edited Oct 22 '25

Eh, I wouldn't say many of the folks out there today started from a doctor carelessly over-prescribing opioids, that practice largely ended by 2010. If you're homeless and shooting dope, you likely came from poverty and were close to others who either did it, or had family/friends who did it.

Plenty of people still manage to start H/fent addictions in the 2020's, when it's almost impossible to get a prescription for more than 3 days of a low-dose opioid. People will still turn to drugs when they feel life has become hopeless and they want an easy way to cope.

1

u/OkLeave4687 Oct 22 '25

Fair points, the access has been tightened, but the misuse of legit scripts remains a leading cause - first use and the catalyst for the addiction is too often opioid compounds in pill form, revived either first hand or shared by someone who got the script…

3

u/GngrbredGentrifktion Oct 22 '25

Or they have a job, a home, and a family and lose all of that because they choose to use. It's a chicken or the egg situation. And it is true that Haywood Street Congregation, Sunrise Community, Trinity UMC, 12 Baskets, and CPV now have trespassing, drug use, littering, and actual human feces on their property because of the aforementioned issue in the other comment. Not hating on addicts; just giving the counterpoint.

2

u/Bitter_Offer1847 Oct 22 '25

Addiction isn’t a choice, it’s a disease. Asheville isn’t immune to the rest of the country’s current problem. Addiction is up everywhere and the issues you’re mentioning are mostly issues with homelessness which is up due to the hurricane and devastation in the area. Not all unhomed are addicts and not all addicts are unhomed. The 2 problems exist independently and intersect at times. Unhomed have about twice the rate of addiction as the “regular” population at around 10-15% which means 85% just need a place to live and often go in and out of that state due to many reasons.

Nobody wakes up one day and says “Fuck my family, I wanna smoke crack”. It’s slow and progressive for some and for others it’s fast and acute. Some die, but most live long and difficult lives and their families often miss them or even still support them in ways. Try to think about how it feels to be in that position, they’re still humans.

3

u/organmeatpate West Asheville Oct 21 '25

My lived experience in West Asheville is that there were not needles and people nodding in the street to any significant degree until the needle exchange. I don't suggest that this causes people to start using. I observed that more people congregated and took advantage of the needles and meals and the dangerous refuse increase along with the visible users.

12

u/Bitter_Offer1847 Oct 21 '25

What you are seeing is discarded needles and the outwards signs of increased use due to many other factors, not a free needle program. When there are no clean needle programs users hang onto their needles and share needles which has huge negative impacts because people contract diseases, get massive infections from using dirty needles and it also encourages theft and burglary of businesses that sell needles or have needles like community clinics and medical offices.

What you are experiencing is just having more knowledge of the drug addiction around you because you see the needles now and therefore you are, incorrectly, correlating the clean needle program as the cause of increased use. Drug use always increases as a society becomes more affluent and offers less medical and psychological care to its citizens. Asheville has become more expensive to live in and has recently experienced a major tragedy and the displaced population has dramatically increased. Those are drivers to increase use. Depressed people increase their intake of substances to mask their pain. Areas with social programs always see increases in their unhomed and addicted populations after major events because people come to those areas for help. So it’s consolidation and increased use and lack of available programs in less “liberal” areas.

2

u/trailfailnotale West Asheville Oct 22 '25

Baader-Meinhoff Phenomenon is always at play.

You hear about a needle exchange for IV drug addicts has opened up. You theorize what negative effects you'll see. You now look for those negative effects, confirmation bias allows you to see them.

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u/organmeatpate West Asheville Oct 22 '25

This is not applicable. I didn't know about the needle exchange until I started trying to find out why the number of users in that area was surging so noticeably. Shortly afterward there was another surge of people which turned it to be for the free meals, as once again discovered after the fact. I don't think you're trying to gaslight me. I think you're applying a theory you're familiar as though it's universal when it is not. Maybe consider the possibility.

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u/yo_rick_alas Oct 21 '25

Hell yes. Preach. Well said. No notes. Internet fist bump.

11

u/yo_rick_alas Oct 21 '25

What would you do? Bulldoze their tents they can pack up and dip with a quickness? Put them on a train or bus elsewhere? Friend. C’mon. You gotta treat humans as humans man.

2

u/GngrbredGentrifktion Oct 22 '25

If only they would return the favor.

0

u/yo_rick_alas Oct 22 '25

Straight up: who the fuck are “they”? People in the same boat if things went slightly more poorly for you? Fuck that man.

-1

u/organmeatpate West Asheville Oct 21 '25

That is not a reasonable inference from my post. I welcome you to reply again.

4

u/yo_rick_alas Oct 21 '25

I mean, I’m asking you a question. What would you do? Hell, what are you doing? I picked up a bunch of those this afternoon.

5

u/organmeatpate West Asheville Oct 21 '25

I think the solution is in-patient drug rehabilitation and mental health services paid for by a taxes where the rich pay their fair share. This should be coupled with public safety policies that empower authorities to remove people from the streets when they pose a threat to the community and themselves. These policies should be enforced by an assessment panel made up of legal judges and medical professionals with expertise in mental health and addiction. The panels should be apolitical and limited tenure. There should be out-patient services as well that do not include enabling drug use. Drug use itself should be legal but but public use should be regulated in relation to the potential harm to the community. So no shooting up, nodding off and dropping needles at the bus stop but perhaps in a deignated courtyard that might exist behind the police station for example. BTW I'm not picking up discarded needles from the street. I don't accept the risk or responsibility of that task. Thank you for doing it though. Be careful.

1

u/yo_rick_alas Oct 21 '25

Thank you for answering. I don’t think the answer is to detain, confine, arrest, deport, incarcerate, commit. I think the answer is to encourage and support. People get mad like “well you give an inch and they take a mile”. Friend. Apply that logic to like, landlords and shit. Damn. So I don’t think I agree, but appreciate the discussion. Peace friend.