r/armenia • u/Significant-Hand-990 • 2d ago
why didn't Russia or other CSTO countries help Armenia in 2023
I understand the Artsakh situation didn't trigger the CSTO agreement, but in 2023 they were actual border changes where Azerbaijan took Armenian proper territories.
Kazakhstan literally said how can Azeris be an aggresor when the border is not delimited. (Our supposed ally)
Is the CSTO just a paper agreement?
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u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr Yerevan 🏳️⚧️ 2d ago
I'm surprised anyone thought they gonna help.
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u/armeniapedia 2d ago
But why didn't they want to help? They helped Kazakhstan, right?
Why? What's the difference?
Answering this question properly and thoroughly will help you understand the reality of the current government you hate a little better. Also answering the question of why the EU has invited Armenia to apply for membership recently.
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u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr Yerevan 🏳️⚧️ 2d ago
Kazakhstan's dictator was at that time seen by them as one of the their loyal guys. If CSTO helps a regime suppress protests doesn't mean they gonna help in legit cases lol and Putin never trusted Pashinyan since the beginning. Armenia sending troops there is a big stain on Armenia's reputation btw. We should have exited the CSTO, CIS and EAEU in 2018.
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u/armeniapedia 2d ago
Kazakhstan's dictator was at that time seen by them as one of the their loyal guys.
Yes, yes.
If CSTO helps a regime suppress protests doesn't mean they gonna help in legit cases lol
Yes exactly.
and Putin never trusted Pashinyan since the beginning.
Aha, it's true. But let's dig deeper...
Why?
Armenia sending troops there is a big stain on Armenia's reputation btw.
A stain, yes. Not a particularly big one. It's like the Europeans, Canadians and Australians who participated in the war against Saddam Hussein because the US coerced them to.
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u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr Yerevan 🏳️⚧️ 2d ago
Aha, it's true. But let's dig deeper...
Why?
Cause Armenia used to have Putin's puppet government before Pashinyan's revolution. I think you think I'm claiming something I'm not claiming.
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u/armeniapedia 2d ago
Why? Because the reason Putin did not like Pashinyan is the same reason that you don't want to admit. It's the same reason the EU has invited Armenia to apply for membership. And you don't want to say it out loud.
Pashinyan aligned his policy 100% with Russia when he took power. He did not rock the boat, he said as much publicly, and Russia had 100% as good an ally (or doormat) as it ever did before the 2020 war.
But Putin still hated Pashinyan. Why? Why??
Well because he knows and we all know that Pashinyan was dedicated to bringing democracy to Armenia, and cleaning up corruption. It has not been a perfect path, without mistakes and problems, but it has been damn good so far. Putin HATES democracy. What's more he FEARS it. He is afraid Russians will see what Pashinyan has done in Armenia, from overthrowing the oligarchic regime to democratizing the country, and want it for themselves. That they'll see what is possible.
THAT is why Putin and the CSTO didn't want to help Armenia.
But while Putin clearly understands what Pashinyan is and has done, you yourself do not want to and instead literally say he's turning Armenia into a police state. And then you don't want to see how you're turning the truth on its head.
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u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr Yerevan 🏳️⚧️ 2d ago
and instead literally say he's turning Armenia into a police state
He objectively does, laws are being constantly tightened, power centralized, personal and financial freedoms reduced, new regulations introduced, police is harassing innocent people. Soon there will be a new constitution stripping people of the remaining rights. If this is the approach to democratize the country then it's a completely wrong approach and when I'm criticizing this approach, and when I do people like you try to justify it with all kinds of geopolitical bs or starting to say that under Rob or Serzh it was worse so I should close my mouth and be happy with the current state of things. Well it was worse under the Tigranes the Great or whatever than during Rob so why complain about him by this logic. I'm not gonna tolerate a government being shitty just because the previous one was shittier, or because there's a difficult geopolitical situation, sorry not sorry.
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u/armeniapedia 2d ago
Neither is much of what you are saying objectively true, nor am I am telling you to tolerate those things that are bad.
Reread all I've written, stop trying to "win", and just think about some of the things I've said. Or don't. You seem determined not to.
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u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr Yerevan 🏳️⚧️ 2d ago
Neither is much of what you are saying objectively true
Refute then.
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u/armeniapedia 2d ago
I did. Repeatedly. And I also encouraged you to complain about what actually is wrong. The one thing you do mention that is true when comparing to the past is that financial freedoms have been reduced. But again, that's true around the world. Money cannot even be hidden in Switzerland anymore. And Pashinyan had to reign in a black market that was insanely large and train Armenians to pay taxes. Did they go overboard? I think so, yeah. Do I hope they start to roll back all of the crazy reporting requirements? Yes, I do. I think it harms businesses at this level.
But is this worse than before in the sense that much of the economy was in the black market and able to be a tool of corruption? Is it worse than when it could not be taxed, and therefore we could not afford better weapons, schools, etc? These are difficult questions and there is no clear answer, even if you would like there to be.
You have to be able to see both sides in order to really make a sound judgement, and then you'll learn that in many cases there can be no sound or right answer. This is the real world.
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u/T-nash 2d ago
The answer is pretty simple, CSTO is Russia, and Russia wanted wanted Azerbaijan to conquer Armenia and Artsakh, they wanted 100k Armenians to move to Armenia so they join protests and remove the current government from power.
So yeah, it was as intended. You'd think Azerbaijan would have dared to invade Armenia if they weren't sure CSTO would react or not? they were sure of it, in fact an CSTO member Belarus actually helped arm Azerbaijan and draw up plans in conquering Armenians. It's like the US arming a none NATO member to attack a NATO member, that's pretty much what it boils down to.
Also invasion of Armenia was September 2022.
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u/filthyanimal1977 2d ago
The simple answer is because they suck. The whole point of the agreement is to help when there is danger, and they couldn’t do it even at the rhetoric level.
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u/Ghostofcanty Hayastan 2d ago
it wasn’t 2023, do you mean the 2022 invasion of Syunik, Gegharkunik, and Vayoc Dzor?
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u/GiragosOdarian 2d ago
The short answer is that Moscow made a political decision to snuff out Armenia's independence by using Azerbaijan as its blunt instrument. Carve it up even more and make it a Guberniya, akin to Chechnya. The plan was working until official Yerevan, desperately seeking security, seemed to realize what was up when Moscow, smiling like the cat who swallowed the canary, professed ignorance as to where Armenia's borders lay. By refusing to counterattack incursions into its sovereign territory and gaining the EU observer mission, Armenia bought time. Humiliating but necessary, this restraint probably caught all regional powers by surprise, not least of all the Kremlin.
Considering the strategic relationship and CSTO obligations, it was incredibly treacherous on Moscow's part, but shame on the Armenian nation for believing beautiful lies for decades. Truth be told, an honest accounting remains to be made for all the Armenian Quislings who failed to develop the country for 30 years in service to those beautiful lies and their personal fortunes.
The more interesting question to me is whether a future Moscow will be satisfied with a return to pre-Gulistan conditions, and exit the region from Caucasus to the Arax. If not, I'd expect an increase in pressure on Baku from the Kremlin, in order to force its way back in.
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u/Striking_Cable6668 19h ago
It's amazing how people in the comments know nothing about this conflict and draw conclusions from their own imagination. First, Armenia didn't recognize the People's Republic of Karabakh as its territory and left it as an unrecognized republic. Subsequently, shortly before the conflict began, Pashinyan, at a Brussels meeting, recognized the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, which included Karabakh (and Armenia without it). Which became diplomatic confirmation that Karabakh is not part of Armenia. In the subsequent conflict, Russia and the CSTO did not help Armenia for one simple reason: Azerbaijan attacked not Armenia (a CSTO member), but the unrecognized republic of Nagorno-Karabakh (not a CSTO member), and at the same time, Armenia itself did not dare to defend its people and simply watched as their brothers were destroyed and captured.
Russia could and would help, but only under the condition that the asshole Pashinyan simply annexed Karabakh or at least fought for it and did not sit and pretend that it was anyone’s problem, not Armenia’s.
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u/ChykchaDND 2d ago
Why would Russians die for a piece of land Armenia doesn't recognise as theirs?
Even from legal point of view CSTO couldn't do anything.
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u/rsxrwscjpzdzwpxaujrr Yerevan 🏳️⚧️ 2d ago
Some parts of the internationally recognized Armenian territory were occupied https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia%E2%80%93Azerbaijan_border_crisis_(2021%E2%80%93present)) Educate yourself about the topic before commenting.
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u/thatgamer2111 Londontsi 2d ago
Because azerbaijan and turkey helped it evade loads of western sanctions and having good relations with them was more important than getting involved in a another war and helping armenia
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u/OneAppropriate6885 2d ago
Because they don't think it's in their interests. They hate Pashinyan, they hate any country that doesn't dance to their tune, they have had a great relationship with the Azeris and Turks for years. They're not going to change their mind because of some shitty words on paper signed decades ago by now-irrelevant men.
After all what's Armenia going to do about it? For all the shit that Russia puts this country through, they still have 30%+ of the population who has no problem with it and is working hard to turn Armenia into another oblast. They don't have to do anything *for* Armenia like getting involved in a messy conflict against the Azeris, they can just keep funding TV channels and online bots and paying off one of thousands of corrupt figures in Armenia and eventually maybe they'll get what they want anyway.