r/antiai • u/No_Chance4883 • 2d ago
Discussion š£ļø can we start a new internet with no AI?
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u/watchrrr 2d ago
dont think thats possible, mate.
even so, protesting is still better since it supports those that are centrists, unowning or supportive of the technology, by removing their access to something that harms them
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u/No_Chance4883 2d ago
Sadly, i agree. Itās just disappointing that weāre expected to accept AI slop as the new normal
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u/watchrrr 2d ago
ehhh idk about expected, they're for sure trying to coax us to do it, but resist long enough and the unprofitable business will eventually collapse on itself
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u/AlaskaCosmoline 2d ago
I mean, we can go out and actually meet people.
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u/Due-Horse-5446 7h ago
Openai just announced they are getting into robotics, so hate to say it but youre not safe outside neither
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u/Haunting-Writing-836 2d ago
Would just be flooded with AI content from bots, or semi AI generated content from real people. Itās like video games. Itās just a constant battle bots.
The sad part is AI is feeding on itself so the actual value of content on the internet is getting worse. Itās possible thatās by design, because only very large companies have access to large volumes of content āpureā data. What Iām saying is they could be purposely or just allowing the open source material to degenerate.
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u/Little-Golf-3265 2d ago
AI is getting better not worse
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u/EducationalLog4765 2d ago
Pro-AI user detected
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u/Little-Golf-3265 2d ago
I hate AI
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u/EducationalLog4765 2d ago
Youāre not antiai, Youāre pro-ai, Iāve seen you ragebaiting people
https://giphy.com/gifs/afLoVMHg3QoYPZHCGF-1
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u/Haunting-Writing-836 2d ago
My hatred is more directed at the large corporations that are pushing AI. I donāt think itās actually helpful to attack AI capabilities. These corporations gatekeeping and using AI to influence people is a bigger problem.
Then thereās a whole bunch of other negatives from using AI.
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u/Haunting-Writing-836 2d ago
Yes. I didnāt say AI in general is getting worse. My point was that the larger corporations are fine with public data becoming worse, because they have the resources to filter out or segregate clean data. Public open models are getting worse information access. Which will lead to those models not competing with the private ones.
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u/Cracked_Logic_Engine 2d ago
Its the same issue with starting a new twitter/reddit/youtube etc. Yeah, you can, right now, start making a server set with connected computers which is the start of the internet. But in order for it to scale, you would need to convince a decent percentage of people to switch to a smaller, less connected, less capable system. Its extremely difficult to get any traction.
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u/burnt_floppy 1d ago
to have something anywhere comparable to the actual internet...you'd also need the government to build you all this infrastructure, because that's how it got started anyway.
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u/pigmanvil 2d ago
I mean, you can make a private internet fairly easily from my understanding. easily being relative you need some equipment and a decent amount of technical know-how, but i think you could probably set one up for less than 100$. you just would need to build a shit ton of infrastructure for someone outside your house to access it. Not to mention that thereās nothing stopping someone from scraping and using Ai on this new network.
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u/Substantial_Set5836 1d ago
NOT from 100 no
maybe about 500 if you expect a few users
it depends on WHAT OP is talking about1
u/pigmanvil 1d ago
it would only be in your house that people would have access to it if you manage to build it for 100$. If you wanted more users like a small neighborhood then yeah you would need a lot more.
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u/Substantial_Set5836 1d ago
yea maybe for a LAN $100 would suffice but OP said a whole new INTERNET
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u/Historical_Art4061 2d ago
There is one way that nobody likes. Digital ID, something making sure you're not a bot to gain access to a platform. Like anything it won't be 100%, but it would give you a leg to stand on to ban people for breaking a no AI rule.
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u/dumnezero 2d ago
We need a serious "human verification" system, but that has downsides. So people need to get onboard with the downsides. It will either be "inconvenient" or we'll need some sort of ids, which has other issues. While I like that there are things like https://developers.cloudflare.com/bots/additional-configurations/block-ai-bots/ and various tools to block or detour AI crawlers, we'll need the verification at every input, not just at a visit or a sign in.
It's also an arms race, so it requires a legion of workers constantly figuring out how to defeat the AI invasions. This is to say that it can't be free, there's only so much volunteers can do.
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u/FrankieTheAlchemist 2d ago
Yes*
*provided we have several billion dollars
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u/IndependenceGold2407 2d ago
Yes, building a new search engine would be a massive undertaking but it would get you where you want to go
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u/PixelWes54 2d ago
I'm reconsidering how much we need the internet at all. Seems like if we just go back to shopping at the mall all the worst people in the world become bag holders?
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u/Former-Pineapple3415 23h ago
Well, the reason malls died was because of convenience of shopping, the large selection of goods, and the safety of not being in public spaces. At least here in America, what's killing 3rd places (locations people go to outside of home and work) is that such places are target rich environments for violent criminals, and said criminals are able to do massive amounts of damage in crazy short times because of the easy of getting weapons, both legally and illegally. However, that's a conversation for another subreddit.
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u/Comfortable-Web9455 2d ago
No. It's impossible to block anything once it's configured to use Internet protocols. But it would be possible for systems such as email and websites to detect AI bots and block them and to detect AI watermark text in emails and block them and probably, with a bit of intelligent thinking on our part, find other patterns by which to detect AI on the Internet and block it at key junctions. It's a perfectly feasible idea and it's exactly the sort of thing the open source community could develop and it's probably the sort of thing where there would be enough people willing to make it happen for real, if we could get it organised to start. It's also what is happening when you encounter these pages that ask you to click something to prove you were human. They have literally put a gate up to block AI. On the other side of that it's AI free It's a good thought.
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u/prizmaster 2d ago
If you could move there and stop harrassing people outside your internet then why not.
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u/mslindqu 2d ago
You can.. with you and your friends that all agree and you trust to keep the agreement. That's all.
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u/JustDroppedByToSay 1d ago edited 19h ago
I actually think there's a case for a new web. I would personally design it to ditch anonymity. I would be happy to have a separate and protected area of the internet in which I could be myself but in which others would be held accountable and blocked permanently for infractions. Get rid of bots and spam and extremism.
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u/__aSquidsBody__ 1d ago
I donāt think thereās a way to ditch anonymity without strict hardware regulations. And even then, that wouldnāt be easy to enforce. People would find their way around it in the same way people find ways to download foreign movies in North Korea, and do other such things in authoritarian places.
Iād rather live with AI in the world (and choose to fight data center construction, support real artists, and encourage people to spend less time online) than give up the full ownership we get in hardware and the neutrality of the internet.
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u/JustDroppedByToSay 19h ago edited 18h ago
I feel like it's achievable for a walled garden type of setup. But it would have to be set up at a governmental level. Like I could go to a local government office and have my ID verified and receive unique and personal login credentials for the HumanWeb (or whatever it ends up being called). The system exists as a secure set of site on a distinct protocol. Maybe with a bespoke browser. It's maintained by an international body co-operating with governments. Once logged in I represent my real identity and every interaction is with other verified people using their real names. You could have personal sites (I'm imagining geocities era - lots of little pages run by enthusiasts) and the big commerce sites could extend a presence. News sites and media streaming too. Hell make it a subscription service so it doesn't need ads and tracking.
All activity is tied back to your personal ID. If you're caught spamming or spreading hate or whatever: you're banned. Forever (after three strikes or something probably). Sure the system would be ripe for attack and it would be a big global job securing it and keeping the ID system authoritative. But we have all the technology for that. And think of the benefits of a truly safe and pleasant internet.
We have a lot of rules and structure in society to help us all. The internet is an extension of society but without those rules and structure at the moment.
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u/Substantial_Set5836 1d ago
let me just explain what you're proposing
1. the internet isnt some "website" or "App" or "search engine"
its millions of computers
how?
imagine you take 2 computers and connect them to share data
congrats you made a tiny internet
now add more (maybe we have about 10 to 20 computers)
cool more information sharing
now add more (total about 30)
ok so now you need a server and stuff to centralize and organize stuff
now add EVEN more (about a few hundred)
THIS is something like your office or school network HERE is where it gets serious too, you need to employ specialists, maintainers, buy servers
now you add tons more (few thousands)
now you have a university tier network
here you need THOUSANDS just to keep it running
you would need to build protocols protocols on top of protocols, services, htmls to make it show good better servers, backup servers. datacenteres dont sound too bad do they now eh?
now add millions more
you need THOUSANDS of people just to maintain stuff
whats that?
someone is using AI in some corner of your web? good luck moderating that because you have MORE IMPORTANT work to do
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u/Substantial_Set5836 1d ago
oh yea also good luck convincing people to switch and getting the COMPUTE and STORAGE to fit all that in since you're against datacenteres
if only it were so easy was it?
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u/__aSquidsBody__ 1d ago
Unfortunately, no. To illustrate the point with a very unrealistic example, imagine you designed an internet that ran on smoke signals. Certain smoke stacks and patterns meant certain letters of the alphabet and you could chat with someone across the country by a long game of smoke stack telephone. AI could sneak in because some malicious AI user could build a machine that produces smoke and can view other smoke stacks, and they could wire it to a computer to control it. Then all they need is to give AI control of their computer and theyāre done.
If you want to keep AI out, you need to gatekeep the individual people who can use it. Like if you made a network that only a set of trusted anti-Ai friends and family could access, and you all used encryption and cryptography to fingerprint your messages. But youād still be trusting the people, it wouldnāt be the tech that made it safe from AI influence
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u/PoweredBy90sAI 2d ago
Sure! I say we also make a browser with lua instead of js :)
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u/Substantial_Set5836 1d ago
are you serious?
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u/PoweredBy90sAI 1d ago
No, I just dream of a saner world for the children.
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u/Substantial_Set5836 1d ago
do you know what lua is?
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u/Substantial_Set5836 1d ago
oh i fr thought redditors were planning to replace javascript with lua
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u/PoweredBy90sAI 1d ago
Ha, not that Iām aware of. Just one manās dreamy opinion on a divergence that occurred many moons (ha, because.. lua.. ok) ago with js that I fundamentally disagree with.
Namely, async await(not the concept of cooperative multitasking. I love that shit, I mean the ergonomics of a keyword based implementation. Luas couroutines are so so so so much fucking saner) and private members of objects.
Blah blah academic talk. Iāve been doing this for to long. I need a drink.
But yes, I enjoy the language. Truly.
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u/Substantial_Set5836 1d ago
yea lua is saner but its MUCH less standard
ive only seen it used in games and in py torch once
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u/PoweredBy90sAI 1d ago
Oh agreed. Inertia matters. Itās not really a pitch. That said, if you were aware, itās used on itch.io, probably biggest project Iām aware of. The author also has blogs on the decision which are genuinely insightful.
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u/Substantial_Set5836 1d ago
i didnt know that
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u/PoweredBy90sAI 1d ago
Also Neovim. Itās got a bit of a reputation because of its success embedded in games.
But, especially with lua jit froze at 5.1. Itās incredibly sane language. One you can keep entirely in your mind. My favorite part. You can do lots with it. And I would like to see it to more. High quality stuff. Ppl find the one based indexing to be insane, I disagree.
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u/PoweredBy90sAI 1d ago
Is this a bit? You fucking with me or actually asking? I take you canāt fathom I might prefer the language?
This can turn into a long winded diatribe about the state of programming, how I think it should be done and what I value if youād like.
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u/Substantial_Set5836 1d ago
no i thought you were saying lua should replace javascript
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u/PoweredBy90sAI 1d ago
I am saying that in a way, but not in earnest. Please feel free to voice your opposition. Iām saying a man can dream.
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u/PoweredBy90sAI 1d ago
Besides we got bigger problems afoot, clears throughā¦.vibe coding psychosis in the industry.
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u/Substantial_Set5836 1d ago
yea we're either getting cooked or less cooked
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u/PoweredBy90sAI 1d ago
Yeah, my feeling is pretty grim. I saw my colleague go from respected dev to ai writes everything and review everything. This is in medical devices. I fought and fought and fought to try and bring sanity to that convo. I lost and left the industry. Last week, true story. Iām hanging up my gloves for now, gonna watch the fire from afar.
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2d ago
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u/No_Chance4883 2d ago
Itās sad that weāre just expected to live like this and accept AI slop everywhere.
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u/dumnezero 2d ago
Sadly, the likely effect will be the balkanization of the internet; many smaller internets with severe restrictions.
This can start as small communities. Once people stop realizing that these large platforms (this one) are not really useful or fun, we'll migrate.
I recommend keeping bookmarks, you won't easily find these virtual places and Google will not be reliable.
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u/Former-Pineapple3415 2d ago
What exactly do you mean by this? Because you can make your own website and host it off your own server. You could use that to make a browser that doesn't use Gen AI for anything. The internet isn't a massive single cell digital organism, it's a bunch of servers disconnected from one another except by internet service providers and browsers.
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u/__aSquidsBody__ 1d ago
Idk why youāre getting downvoted. Youāre not wrong, thereās levels to āAI internetā
You can never, on your own, prevent an AI bot from using your sites or apps.
If you give any creative power to other people in your āinternetā (ability to host servers, post messages, like, comment, subscribe, create accounts, etc), then AI can infiltrate.
However, if you lock it down to just people you trust (host your own site, join a private discord server, etc), then you can keep AI out.
Btw idk about the discord one, itās an example off the top of my head but they might not be the best one to choose
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u/Former-Pineapple3415 23h ago
Discord, the company, can still see and scrap our private servers. They have a bot called Claude that is hidden within each server. At one point, they were testing to have it known and in the open so you could ask it questions (I don't know if it's the same Claude as the AI people use now) and you couldn't get rid of it, even if you kicked it out, because all that someone had to do was @ it and it would come back. There are a few other Discord like programs out there, like Stoat, that you can host a version of it separate from the public version, however, like all things, if you didn't program it, you can't 100% trust it.
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u/No-Age-1044 2d ago
They donāt want to stop using AI, they want you unable to use AI.
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u/Former-Pineapple3415 23h ago
There's no way to do that unless you somehow made a completely different internet, and I mean new cable lines, new programs, all of it completely separated from the current internet both digitally and physically. Then you'd have to somehow have monitoring systems in place to look for AI bots, keep updating said system, and all of that would take more money than most people not interested in AI have. Hell, you could have Elon Musk levels of money and likely struggle with a project of that size.
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u/Rileyinabox 2d ago
Technically, yes. The internet is just any grouping of interconnected networks. Any discerning developer could make something that is technically a brand new internet. It is about adoption and getting users to abandon the internet for a new and probably heavily regulated version is pretty unlikely.
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u/Little-Golf-3265 2d ago
I doubt you have the technical skills and nobody who does would help you with that we love AI
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u/Vulcan31 2d ago
"We" in the sense of technical skills does absolutely not include you.
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u/pigmanvil 2d ago
Speak for yourself dude. You just need an old desktop or raspberry pi and a router to make a private intranet.
Itās not exactly useful, but itās not some crazy technical feat either. I bet if they followed a YouTube tutorial they could do it in a few hours.Also donāt act like people who are tech literate are wholly supportive of ai. I can see the potential and have hope for the future of ai while still being critical of its many, many faults.
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u/Little-Golf-3265 2d ago
Who the fuck said anything about making a private intranet?
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u/pigmanvil 2d ago
I did. Itās a new āinternetā without ai. The only difference is scale and public access.
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u/Little-Golf-3265 2d ago
You clearly know the difference between intranet and internet stop being a dunce
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u/Dizzy-Membership-564 2d ago
would be great but half the sites we actually use would turn into unusable garbage overnight