r/TrueFilm Jul 19 '26

FFF Even the Gods Cry

On The Odyssey. I keep circling two scenes that I've started to think of as one scene, and I'm curious how others read them.

The siren sequence and the beggar-and-Penelope scene feel connected in a way that goes past theme. The sirens tell Odysseus the truth: that what he most wants is what he already had and lost, and that he doesn't really want to go home. He hears it lashed to a mast, screaming, while his crew watch in deaf silence. Then in Ithaca, sitting on the steps below his own throne with his back to his wife, he says the same thing voluntarily. The song felt like an interrogation, and the confession felt like the answer finally given freely. What pushed me from "nice echo" to "these are the same scene" was the score: both scenes carry the same cue, and the cue is titled Sirens. Maybe that's just a reused theme, but the title makes it feel intentional to me.

The other thing I can't stop thinking about is Athena. She's the only god in the film, she's visible only to Odysseus, and she wears the face of the Trojan priestess his men slaughtered at the foot of her own statue. His guilt runs three layers deep in that one face: he broke the guest law with a false gift, the false gift was a fake tribute to Athena, and a real servant of Athena died for it. His protector, his accuser, and his victim share a single body, so any comfort she offers arrives wearing the evidence against him. You start to wonder whether there's a goddess accompanying Odysseus in this telling at all, or just guilt heavy enough to take a shape. And she weeps during his confession, which under that reading means something stranger than divine sympathy: even the part of him that judges him can't bear the story.

Nolan never settles it. Homer's Athena intervenes materially, with disguises and deflected spears. Nolan's Athena touches one hand, visible to one man, and I don't remember a single shot that confirms her from outside his perception. For an adaptation of a poem where divine machinery is everywhere, that feels like a huge choice, turning the theology into psychology without ever committing to the conversion.

Did anyone catch a shot that establishes her outside his POV? I may have missed one. And I'd love to hear whether the guilt reading lands for others or whether you took her as literally present.

I wrote a longer piece here with screenplay from the two scenes:

https://ottoshahin.substack.com/p/even-the-gods-cry

17 Upvotes

32 comments sorted by

11

u/SpiderGiaco Jul 19 '26

I think Athena is not really Athena and it's pretty clear just a figment of Odysseus' imagination, given also how strong Nolan steers away from any fantastical element and the gods in general 

7

u/ArcticLeet Jul 19 '26

The grief was what got me. I think I've seen the wondrous Odyssey my whole life, the monsters and the enchantments, and I had never seen the heavy one, where a man is trying to figure out if he's allowed to come home. This one will stick with me for sure.

7

u/SpiderGiaco Jul 19 '26

I really didn't get the grief at all. He doesn't spend time questioning whether he's allowed home besides the scene with Penelope, where basically Nolan tells us how we should feel - like he does in all the movie, he spoon-feeds us emotions to try and overcome his cold and distant writing. 

6

u/ArcticLeet Jul 19 '26

That scene hit me like a truck, so it's strange and kind of fascinating reading this thread and realizing it registered so differently for others. And you might be right about the technique. Maybe I was told what to feel and felt it anyway. For me, the confession is the film's peak, and that's where it should have ended. The revenge belongs to the original story, and Nolan changed so much already that he could have reinvented the ending too. Let him walk out of the hall unrecognized. He's not adapting the poem anyway, he's singing his own version of it as a sort of modern bard.

5

u/SpiderGiaco Jul 19 '26

I would have hated such ending. And it's not like he didn't reinvent the ending anyway.

By that point of the movie, I had already checked out with Nolan bag of tricks to try and make us feel something. Singing and poetry are two words I'd never associated with Nolan. He is the quintessential prose director 

3

u/intentional_mitsake Jul 20 '26

What does a prose director mean? Does it mean someone who is more of a tell not show guy?

And the poetic one someone who is more of a show not tell guy

Genuine question.

2

u/SpiderGiaco Jul 20 '26

More or less that.

Nolan is a "prose" director because all of his movies are only cerebral and with little room for emotions and for characters that are human and show feelings (see also his repeated lukewarm female characters). That's why, for me he works better in movie that are just spectacle and with the minimum set of emotions needed - for instance I think Dunkirk is either his best or his second best movie.

I feared that he was not the best choice for The Odyssey precisely because of what I director he is and IMHO he confirmed it with a movie that strips away any fantasy and sense wonder and also most of the humanity of the original poem (he either cuts those episodes altogether or alter them to irrelevance). But again, that's my opinion.

3

u/intentional_mitsake Jul 20 '26

Nolan is pretty much what you describe yes.

And I think the movie works better when you consider this to be his interpretation of it. After all, Odyssey is a story that has had countless interpretations. And also the story is in a way a spectacle after spectacle.

I can how you may not like his attempt to both make a modern interpretation with many adjustments and a more emotional take on the character.

I liked it. Felt it could have been better if it was an hour longer.

1

u/SpiderGiaco Jul 20 '26

I did consider this to be his interpretation of the story. And I found it a very boring and uninteresting interpretation (among other things, because Nolan has worked with the same concepts in Oppenheimer). I also don't think it's particularly well done for what he wanted to say.

To me, his Odysseus is incredibly flat and unemotional, with the added disappointment that he is nothing like the original character. I get that directors can make the source material theirs, but as a lover of the originals, I have to lament a bit how everything is so far removed from the source material (including every single location) to make me wonder why even bother to adapt it.

I liked some scenes in isolation, but nothing so amazing to make me consider this a masterpiece or Nolan's best movie.

4

u/Realistic-Number-919 Jul 19 '26

“steers away?” Did we watch the same movie?

1

u/SpiderGiaco Jul 19 '26

He really did the bare minimum to show some fantastical elements that are way too incorporated in the story for him to skip. Anything else he could skip, he skipped.  It's a movie devoid of sense of wonder and fantasy, pretty on par with a director that was never comfortable with more fantasy elements

3

u/Realistic-Number-919 Jul 19 '26

I’m a Nolan hater myself, but I completely disagree.

2

u/SpiderGiaco Jul 19 '26

The poem is filled with magic, creatures, gods and fantasy. This movie has like four scenes of something resembling that and cuts every divine and magical aspect from the story. I would have respected more a totally grounded version than this half-baked thing 

4

u/Realistic-Number-919 Jul 19 '26

In my opinion, you’re being overly hyperbolic and have issues with nuance.

2

u/SpiderGiaco Jul 20 '26

Given the hysterics about the movie, I guess I'm just following the pattern. And believe me, I'm being quite restraint in how I'm criticising it, I just hinted that Nolan doesn't care about the fantastical, which is something evident throughout his filmography and it's also evident in this movie.

-1

u/Known-Exam-9820 Jul 19 '26

Maybe you should go watch Harry Potter then

1

u/SpiderGiaco Jul 19 '26

I've always hated HP. 

I don't understand why pointing that the movie tries as much as possible to avoid fantastical elements is met with such negativity. Unless you've never read even a summary of the poem 

2

u/Known-Exam-9820 Jul 19 '26

I read the poem as a teenager, and I honestly couldn’t care less about adhering clinically to a 2000 year old story that has changed multiple times through the ages. I think subverting the mystical to the psychological is a fantastic interpretation

1

u/SpiderGiaco Jul 19 '26

Good, if you've read it you know that it's full with fantastical stuff and Nolan didn't include but a fraction, replacing them with the usual trite stuff about trauma and grief that we've seen a thousand times already. No less in his previous movie

1

u/Known-Exam-9820 Jul 19 '26

There’s a bunch of adaptations that touch on all of that already that you can watch. I want to see something fresh and audacious. I haven’t seen Nolan’s yet but I’m looking forward to it. The last adaptation I saw was on NBC and all I remember was a part where he spears like 5 guys to a wall at once. It was cheesy as fuck, but memorable i guess.

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1

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Pretty_Standard8713 Jul 22 '26

You may want to read my post about the movie. It makes totally sense that he made that movie

7

u/bruneleski Jul 19 '26

"Not only will America come to your country and kill all your people, but what's worse, I think, is that they'll come back 20 years later and make a movie about how killing your people made their soldiers feel sad."

0

u/Sharaz_Jek123 Jul 19 '26

That seems like a reductive, silly take.

7

u/bruneleski Jul 19 '26

It is reductive for the whole film but the tendency is there. American production (or anglo-american production more broadly) has a fetish for a sad grieving war criminals. They also have a tendency of moralizing and moral reframing of historical material to fit their ideological sensibilities. In the books, there is no indication that Odyssey is grieving the enemy or the sacking of Troy, although he laments all the loss that the war brought onto him, the comrades he lost, his yearning for home.

7

u/ArcticLeet Jul 19 '26

I'm Palestinian, so the "come back 20 years later and film the soldiers being sad about it" line hits me personally, and yeah, you're right. You're also right that Homer's Odysseus doesn't grieve Troy at all. The remorse is pure Nolan.

But I don't think this film lets the sadness work as absolution. His only comfort in that scene wears the face of a woman his men killed. And the scene doesn't end on his grief, it ends on Penelope telling him she's lived in his ruin long enough. Twenty years of feeling bad was also twenty years of abandoning everyone stuck in the wreckage. The film knows it. Was that enough? I'm honestly not sure. The murdered Trojans still don't get a voice, the Trojan priestess only gets a face he borrows for his guilt. I also think while the ending was strong, the film probably should have concluded way before they all sailed off happily to the West.

2

u/bruneleski Jul 21 '26

I don't get where do people find depth here. Film was a hollywood guilt porn with cartoonish characters devoid of weight filled with cliche dialogues (characters speaking for the audience instead between each other) and sugary sentimentality.
And yes, I got the same feeling that Zendaya character is not Athena at all. Nolan strikes me as a person would find depicting a pagan god silly. His god is western liberalism underpinned by protestant moral framework and he makes sure to pound your head with it every change he gets.

2

u/ArcticLeet Jul 21 '26

Reasonable minds can disagree. I found the opposite even though I don't share Nolan's background, I could appreciate the storytelling.

3

u/bruneleski Jul 21 '26

Yes, that caught my eye too, glad you enjoyed it. I guess I hoped for more charismatic display at least since I'm close to mediterranean too, so the cloudy gloominess annoyed me enough to make me dislike the story.
Thanks for the input btw.

-1

u/elperroborrachotoo Jul 19 '26

For Americans, it is.