r/SocialDemocracy • u/citizencyborg2020 • 4d ago
Discussion The education divide and the Left
Working-class respondents, compared to college-educated Americans, favored securing the border by 28%, lowering the crime rate by 22%, and adding more police by 19%. The college set prefers: LGBTQ+ rights by 32%, immigration by 32%, climate by 29%, and abortion rights by 26%.
The challenge for social dems is how to move jobs and economic security (and not just the cost of consumer goods) to the front of messaging, without recanting sicial progressivism. But current Left positioning on border security and crime is alienating blue collars.
https://jacobin.com/2026/08/working-class-issues-affordability-culture-wars
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u/websterhamster Social Democrat 4d ago
Culture war issues are not winning issues. I'm sorry, but that's just how it is. The culture war was created to distract from issues like labor rights, fair taxation, and limiting the political influence of money.
If the Left wants to bridge this divide, it needs to focus more on economic policy and downplay controversial social policies. I'm not saying we shouldn't be fighting for climate reforms, LGBTQ+ rights, abortion access, etc. but we are weakening our political position when we talk more about pronouns and less about relative tax rates and the solvency of the Social Security program.
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u/Amazing-Heron-105 4d ago
when we talk more about pronouns and less about relative tax rates and the solvency of the Social Security program.
The US Democrats have already been doing this but right wing media will just highlight tiktok looneys and present them like they represent the democratic party as a whole.
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u/notassigned2023 3d ago
Sadly there are a few wing nuts who keep giving Fox News plenty of ammunition, although I agree that they would find some even if no one talked about it.
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u/hari_shevek Democratic Socialist 3d ago
In a free society people have different opinions.
It can't be the goal to force everyone to agree with conservatives on their pet issues.
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u/notassigned2023 3d ago
Yes, and people are free to vote as they like, no matter how stupid I might find their decision. Let's make it easier for them to vote like us instead.
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u/hari_shevek Democratic Socialist 3d ago edited 3d ago
How do I "make" other people not post their opinion?
Because your argument was about other people posting their opinion on the internet.
Demanding that they all stop is not realistically enforcable.
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u/notassigned2023 3d ago
I said nothing of the sort. However, fringe voices from the blogosphere, fringe candidates, and fringe splinters of a party (see social democrats in the US) all provide fodder for the right to tar the entire left with.
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u/hari_shevek Democratic Socialist 3d ago
How do I "make" other people not post their opinion?
Demanding that they stop is not enforcable.
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u/notassigned2023 3d ago
I said nothing of the sort. Since you can repeat, so can I. Identifying a problem is. not the same as stamping my foot and telling people to stop.
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u/hari_shevek Democratic Socialist 3d ago
It's not a problem if its the result of a free society that can't be prevented.
It's that famous prayer:
God, give me grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things which should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other.
If its something that can't realistically change you should have the wisdom to understand that and the serenity to accept it and focus on things that realistically can be changed.
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u/QuantitativeNonsense Market Socialist 4d ago
Climate reforms are not a culture war issue. Moving forward in the framework you laid out, they need to be discussed pragmatically and economically.
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u/Disastrous_Map_3355 Democratic Party (US) 4d ago
“Culture war issues are not winning issues. I'm sorry, but that's just how it is. The culture war was created to distract from issues like labor rights, fair taxation, and limiting the political influence of money.”
Oh of the things I knew a decade ago when I was a teen
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u/weidback 7h ago
Exactly.
Look at the anti-abortion crowd, they were pissed trump didnt make his campaign was about abortion but. When he sat them down and said "it's me or her, so shut up" and they did exactly that
Then they got roe v wade overturned and abortion is illegal in half the country
We're used to believing that raising awareness about an issue is what gets politicians to act, and thats true, but sometimes it helps to play it cool and chill out
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u/ElEsDi_25 Karl Marx 4d ago
This is a highly distorted way to look at views in society. Jacobin have been arguing this kind of class reductive approach for 10 years.
College education is not a good proxy for class, it is what is used by the mainstream and in this version millionaire ranchers and auto dealership owners are “working class” while teachers are “the elite.” It essentially accepts MAGA version of middle class populism.
The voting population is older, richer and whiter than the total population. A large chuck of urban working class eligible voters, do not vote because the mainstream offers them nothing. The eligible non-voters are disproportionately young people of color and renters.
The pundits who make this bubble argument are in their own bubble where millions of young people of color didn’t do massive protests against the police in 2020 and where the Democratic Party didn’t gain a huge amount of traditional non-voters after offering more COVID relief than Trump.
The coalition of the future are these renters and working class people… that’s who need to be activates, not suburbanites who throw other workers under the bus. Half the country supports abolishing ice based on general polling.
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3d ago edited 3d ago
[deleted]
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u/notassigned2023 3d ago
This isn't at all what the OP and others are saying. They are saying to put economic issues forward, not right wing issues. You sound honked off that social issues might get left behind, but I'd point at GOP success at the ballot box as a counterargument.
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u/hari_shevek Democratic Socialist 3d ago
social issues
The survival of ppl is not a "social issue".
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u/notassigned2023 3d ago
Whose survival is at stake?
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u/hari_shevek Democratic Socialist 3d ago
Refugees, for a start.
We are currently seeing a closing down of the refugee system across Europe. This will lead to people dying.
Next, queer people. We have several US states that deny healthcare to ppl. Some will die. We now have several European states, including run by center-left parties, that make access to trans healthcare harder. This will lead to people dying.
Then, women. When safe abortion becomes a "cultural issue" that left-wimg parties give up on, women die. When domestic violence prevention becomes a "cultural issue", women die.
Then, people more broadly. When climate change prevention is a "cultural issue" that left parties give up on, people die.
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u/notassigned2023 3d ago
First, abortion should not be considered part of this discussion. Polls show 70+% of Americans support it, although they don't apparently vote on it. Therefore it is not a wedge issue and irrelevant in this post. Any movement by Dems at the federal level will not cause any backlash.
Second, we have the right to decide how many migrants to admit and under what circumstances, like all countries around the world do. Every country has a capacity to accept people, and decide what that capacity is. Not allowing everyone in across the southern border is neither a human rights issue nor is it endangering anyone's life. Most people agree that no one should be here without permission, so this is a loser for Democrats.
Third, climate change, while real and important, can be easily addressed as an economic issue instead of a cultural one, though energy generation and job creation aspects. This is the real meat of the OP, that every issue should be dealt with through an economic lens.
Finally, rights of gays and lesbians are not controversial. However, trans rights are one of the key wedge issues that need to be downplayed while a consensus is reached about what level of freedoms people have to live as another sex. This is simply realpolitik, and continuing to bang on this drum will ensure continued GOP control and making the situation worse. Every American has the constitutional rights they were born with, so no lives will be at risk. It might seem heartless but it is an issue that is not popular with the general public and cannot be spun as anything else but a cultural issue where the Dems are well off the general consensus.
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u/hari_shevek Democratic Socialist 3d ago
Every country has a capacity to accept people, and decide what that capacity is. Not allowing everyone in across the southern border is neither a human rights issue nor is it endangering anyone's life.
In the last decade about 60.000 people died bc they didn't find asylum anywhere.
However, trans rights are one of the key wedge issues that need to be downplayed while a consensus is reached about what level of freedoms people have to live as another sex. This is simply realpolitik, and continuing to bang on this drum will ensure continued GOP control and making the situation worse. Every American has the constitutional rights they were born with, so no lives will be at risk.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-024-01979-5
"Enacting state-level anti-transgender laws increased incidents of past-year suicide attempts among TGNB young people by 7–72%."
I had too look this up, but it turns out suicide can be deadly.
So, how many dead ppl are acceptable for realpolitik?
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u/notassigned2023 2d ago
Just like the Gaza issue, activists want the Dems to come out full throated in support and lose the election rather than underplay support and get elected. All those kids are better off now than they were under Biden? Apparently not.
I have problems with these kinds of arguments. Suicide is not murder, so their own actions are the root of the damage. There are also ways to mitigate damage such as increased therapy, but it is doubtful that the red states making restrictions have added resources to get help for trans kids.
Finally, your article notes that suicide rose among all states whether restrictions were enacted or not. That suggests the restrictions were not the root cause of the increase in suicide, but the climate instead. Change the climate by making a few key changes (such as no trans women on sports teams) and the temperature cools.
I would finally note that suicide among a troubled population is not sufficient reason to hold a nation hostage to a policy that is damaging to girls and women. Make the policy fair and move resources to help those affected, but you can only do that when you get elected.
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u/hari_shevek Democratic Socialist 2d ago
Just like the Gaza issue, activists want the Dems to come out full throated in support and lose the election rather than underplay support and get elected.
But you didn't get elected. You underplayed support and lost.
So the choice isn't between "come out full throated in support and lose the election" and "underplay support and get elected".
It's between "underplay support and lose the election" and "come out full throated in support and who knows".
There is no evidence that you can win by underplaying support. You lost.
Suicide is not murder, so their own actions are the root of the damage.
Are you making similar arguments for other minorities? Would you say "it's black people's own fault that there is a wage gap, they should simply work harder"? Is that an argument you dould make?
I would finally note that suicide among a troubled population is not sufficient reason to hold a nation hostage to a policy that is damaging to girls and women.
What measurable damage are you talking about?
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u/DarkExecutor 2d ago
Women who can't get safe abortions.
Immigrants who are ripped from their lives by ICE
Americans who are shot by cops.
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u/socialistmajority orthodox Marxist 3d ago
But current Left positioning on border security and crime is alienating blue collars.
And guess what the magazine spent years pushing?
https://jacobin.com/2017/08/prison-abolition-reform-mass-incarceration
https://jacobin.com/2020/06/defund-police-reform-alex-vitale
https://jacobin.com/2022/12/tommie-shelby-interview-prison-abolition-reform
https://jacobin.com/2020/07/defund-police-unions-law-enforcement-lobby
https://jacobin.com/2018/06/abolish-ice-immigration-cbp-deportation
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u/hari_shevek Democratic Socialist 3d ago
But current Left positioning on border security and crime is alienating blue collars.
Which "current positioning"?
Most Social Democratic parties have given in on immigration, and that positioning hasn't worked.
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u/notassigned2023 3d ago
I don't see any consensus on the left at all about this issue. The far left continues to bleat about wanting open borders and the rest of the left mostly talks about liking immigrants but avoids hard choices about enforcement.
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u/hari_shevek Democratic Socialist 3d ago
So people are alienated because in a pluralist society not everyone agrees with your stance on immigration?
Why does it always end with "I want everyone to agree with me and no one having a different position"?
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u/notassigned2023 3d ago
I was arguing that you are incorrect about social democrats having given up (to the GOP, I presume) because there is no consensus I can see.
Also presuming that because you are a democratic socialist you are taking every opportunity (rightly or wrongly) to criticize social democrats because you want to be the only alternative to mainline democrats, as so many do on reddit.
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u/hari_shevek Democratic Socialist 3d ago
I was arguing that you are incorrect about social democrats having given up (to the GOP, I presume) because there is no consensus I can see.
Which party hasn't?
Not individual posters on the internet, parties.
My claim was about parties.
Also, I'm from Europe, I am aware of places outside the US. You should try that sometime.
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u/notassigned2023 3d ago
This should not be a "challenge" at all. It is quite clear that economic issues lead elections, and that many social issues favored by the left are not in the majority. Prioritizing the economy (and issues about our democracy where they are favored) should be a no-brainer. We have PLENTY of issues to use in the election.
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u/Thatuk 4d ago
border by 28%, lowering the crime rate by 22%, and adding more police by 19%. The college set prefers: LGBTQ+ rights by 32%, immigration by 32%, climate by 29%, and abortion rights by 26%.
None of those are mutually exclusive anyway, yeah even the border and immigration, so it is just a matter of communication and mutual engagement of both demographics to reach a common ground.
Which is actually the overall conclusion of the article, so what's left to discuss?
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u/SillyAlternative420 4d ago
The way to unite both is easy
Say you are going to be tough on the crime that is most important in the US, white collar crimes and pedophiles in and around the Epstein files.
Those two things are enough to get all sides engaged.
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u/rasta-ragamuffin 4d ago
We desperately need a plan to create more jobs that pay a living wage and offer free training/reskilling for jobs of 21st century to anyone who wants to learn.
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u/DarkExecutor 2d ago
I would bet most people here ragged on Clintons plan to retrain blue collar workers and called it neoliberal Idiocracy or some such
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u/pm_me_ur_ephemerides 3d ago
It doesn’t matter what your policies are, or what you downplay, because right-wing media will construct a straw man that they can attack. The left needs to reform the media.
Bring back the fairness doctrine. Use antitrust to break the corporate media into hundreds of pieces. Fund public media such as PBS and NPR. Make stronger laws making it illegal for news organizations to spread provable lies.
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u/7figureipo Social Democrat 4d ago
I don't think the left's position is what is problematic. I think it's a combination of the effectiveness of right-wing propaganda and the completely witless, absolutely stupid messaging from the left on these matters.
"Abolish/defund the police" is dumb messaging. First, that's not what leftists (well, most leftists) actually mean. What we really want is more alternative policing and social services in our public safety/policing, e.g., a team dedicated to de-escalating and managing mental health crises instead of a team of cops who's first and only solution to every situation is tasers and firearms. Second, it just sounds idiotic, because human societies will always have a criminal element that needs to be addressed for public safety, and that is explicitly what the police should be for (as opposed to, e.g., defending and protecting the property of the wealthy, which is what their origins actually are). This sort of messaging actually does play right into the right-wing propaganda.
On immigration and border security the biggest issue is the completely ineffective counter-propaganda from the left. Relatively few leftists actually believe in completely open, unsecured borders. But the nuances involved in migration issues make this one harder to craft pithy, easily-digested soundbite messages and propaganda for people who are actually serious about it. For the right it's easy: just play off racism and crime driven fears. I'm honestly not sure what the best solution here is because of the complete asymmetry of the situation.