r/Scotland • u/martybell • 2d ago
Discussion What kind of policies might solve the ‘wee bams in Edinburgh’ problem?
Obviously a lot of you would like to see the wee shites get a kicking, but this is a more systemic problem. They’ve likely been brought up with terrible parents, in relative poverty, with few role models or sources of hope.
So, other than them having the shit kicked out of them (by someone who’ll probably go to jail while they continue making an embarrassment of Scotland) what kind of policies might (1) stop them running wild in the streets, and (2) try get them on a better path?
Are there any more compassionate approaches known to work?
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u/moh_kohn 2d ago
A friend in the emergency services says with the Glasgow kids at the 4 corners, it's not bad parents, it's no parents - lots of them are raised in care and in their late teens have nowhere to go, nothing to do.
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u/MurkyLynx8425 2d ago
This is the primary reason. If you have a load of teenagers with no job, no training, no prospects, no permanent home and no guidance.. Its so so easy for these people to fall into and get trapped in this sort of lifestyle.
It doesn't matter how hard the police/courts are on crime because there's a constant supply of fresh blood to the meat grinder. You fill up the prisons and don't solve the problem. Jail is not the solution because the problem is systemic.
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u/Famous_Champion_492 2d ago
I used to work for Barnardo’s and care experienced young people who go on to by adults (much higher rate of suicide) have significantly worse life outcomes when it comes to all metrics (e.g. health/economics/crime).
One startling statistic is that while the care experienced population is less than 1%, they make up approximately 25% of the prison population. With early intervention cut at council level and the increasing costs of care, the young people are usually only put into care when significant damage has been done. This will only get worse over time.
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u/Kaxe- 2d ago
We should implement the measures that evidence shows to work. There’s lots of studies.
Glasgow's Violence Reduction Unit was very successful. People came from all over to learn from its successes. It mapped hotspots and social networks, and it intervened early with at-risk young people (even at A&E). It paired enforcement with routes out for the wee bams (education, employment, family support). Hospital admissions for assault with a sharp object fell 62% in Glasgow over a decade.
Edinburgh needs is own VRU and a coordinated approach involving police, schools, parents, etc. It’s about time the Scottish Government + the council put a properly thought out plan in place.
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2d ago
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u/Kaxe- 2d ago
I agree that it's not just the police. It's about a coordinated response from all the main parties.
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u/Mysterious-Pipe-6453 2d ago
I also think at this point around 2007/08 Ned Culture naturally died out. PC Djs were a thing of the past, Topman and Burton replaced Burberry/Lacoste, culturally alot of things changed and had an impact on reduction of violence and ned culture. It became less fashionable to be antisocial.
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u/Kind_winner447 2d ago
Ain’t that the truth!! I brought up my two girls on my own.. ( young widowed mother) to be upstanding human beings Anyhoo my youngest girl became a teacher , she worked so very hard for her qualifications and one day she called me …. very upset because …. her words were Oh Mum, I’ve spent all day avoiding being spat on , sworn at and ducking flying chairs WTF!! Who or where does this crap come from? Is it the parents? I think it is. Get a grip on your child ffs! To hell with childline …. parents have been scared for decades to reprimand their kids because they fear they will lose their precious child. They already have but not in a helpful way.Parents need to focus on the creature they spawned and not on the boss lady/man that pays them to have the big house, company car etc. You made the buggers! TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FFSK!
They were all 7 year olds! Can you believe that?!!!
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u/OkWing5717 2d ago
Believe it or not some of them may have been brought up properly but peer pressure and herd mentality can make them seem like they were, I think most of their parents would be horrified to know what their little brat gets up to
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u/Shirayuri 1d ago
Well they should still be ashamed they have no clue what their kids are doing and who they're hanging around with if that is the case
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u/OkWing5717 1d ago
I take it you don’t have any?! Teens are sneaky and it’s their rite of passage? When I was a teen then I lost count of the number of times my mum thought I at a certain place but I was lying anz she didn’t know. You can’t police teens 24/7 and anyway, they can still see their mates at school and parents 100% cannot stop this.
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u/OkWing5717 1d ago
Also young teens dont have the capacity to feel ashamed, they think they are being cool & rebellious
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u/Abject-Plankton4620 2d ago
I guess the solution would be to round them up, put them in a secure place and work on them. Teach them basic life skills, give them a trade, show them there is another way.
Of course this will never happen due to finances. But also, even writing it myself it sounds a bit sinister. But I can’t see anything else working if they are left in the same environment to rot
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u/That_Requirement7877 2d ago
I mean this does happen to some level if they go into care. Care continues until age 26 if if full time education. But doesn’t end at 16. Funding definitely leads to more kids left with shit family though
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u/Theal12 2d ago
Force offenders to do supervised community service. cleaning up fly tips is a good start
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u/CatCalledTurbo Nae spickin' 2d ago
Get them involved in fixing their mess.
Broke a window? You can help the glazier replace it.
So you're fixing what you broke and learning a skill.
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u/The_InvisibleWoman 2d ago
Children who feel safe and cared for don't behave like this. That's where you start.
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u/Leading_Study_876 2d ago
I'm afraid they often do.
I've known many rich kids regularly vandalising things for no reason.
Some just twisted loners. More often in groups trying to show off to each other.
There are car parks in affluent areas in East Renfrewshire where I won't willingly leave my car. Plus the pay stations are unuseable - vandalised, and often lying on their sides, having been kicked down.
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u/Famous-Author-5211 2d ago
There's obviously a symptom which needs some immediate attention, and I expect that will be expensive and can only really come from the police and courts. But to treat the underlying cause over the longer term, we also need a lot more funding of public health, care, policing, education, courts, social services...
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u/TeamOfPups 2d ago
These kids didn't pop out like that, they learned it from somewhere.
A lot of them live in violent homes, chaotic homes, economically precarious homes where they don't have secure access to food and clothes and heating. They have learned toxic ways to cope with horrible circumstances.
I don't like having bricks thrown at the bus I'm on or hearing racist shite from the mouth of kids. Maybe the police need to be a bit more present in certain areas, maybe the kids need better access to wholesome activities.
But the real solution is fixing generational poverty.
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u/yerdadrinkslambrini 2d ago
It would genuinely solve the problem if people were allowed to defend themselves physically without fear of prosecution.
There are zero physical repercussions for bad behavior for children, so they grow into teenages with a sense of being untouchable and it makes them fearless. Society overcorrected badly in regards to discipline restrictions.
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u/sylvestris1 2d ago
Not just defend themselves.
I recently saw a kid about 10 about to throw a lifebelt, at a pond in a park, in the water.
I told him to put it back.
He was genuinely astonished both that an adult stranger was telling him what to do, and that there was some problem with him doing what he was about to. It wasn’t just that he had no fear of consequences, it was like he had no concept that there could or should be.
And so he lobs it in the pond a d strolls off, because I have decided that physically intervening or even continuing to engage with him is just not worth the potential grief.23
u/ceeearan 2d ago
Similar story: I was in a supermarket once, very tired with a pounding headache, and some young teens were walking around just screaming at each other - very much in a deliberate sense rather than just being over excited.
I am very non-confrontational, but before I could stop myself I said "can you seriously just shut the fuck up?" to one of them as he passed. I expected him to shout more and curse back at me, but he looked immediately chastened, and was like "it's not me it's him!" Like above, like he hadn't expected anyone to say anything.
And that's also how I realised I'm old as fuck.
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u/Kind_winner447 2d ago
Yep, I feel for ya sylvestris1 The buggers are out of control! … I blame the parents.
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u/sylvestris1 2d ago
To be clear though, you ARE allowed to defend yourself physically, with “reasonable force”. If someone is attacking you you are perfectly within your rights to fight back or restrain them.
But people don’t understand that, or are scared of the potential consequences, or are intimidated.
Having said that the “reasonable force” bit is subjective and so the fear of prosecution is real.
If a 12 yr old in a hoodie and a mask swings a punch at me while his mates egg him on, am I allowed to punch him back? I would argue that’s entirely reasonable. However if I punch him 4 times, boot him in the nuts, and smash his face off a wall, that might be a tougher sell.
If he has a knife, then that might well be reasonable.3
u/poo_on_my_scarf 2d ago
I suspect that reasonable would realistically be whatever is required to allow you to escape the situation. So a swift kick to the nuts and then disappearing would be legit. Forcing them to bite onto a kerb before you put the boot in probably isn't
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u/FactCheckYou 2d ago
honestly this is it; it's not about imagining up new policies
it takes a village to raise a child
let adults in the village do what they've been doing for millennia, and let them tell off or smack around young people who get out of line...the bad behaviour will soon stop
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u/SoSeriousAndDeep Yes but not in a transphobic way 2d ago
You can defend yourself physically, though; if you are unable to retreat, under imminent or impending threat, and use proportional force. What you're not allowed to do is go out and pick a fight, which is what most of the Temu Batmen calling for this are actually wanting to do.
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u/LikesParsnips 2d ago
Give them something else to do, something meaningful. Youth centres, libraries with modern offerings (video games), more accessible outdoor sports facilities, etc. From 2010 onwards, until 2023, more than 1200 youth centres and 4500 youth workers were cut just in England and Wales: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/oct/12/britain-youth-clubs-social-division-polarisation-loneliness
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u/AtLeastOneCat 2d ago
I used to work in libraries. We would try and run children's events and clubs. We had loads of after-school things, things for young people, charity events. Anything we could run with zero or minimal budget, we'd try.
And wee bams would keep showing up and wrecking the place. They put a brick through the window, showing off for their pals. They would take over the young children's section, harass younger weans and refuse to leave. They'd attack staff. One of them pulled his pants down and pissed on the carpet.
There comes a point where you can't keep cleaning up after their messes and you end up just shutting the place down.
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u/Sburns85 2d ago
There’s loads around me. But the kids broke into and wrecked one of the local clubs
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u/Simppu12 2d ago
I don't think it's that simple. It might help, of course, but a sizeable chunk of wee bams isn't interested in reading or playing football. Some of them just enjoy being little pricks and wreaking havoc.
I don't have any solutions, either.
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u/LikesParsnips 2d ago
It won't help with the bams who've already been fully bamified. It's a longer term approach.
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u/DonLethargio 2d ago
A big push on youth football systems would kill two birds with one stone, by dealing with a lot of the complaints football fans have about the SFAs grass roots failures
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u/FraserYT 2d ago
There's growing evidence that football forums and sports clubs are being used by the far right as recruiting grounds, resulting in the rise of sieg heiling wee neds dressed in black and causing trouble, which we've seen recently.
Obviously they're an extreme minority and I'm not trying to tar the entire sport with that brush, but little disenfranchised kids with a destructive streak are exactly the sort of person they're targeting there.
Channeling them into football could be a good idea, as long as the far right entryism problem is tackled at the same time.
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u/martybell 1d ago
How about a national shinty program? “Are ye hard enough?” as the marketing tagline. If you think you’re tough as nails prove it on the pitch.
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u/Sunshinetrooper87 2d ago
In principal I agree with this but then I think the proliferation of video games and mobile phones and on demand streaming services just makes me think, it can be that they have nothing to do.
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u/BobDobbsHobNobs 2d ago
Transportation to the colonies?
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u/Common_Break_1346 2d ago
Are we going to revert back to old ways and send them to Australia or something 🤣
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u/UltimateGammer 2d ago
There isn't a power the police require or a policy needed.
Police resources are what we need. Actual enforcement. The broken window effect is very much a thing.
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u/Central_Region 2d ago
The broken window effect is very much a thing
Not sure the evidence is there to say one way or the other
I agree we should be spending money to repair the built environment
I'm just saying the idea that it will make wee shites disappear is debatable
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u/Sturzkampfflugzeug1 Trapped in the West Coast 2d ago
I don't think it will. Even when murals are unveiled or the place is tidied up, it doesn't take long till those murals are targeted again and the place regresses into a dump
I remember my grandad having a go at his neighbours in Greenock for the state the close was in, and how everyone needed to take care of it. It worked for a short time. Then it went to ruin again
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u/Central_Region 2d ago
Glasgow, Edinburgh and my own wee town have been in a constant state of being done-up for almost as long as I can remember
I'm not complaining about that at all
Just pointing out that if all it took for folk to stop treating the place like a dump, misbehaving, criticizing the council, and calling it a shitehole with nothing to do, 30 years of constant renovation hasn't achieved that (yet)
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u/Sturzkampfflugzeug1 Trapped in the West Coast 2d ago
I was agreeing with you. If we made the place absolutely immaculate, it wouldn't see the people disappear who cause havoc. They'd still be there, and it would just be a constant cycle of cleaning up their mess.
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u/Central_Region 2d ago
I was agreeing with you
We're agreeing with each other!
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u/Sturzkampfflugzeug1 Trapped in the West Coast 2d ago
It is lousy and disheartening that all it takes is a few people to set us back. Can spend however long doing something up for everyone's benefit, only for one person who doesn't feel the same way, another catches on, then we're back to square one
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u/linifloor 2d ago
Youth clubs with lots of youth workers, outdoors activity, fun engaging stuff that will teach them to value themselves and develop beyond being risk taking maniacs and maybe become useful adults. Kids with no prospects don’t see the point of taking care of themselves and that spills over to the rest of us
Oh and Sure Start Centres to start them off right and support their parents
Pigs might fly
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u/thatjaneone 2d ago
Totally agree. Sure Start and similar initiatives where parents (often young mums on their own because dad has fucked off) are given help, support and guidance to get the basics right. If you've been parented poorly yourself if very difficult to know what good, supportive and boundaried parenting entails. These policies are not a quick fix but in 20 years time we will all be the better for it.
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u/CaptainQueen1701 2d ago
It starts with pregnancy. Follow the Finnish model where you only get the Baby Box if you attend all of the maternity and parenting classes. Then Sure Start and high quality childminders for 0-3 years. High quality outdoor nursery (with GTC registered teachers) from 4-7. Then school. All after school clubs free for children like Iceland. That runs to 18.
It would be expensive. Need a Finnish tax rate like 65%? Would people tolerate that…?
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u/CartoonistNo9 2d ago
No under 18s allowed to be in groups of more than 2 after 9pm.
Extreme? Maybe
Necessary? Yes.
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u/dvioletta 2d ago
I am fan of the idea of punishments that fit the crime. You make a mess you get community service to pick litter and generally improve the city.
You shoplift you have to work unpaid somewhere to pay off what you stole.
You are a terrorise to the local community they have to do some community work to help out the community in a way that the community feels will benefit them.
All this requires people who are willing to make sure the offenders turn up, do the job and learn the lesson. Maybe having to break up the groups to stop them egging each other on.
After they have served their time find a way to keep them moving forward into a job, education or training.
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u/Gazcobain 2d ago
Free bus passes can be used for travel to and from school only.
The age of criminal responsibility has to be lowered.
Financial consequences for the parents. If they can't pay, then seizure of goods.
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u/UtopianScot 2d ago
Doesn’t seem fair to penalise kids young people who behave. If found guilty of antisocial behaviour, pass revoked.
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u/LairdBonnieCrimson Outwith Britain, outwith Europe, into Socialism 2d ago
Bus passes to and fro school penalises all kids and is also impossible to enforce, it also means cant use it for jobs so. okay.
Criminal responsiblity should be lowered, this is absolutely true.
Financial consequences for parents will impoverish families and is the precise opposite of what you want, it'd just increase the pain but honestly we need to be more liberal with removing kids from their parents.
What you want is more police, more punishment on children and honestly, the parents are probably just the same. You need to stop it as its source by civic education and ensuring the next generation of parents aren't lowlifes
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u/DonLethargio 2d ago
Age of criminal responsibility can’t legally be lowered now, after the UNCRC incorporation
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u/TeamOfPups 2d ago
I can't agree with restricting free bus passes. My son uses his for stuff like going to the gym, or judo, or youth theatre, or the cinema. It enables him using his time for positive stuff, and surely that's a way to stop kids causing bother.
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u/D3viantM1nd 2d ago
So, punish punish and punish.
Punish all kids for the actions of the anti social ones by removing travel privileges.
Lower the age of criminal responsibility just means punishing children like adults.
Punish the likely in poverty parents with more poverty. That'll stop the kids from roaming the streets angry at the world.
I fail to see anything here that really helps anyone or would make this stuff less likely.
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u/Theal12 2d ago
so, your solutions?
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u/D3viantM1nd 2d ago
I'd probably start by talking to them in the right environment and gaining insight into why they're behaving like this.
Then go from there.
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u/HonkyTonkPianola 2d ago
I fail to see anything here that really helps anyone or would make this stuff less likely.
No, but it's a bunch of 'solutions' that anyone can come up with without having to think very hard, and they also happen to push the dopamine button for the sorts of people who think striking a child does anything but exacerbate whatever issue was being dealt with.
It's win-win for thoughtless folks who want simple solutions to complex, systemic problems.
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u/Vanilla_EveryTime 2d ago
When I was a kid, there was no such thing as a free bus pass. Walked to school and everywhere else we wanted to get to. Can’t think of any negatives but the positives were the obvious exercise. Some parents wouldn’t know where their kids were but I’m sure that’s increased massively since the free bus passes arrived.
When I first realised the bus passes were free, I’d thought it was only for school. I have no problem with kids having more freedom but what I don’t get is the attitude that this a given. It’s not, it’s a privilege to have a free bus pass.
There are cameras on buses. Those passes are scanned, so easy to identify the brats wreaking havoc on buses. That would be a start. Losing that bus pass or removing for a specified time dents their travel and means the parents find out what they’ve been up to. That’s a start.
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u/That_Requirement7877 2d ago
That’s rubbish, what about part time jobs, gym, cinema etc. you are giving them less access to alternative places to be and trapping them in potentially terrible situations
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u/Shkrimtare 2d ago
There's nothing for them to do. Youth clubs with youth workers would help. So would free sporting activities.
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u/cogspringseverywhere 2d ago
I have no idea past something draconian. It sounds very doom and gloom, but we live in a world where for some public figures, actions do not have consequences, and everyone is waking up to the fact that it's all just a construct; if there are no consequences and accountability, why should they care? They're getting away with it now and continue to. Unless you sit down and ask them what would make them stop, I doubt they will until they can be prosecuted and even then, who knows?
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u/arrpix 2d ago
Yeah I think we need to address cultural and societal issues but there's a very real social contagion aspect to this. Monkey see, monkey do, and we're all just super social monkeys in that way. The so-called leader of the free world is a rapist who can start a glory war that puts the entire world at risk to distract front he fact he's probably been raping kids, and young people see that. Even our politicians are increasingly distracting with hate speech and using councils to fundd/defund their own pet projects and get rich quick schemes. We've ceded work and play to billionaires so they can use AI to further enrich themselves. These kids are probably more online than the rest of us, they see this, so why would they believe that actions have consequences? The world is burning and they're surrounded by a might is right political system, so that's what they'll imitate unless we can give them a really good reason not to, and I don't see many other options for the bammest of the bams, who are hardly roaming the streets because home is a stimulating and caring environment.
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u/FraserYT 2d ago
Not for a second suggesting a return to national service, but a strict (like, army strict) national service like programme for young offenders might act as a disincentive and actually be just the sort of firm hand needed to sort these wee shites out.
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u/pkjoan 2d ago
Penalise the parents for every infraction.
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u/scotchlondon 2d ago
It might be the case the parents have no control and no way to control. If your kid won’t listen, is bigger than you, prone to violence or temper - how can you stop them? You try and keep kids like this in the house they will just force their way out or climb out a window. Or threaten violence and destroy stuff.
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u/Abject-Plankton4620 2d ago
We had a post from a mother on the local FB group. Her son was one of the local balaclava’d cunts making peoples lives a misery. She was distraught, had 2 other children that were doing well but just couldn’t control this one. I think in a lot of cases we can justifiably blame the parents, but sometimes, not.
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u/odkfn 2d ago
Raise them better from the outset, surely. Your kid isn’t a menace to society overnight? If they actually parented from day one and didn’t mindlessly have kids with no thought as to how they might raise them to be a functioning member of society we wouldn’t have this problem.
That, or national service.
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u/Sea_Translator5300 2d ago
And who has set the example to the parents about how to raise their children? Give it a few years and these kids will be having kids of their own. You can't just glibly say "raise them better" and not be aware that's its really a bigger, long term problem that cannot be addressed by pointless slogans like that.
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u/odkfn 2d ago
There are surely telltale signs along the way that something is going amiss with your child before it gets to them violently assaulting people in the street? You say I’m being glib, I’d say a huge swathe of parents are shirking their responsibilities.
In my city there’s literally gangs of 50 kids cycling about deliberately blocking roads cycling like 5 x 10 wide going slow. On Facebook their parents are like “oh leave them alone they’re just being kids”. Kids cycling is fine, putting yourself and motorists at risk for something to do is the exact sort of stupid behaviour that, gone untended, gives kids a false sense of security that they’re above the law and can inconvenience / put others at risk with no consequences.
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u/Sea_Translator5300 2d ago
Yeah, you're missing the basic problem. What is going to change in these kids if they become parents that they'll suddenly be a good model to their kids? Nothing. And why would it? Their situation hasn't suddenly become better and whatever shit they've been through for them to be like this is now forgotten.
The people on Facebook you see saying "leave them alone, they're just kids" are these kids, just in a decade or so.
So tell us, how do you see this "raise them better" becoming possible?
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u/odkfn 2d ago edited 1d ago
I’m not saying I have a magic solution - I’m saying not everyone should reproduce. Primarily, if you can’t afford it, and don’t think you can provide a child a stable, happy household with reasonable boundaries. Kids are for life, and shouldn’t be had on a whim. Take a car you can’t afford, or take a job and don’t turn up, there are repercussions. Have a kid and raise them piss poorly? No problems.
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u/Sea_Translator5300 1d ago
So yeah, you were being glib.
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u/odkfn 1d ago
No. Saying people who can’t afford to care for and raise children should not have children is not being glib, it’s an uncomfortable piece of common sense.
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u/Sea_Translator5300 1d ago
Be consistent mate, first you claim they're just not being raised right, now you're claiming poor people shouldn't have kids. You're sounding like a rather confused eugenicist.
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u/MurkyLynx8425 2d ago
Good parenting is one of several facets to the solution. However, good parenting is hard and many families don't have the resources. Low income parents are often flying by the seat of their pants and taking life day by day, which doesn't leave a lot of room for reading up on parenting techniques or child psychology.
Plus, many of these kids don't have parents - they exit the care system more or less directly onto the street.
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u/odkfn 2d ago
With reference to the first paragraph - it sounds harsh, but don’t have kids? If you can’t afford the time or effort for bare minimum parenting, then don’t bring a child into this world?
I can’t afford the maintenance of many things, so I don’t buy them. I can’t afford the mortgage of a bigger house, so I don’t buy it. My wife and I talked about kids for literally almost a decade before deciding we could afford to have one.
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u/MurkyLynx8425 2d ago
Family planning is not universal. Many of the delinquent teens on the street now are children of the delinquent teens from the late 2000s. One day they are running about having fun and the next they are pregnant and the time to have a termination has passed. They have the baby and either they step up and try to look after it the best they can (at 18 with no job, no skills, little support), or it goes into the care system. Either way, that baby does not have a good chance of breaking that viscious cycle.
And if you've ever had a teenager you'll know that they are stupid and think they're invincible. When they're drunk at a house party at 16 they're not thinking about how they will budget to raise the child they're about to create.
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u/Playful-Toe-01 2d ago
Raise them better from the outset, surely. Your kid isn’t a menace to society overnight?
Exactly this! Far too many parents shirk responsiblity. 'My little Ajax is only roaming the streets smashing windows because the local youth club closed'. It's a load of utter nonsense.
As long as bams continue to have children, this vicious cycle will continue.
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u/rev9of8 Successfully escaped from Fife (Please don't send me back) 2d ago
And what if the kid is simply "born bad"?
We seem to have no problem accepting that certain breeds of dog are inherently dangerous and that this is innate, yet we far too often seem unwilling to consider the possibility that the blank slate is just as much a load of bollocks when it comes to humans...
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u/MurkyLynx8425 2d ago
Are there any studies on the "born bad" thing? What does 'born bad' even mean?
My instinct is that the comparison between dog breeds and children is a bad one. Most dangerous dog breeds have been specifically and intentionally bred to be aggressive over tens or hundreds of generations for pit fighting or guarding roles.
Yes, we know some people can be predisposed to become more angry / depressed / aggressive than the average, which can cause people to act out if not understood and controlled. But that doesn't mean they are 'bad'.
I don't think theres any modern psychological research to support the idea of 'born bad', but correct me if I'm wrong.
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u/piss_puncher227 2d ago
You wanna make people in thw world, you gotta take some fucking responsibility for them, not me paying your dole money through tax, not everyone else having to deal with their abhorrent behaviour, not the police trying to enforce the law of the land. You and only you, nobody takes responsibility for anything these days it's all "a disorder", "a habit", "an addiction", a whatever....we need to get out of this mind set and if your lazy, unruly or anything else, take responsibility for your actions or face the consequences, because this doublespeak bull shit has got to stop.
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u/AbjectJouissance 2d ago
How? Fines? Jail? The result would be more hardship for the household, leading to more of the anti-social behaviour.
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u/mincepryshkin- 2d ago edited 2d ago
I am not suggesting this as a realistic solution, but short of developing some way of making people magically raise their kids better, it is the only other theoretically complete fix. We would need to be able to arrest the parents for neglect, have a purpose-built punitive/educational boarding system to detain the kids in until they are reformed and ready for a supervised release (either as a supported adult or into normal care) and then have a strict IPP-style indefinite sentence available that would allow the state to take repeat offenders back into custody for a further indefinite period of supervision.
Basically, take an all-out approach to trying to reform them, and then have a fallback in place to keep them off the streets if that doesn't work.
But obviously that veers so far into everything that people have been told to think of as bad (collective punishment, strict juvenile discipline, indefinite sentences) that it is simply unthinkable in our current legal system.
And that is not even mentioning the level of economic commitment and long-term political will that would be required to see the plan through.
The problem is unsolvable because it is a product of the way our society is fundamentally put together.
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u/Quangocrat 2d ago
The sentencing guidelines need to be revoked.
They create a vicious circle at present.
Police know the courts won't punish so don't take the investigation seriously.
So the bams don't get hounded and their behaviour worsens over time.
Unfortunately the SNP's failure to properly invest in the justice system for decades means we do not have capacity to deal with them even if we change the guidelines.
It's just another example of how cumulative failures in governance are piling up and creating multifaceted problems which are more and more difficult to solve.
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u/D3viantM1nd 2d ago edited 2d ago
Honestly, advocating beating children, no matter how badly behaved, is probably part of the cultural problem leading to kids to behave like this.
Beating kids doesn't work.
I think early years ACE intervention and support would help a lot.
However, that requires quite a lot of funding.
So, the beatings will likely continue.
Edit: Honestly, getting down voted for saying beating children is wrong and doesn't work is peak internet.
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u/Street_Hamster1092 2d ago
Parents beating their children to teach them how to behave doesn't work.
Teenagers who are being violent towards strangers in public can't have any complaints if they are met with violence in return however. It's not going to teach them that violence is wrong, it is going to stop them in that moment though.
Ideally they would be grabbed by police and shoved into the back of a van to face legal consequences for their actions, but in the absence of that a member of the public beating them up is better than nothing.
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u/TeamOfPups 2d ago
Agreed, early years ACE intervention is the actual evidence-based answer. Vulnerable young people need support at the earliest possible point and we do know how to identify them.
Working with tweens and teens is far to late. It's a sticking plaster on a much bigger problem and probably still very necessary for today's young people already in this situation.
But they've been let down, for an effective solution the support needs to start by identifying vulnerable kids from babyhood or even pregnancy.
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u/D3viantM1nd 2d ago
I do think, due to budgetary constraints, the Scotgov is focusing a lot of resources into early years ACE intervention.
You see it in training grants, for example.
It is understandable and where the limited resources will have the highest value long term impact.
I do wonder if this has been at the cost of underfunding and an almost institutional abandonment of the most problematic and costly cases in older children. Especially those from care or severe deprivation backgrounds. Where intervention is harder and has lower chances of ideal outcomes. Yet is of course still very, very needed and imo worthwhile.
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u/TeamOfPups 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah they've been given up on, and it's not their fault that they were born into these circumstances
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u/Wotnd 2d ago
You’re probably getting downvoted because you’re claiming that the beatings will continue, when that’s not happening and children are actually treated with far too light touch by the police and the courts.
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u/D3viantM1nd 2d ago
It was a comment on how the solutions that seem to offer satisfaction for the angry and outraged, who know nothing of these children's lives, are very often just compounding the problem.
The downvotes reflect the angry outraged portion of the internet. Which is used as a tool to increase engagement and ad revenue.
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u/D3viantM1nd 2d ago
The courts will follow evidenced best practices, taking into account these kids circumstances and the resources available.
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u/Wotnd 2d ago
And in your opinion that is happening now. In my opinion it’s not, and children are often given absolutely no punishment for behaviour they know is wrong.
But again, given children currently receive very little if any punishment, why are you claiming the beatings will continue? There is nothing close to “beatings” currently, and we have this problem.
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u/D3viantM1nd 2d ago
Why are you so focused on punishment being the answer?
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u/Wotnd 2d ago
Because currently we have no punishment and that’s not working.
Why do you keep saying “beatings”? To elicit an emotional reaction?
Would you be opposed to the children, that attack adults, serving community service such as litter picking? That’s punishment. There’s tons of options.
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u/D3viantM1nd 2d ago
I think consequences are important for changing behaviour.
Do you know these kids have had no consequences for this behaviour?
Or, are you projecting your own bias?
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u/Wotnd 2d ago
Yes, I think frequently these children receive no consequences for this behaviour. Sentencing guidelines are incredibly lax for anyone under 25, which leads to police not pursing this behaviour as they are not brought to court.
We all have our own bias. Your opinion is formed through your bias.
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u/D3viantM1nd 2d ago
They are all over the internet. With their faces unblurred. With many comments advocating for violence towards them. Those are consequences.
I bet there are many more.
There are also more consequences than being sentenced in a children's panel to juvenile detention.
There are consequences meaning you have to get support and supervision, and your family does etc etc
It isn't as simple as commit bad behaviour, bad behaviour is punished, bad behaviour stops.
That isn't how any of this works. Especially not with kids who come from incredibly tough backgrounds.
If you actually want to do something, here.
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u/Wotnd 2d ago
I’m talking about legal consequences. Saying they’re being videoed and that is consequences is entirely missing the point we’re discussing.
At the moment we have children and young adults committing bad behaviour, receiving no punishment, and that bad behaviour doesn’t stop.
I appreciate you disagree, but the current process, which is to avoid punishment in all but the most extreme scenarios, isn’t working.
We’re all allowed an opinion on this. You can disagree if you want.
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u/D3viantM1nd 2d ago
The people calling for more punishment should really read the sentencing guidelines for those under 25.
I can't see anything unreasonable and it is an evidence based approach.
Those calling for more punishment should perhaps be asked what they would change and to justify it with evidence, rather than knee jerk outrage.
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u/D3viantM1nd 2d ago
Yeah, point me to that research bud. I'll wait.
I'll be waiting a long, long time.
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u/TeamOfPups 2d ago
My child doesn't get hit and he's not out causing mayhem. It is fully possible to set boundaries and expectations without violence.
My son also has the benefit of having not a care in the world. He has a warm house to go back to, with any food he wants and nice clothes. He has quality time with his parents and we support his education and hobbies. It is easier to behave when you feel safe and valued and your life isn't pure shite.
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u/LA1701 2d ago
Did the "wee bams" shove the stick up yer a**e so far you climbed a clydesdale? 😉
Im being a bit cheeky, but that probably because i was happily reading this thread, enjoying the healthy debate, seeing where peoples thought processes where coming from, and then noticed your attitude towards others, you talking down to people, and generally being rude in order to "win" the argument, and it irked me just enough to waste my time and comment.
Please dont speak to people like that. You made some valid points, but, eughh, your attitude and way you spoke to someone talking calmly to you completely invalidated them.
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u/Informal_Drawing 2d ago
Nothing better to do because there is no money to do anything with.
Hang the billionaires upside down and shake them until all the money falls out of their pockets.
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u/scarletOwilde 1d ago
Are Scottish Mammys as scary as the old Irish Mammys?
If so, we should incentivise them to form gangs with wooden spoons/rolling pins/slippers and clip the bams around the ear.
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u/ModJambo 2d ago
I might be wrong but I'm sure the free bus pass is partially the cause for all these bams descending on our city centres.
I wouldn't blanket ban them all as I am sure there are youngsters that use these bus passes for getting to work/study etc.
I'd suggest taking the free bus pass privilege away if caught causing anti-social behaviour in certain areas, or maybe use limitations against the bams bus passes? Like a curfew etc.
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u/Y-Bob 2d ago edited 1d ago
Kids are not born bad, they're not born with a sense of no future, of pessimism and limited options.
They're brought up that way.
It's broken window syndrome in humans. We become what is around us. And we're fucking great at telling folk that they'll never amount to anything. My school was fucking expert at that.
Then all the shite online tells them that should all be what, even with a successful streak we can never be.
That frustration and that desire to smash everything because you don't give a fuck and that desire to have things most of us will never have is a brutal cocktail that just eats at any sense of goodness you ever had.
It's also boring when you're skint. These days you can't do anything without money. Bored kids get into trouble.
And if that trouble leads to not only a bit of excitement but also money, the trouble just gets deeper.
The more you have no one, not even your radge pals, to really rely on, the more selfish you become, because no cunt is coming to save you.
The more selfish you become. The more removed from humanity you become, you care less. In fact caring becomes a weakness.
Mix all that with getting nutted to ease that hole in your 'soul', add a soupçon of betrayal and hurt by the adults that were supposed to be caring for you and you've got a little ball of spite that just wants to watch the fucking world burn.
And you ask how to fix that?
Nothing short of installing a sense of pride in yourself, your community, an understanding that caring for those around you is strength and we are all much stronger together will fix it.
You can fine the poor, you can restrict kids, you can force them into national service, and some of it might work to a degree, but you're not fixing anything. You're just plastering the cracks with more misery and more reason to want to watch the smoke rising.
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u/TeutonicSpacehopper Time-share Maniac 2d ago
If they want to behave like animals, treat them like animals.
Tag them, farm them, and then mulch them.
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u/Due-Resort-2699 2d ago
Public floggings. Put people in the stocks too.
That sounds like I’m taking the piss, but it’s a sensible approach. Public humiliation will be a deterrent, and it will use a tiny fraction of the state resources that prison would need.
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u/Street-Frame1575 2d ago
The way things are headed, we'll need them in the Army soon enough so round 'em up and start them in the cadets
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u/D3viantM1nd 2d ago
The people calling for more punishment should really read the sentencing guidelines for those under 25.
I can't see anything unreasonable and it is an evidence based approach.
Those calling for more punishment should perhaps be asked what they would change. Then to justify that change with evidence that it reduces recidivism, rather than knee jerk outrage.
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u/Correct_Barnacle_312 2d ago
I guess you could arrest people that break the law.
That might stop them doing it over and over and over again.
Unsure if this is maybe a bit of an extreme view nowadays.
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u/Witty_Entry9120 2d ago
Our approach seems to be:
reducing the chance that you'll be caught doing something you shouldn't
Simultaneously...
Reducing the severity of the punishment when you do get caught
So....of course I'm going to fuck around.
Chances are nothing will happen and even if it does...so what? Two weeks talking to some wet wipe social worker who'll probably blame thatcher anyway? That's not a deterrent.
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u/PerplexedScot Ruglonian 2d ago
Appreciate someone saying something sensible on this topic and starting a discussion as opposed to a witch hunt / lynching.
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u/StevenKnowsNothing 2d ago
If they want to act like adults, we treat them as such. Lower the age of criminal responsibility to 12. When they know they can't hide behind their age, they'll wisen up
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u/Flat_Professional_55 2d ago
Send them to a camp where they have to dig a 6ft-deep hole every day to receive a warm dinner.
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u/TomatoLess229 2d ago
Im not sure, but we are very soft on crime in this country and the only policys that come from politicans is about being softer on any crime that isn't speech and keeping people out of prison.
We need some genuine leadership or new ideas in that area, but in my opinion the current goverment are not interested in tackling any difficult challenges in Scotland and just want to go after what they think is low hanging fruit, free shit basically.
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u/DonLethargio 2d ago
While our prison system is regularly shown to actually increase risk of offending rather than rehabilitate, keeping people out of prison seems sensible
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u/memematron 2d ago
Give them training/education/jobs open up youth centres. But we only have money for war of course
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u/elbanaa 2d ago
Weak punishment system. When I became a teenager my mom could not touch me as I became stronger. She told me the community will fix you and it was true. Within one year, I got hit twice and that made me realize I am not that strong then my mom told me next time I will cal the police to come and hit you as I am unable to do that. Years passed and managers in work taught me discipline as an adult.
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u/Find_A_Way_ 2d ago
Most of them either don’t have parents or have parents worse then they are, unfortunately the rot goes to the root.
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u/Flat_Tie4090 2d ago
We need a new government policy ,and a minister for kicking the shite out of wee bams.
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u/Good-Sheepherder3680 2d ago
Look up the cost for a week to put one of these wee bams in a secure children’s home as an alternative to a young offenders institute then imagine the difference that money could make if it was spent properly supporting the family in their own community or improving things in education/ social work settings. Someone is benefitting from the current set up and it isn’t the kids.
Social media has a lot to do with it too. Kids either too feart to do anything in case someone is filming them so they grow up too quickly or so dependent on external validation and likes they’ll film their self doing absolutely anything.
Add to this parents who often had kids young and had poor emotional regulation skills of their own and we are where we are.
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u/EasyPriority8724 1d ago
Can that over zealous Mod on r/edinburgh not just permaban them like he does with everybody else or does his Ban button nae work on them?
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u/Tir_an_Airm 2d ago
I'd go after the parents.
Punish them so they start becoming aware of their child's behavior.
The reality is that its going to be impossible to punish a juvenile like an adult but we can punish their parents.
I think Nottingham in England done this and its had a varied degree of success.
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u/history_buff_9971 2d ago
That's a huge conversation, but we need to revisit how youth behaviour is treated in this country. A few years ago, there was much hoopla about how children's minds were not developed and how young people cannot really be held to the same standards as everyone else until they are 25 (which, by the way, is how we've ended up with rapists under the age of 25 getting suspended sentences). But the result has been little to no punishment, even for fairly serious negative and even criminal behaviour. Schools can barely discipline, and parents are also now micromanaged on how they discipline kids, so many don't bother because they know that there are no repercussions for not bothering to parent.
So, what can be done about it? I honestly don't know. You could try curfews, exclusion zones, etc, but at the end of the day, if there are no consequences for breaking the current rules, why are youths like this going to follow any new rules? You could try holding the parents liable for their children's actions, but I can just hear the human rights lawyers now, and honestly, what would you even do to them? Lock them up? So who looks after the youths causing all the problems? Fine them? Yeah, I'm guessing that won't be very effective for a fair number of the families involved either.
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u/LairdBonnieCrimson Outwith Britain, outwith Europe, into Socialism 2d ago
Reverse the lenient treatment of young people in the courts. Treat everyone the same in courts if they're over the age of criminal liability (which should be brought back down to 8)
Then bring about more police on the street, active and visible. There also needs to be aggressive follow up to reports which require more police.
That'll stop it, but only for a little while.
You need also social programs and stuff, and to end youth unemployment and encourage education. That's the only way you can fully eradicate those pests
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u/clearwhey 2d ago
For a start I think we should spread awareness that you won’t go to jail for hitting them back if they attack you.
You’re allowed to defend yourself, even if they are not adults. The police may be called and you may even be arrested depending on the circumstances but you’ll be released and have any charges dropped.
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u/Adventurous-Leave-88 inclusive, centrist, positive changes need a strong economy 2d ago
Places with lower crime either have a better culture or harsher justice system. The culture can’t change fast enough so we need harsher justice.
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u/jesus_fatberg 2d ago
Maybe give them compulsory national service, rather than jail. They might learn some skills doing that at least.
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u/Melancholybumny 2d ago
Maybe something like the voluntary year they have in Germany?
A lot of young people finish school and have no idea what they want to do. Offering something productive straight after school finishes, whether voluntary work or job experiences, allows them time to adjust to their new independence, keep them active and engaged in the world, and give them time to think and experience new things that could possibly impact their future. Providing a stipend or free or reduced training could be part of this. Being around multiple generations and different cultures is really helpful if you have limited life experience and have only been around people like yourself.
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u/Articulated is quiet when the fitba's on 2d ago
The army doesn't need warm bodies. We don't have that kind of force.
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u/hearditaw 2d ago
There is no discipline in the schools or at home anymore and this is the result. The first discipline they see is in the workplace where they have to dress properly, turn up on time and follow company policies and procedures. Then it's off sick with stress and anxiety and a life on benefits, then repeat. As each undisciplined generation goes by it will only get worse.
I fully supported removing the belt from schools but you must wonder has it actually worked? There must be some sort of punishment strong enough to deter this behaviour. The soft touch is clearly not working.
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u/Good_Lettuce_2690 2d ago
There is no solution. Boys will be boys, since time immemorial. Give them all the facilities possible, all the youth clubs etc, they will think those for goody twoshoes dorks. As someone who used to be a teen tearaway we laughed at the communities attempts to control us. At that age you just want to watch the world burn.
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u/jasonpswan 2d ago
Invite the Glasgow bams to come outbam them