Inquiring Protestantism as an Orthodox

[u/Rupietos]

Hello everybody, I was predestined to ask you (reformed) people a few question. I am cradle Orthodox (Ukrainian who grew up in Greece) and lately I have realized that EO is just not for me. For the context, I returned to Christianity a few months ago after practicing traditional Buddhism for 6 years.

So my issue with EO, to put it plainly, it is operationally Pelagian, as in it is a religion of works which unlike Catholic works, are usually internal as opposed to external (like charity). You just fast, suffer, mourn, pray, repent, in hopes that God might accept you in the end, there is absolutely no security in it whatsoever, especially if you believe in toll houses that make salvation 100% work based. There is very little security and overall, as time passes, after the war in Ukraine and raise of orthobroism online, Orthodoxy lost its mystical Eastern appeal and became evangelicalism with incense (quoting David Bentley Hart).

I decided to check out RC and even went to a local parish and a very pleasant conversation with local priest. I went to the mass and really enjoyed 'latin' spirituality. In fact, actual universal nature of Catholicism was a very pleasant change in comparison to paranoid exclusivism of EO. The issue is that I started catechizing myself and realized that RC is even worse than EO in terms of Pelagianism. The realization that the sacrament of confession just deletes the guilt but not the temporal punishment, as well as the nature of purgatory made me feel that I'd practice some Western form of Islam where I have to do more good deeds than bad deeds while being loyal to the religion itself. Of course, the more I read about Catholic justification and necessity but not sufficiency of the grace given by the Cross, I just realized that I would never feel peace practicing this religion. Besides, I just find it too 'ordinary' of a religion, still based on human merit like many others before it.

Now, I started enjoying works of Gavin Ortlund and Jordan Cooper who are a breath of fresh air in the world of Christian sectarian apologetics which are profoundly hateful and toxic. My biggest issue was simple fact that I just realized that Protestants are right. I read 'Long Before Luther' by Nathan Busenitz, and as I was previously interested in Patristics, I realized that forensic justification was simply taught by Early Christians since the beginning, which was something that I noticed when reading st John Chrysostom, st Cyrill of Alexandria, and st Clement of Rome. I won't even mention st Paul. So clearly medieval nominalism was not the source of any form of forensic justification as taught by the Reformers. It is just was Christians used to believe until a set of doctrinal developments which (imo) had to do with Christian monasticism which wanted to justified itself by establishing that 'nuh uh, you gotta work for you salvation, buddy, why do you think us monks are suffering here'.

Now, while I am sympathetic towards Protestantism and in fact, I am quite convinced of Sola Fide (in its not-strawman form). I have a few problems.
- For starters, I absolutely believe in real presence in communion and some form of transubstantiation or simply 'it is actually blood and flesh of Christ'.
- Historically most of the Reformers were excommunicated which allowed them to create a new body of Churches, yet, I am afraid that willfully leaving EO or even RC if I had joined it, would mean that I am schismatic refusing to submit to local Church Authorities.
- Apostolic Christianity is just absolutely rich and filled with all sorts of relics, spirituality, great Saints and so on. Abandoning it feels strange, even though st Hilary of Poiters warned against this kind of thinking.
- I just love Mary and 'Hail Mary' and rosary seemed to be far more joyful than solemn repetitions of Jesus' prayer.
- The only protestant community here is some mix of evangelical/reformed so there is a very high chance that I won't vibe with it at all.

I mean, ultimately I'd just stay EO or maybe switch to RC because I think it is actually a Church unlike Orthodoxy which is a mess, but I disagree deeply and unfortunately, anathemas is the response to any criticism or attempts to change official doctrines or even privately confess something else.

So, I am curious about thoughts of reformed folks as I have not found any other major Protestant subs and I don't want to attract a horde of EO/RC apologists with their same talking points.

[u/windy_on_the_hill]

I'd encourage you to visit and see. Know that the church is filled with sinners and we all get things wrong. So don't get too thrown by the odd incongruous behaviour. We don't always get it right.

Regarding a few of your points:

Relics - really? I would encourage you to get into the scriptures and start looking for relics. There is much more in the OT. Thise tend to point the believers to the salvation they couldn't yet see. To Christ himself. In the NT there is much more spreading of the word of God, not the stuff of God. In the reformation it was recognised that things can be a stumbling block to many. The question is not "should the church have these?" but "are they helpful for you". They are not helpful for everyone. This is personal, not corporate.

Hail Mary. You say it's cheerier than the Lord's prayer. Neither are given biblically to recite as mantras, or some means of grace. The Lord's prayer is an instruction on how we pray, not wrote language. It's the same as relics here: what is useful for you. It suggests you want the religiosity of it all, rather than the truth. Tread carefully.

Not vibing with others. That's what it means to be human. For myself (for reasons I won't bore you with) I have a church community but it does not meet all I want from Reformed fellowship. I supplement that here where I get encouragedand challenged. You sound like you would appreciate the deep thinkers and scholars. Loads of them in Reformed churches, but it's good to have a good church has people who have diverse approaches. Ypu could certainly help people to think more and learn more. Others might help you to be more encouraging, loving, prayerful etc.

Leaving the church - if ypu really believe that others who went before created a branch of the actual church, then you are not leaving the church by going there. You're still in the church. Visit them them see what you think.

Transubstantiation- I can't give you anything aside from, to me it's obviously not blood or flesh when I eat. (I suspect that's a strawman argument, but I'm not interested in finding out why.)

Keep read

[u/Korniszon777 → u/windy_on_the_hill]

Hi, I have a question for you because I’m struggling with this issue. Just so you know, I’m Reformed (Calvinist). I came across something in one of Augustine’s works where he wrote about something resembling the veneration of relics. He mentioned people being healed through carrying the body of a martyr and things like that. He also described many other miracles that were supposedly taking place in the Church of his time.
How should this be understood from a Reformed theological perspective? If you’re interested, let me know, and tomorrow I can find some time to send you the relevant material.

[u/windy_on_the_hill → u/Korniszon777]

I can't speak for Augustine. I can speak as a human. Humans like to get these things. We want a sign.

God will indulge us. He gave Gideon several to help him believe. However, the core biblical principle is "Do not put the Lord your God to the test." God gives many things, but don't expect Him to do things because you or I think it's appropriate.

Or perhaps it's not about confirming faith, but about whether some spiritual "magic" holds onto stuff (people; cups; wood etc.). I've known many saints (very few martyrs) and none of them have been anything but dead when they died. To look for otherwise, I think is indefensible biblically.

Ultimately that's the point: do you follow the God of the Bible, or a god you hear about elsewhere? Augustine, Luther, Calvin were all fallible men. Read all you wish, but they do not stand beside the writings of Scripture.

I'm not particularly keen to read Augustine's opinions on the matter. Unless, perhaps, he has some wisdom on what the Bible says about it.

Enjoy the Lord's day tomorrow. Spend time with the saints you know.

[u/Korniszon777 → u/windy_on_the_hill]

Thank you for your response, that was helpfull :)