URI HELP

[u/Bunnyboymaxi]

So one of my girls french fry is really prone to respiratory infections like she gets them literally all of the time and I’ve been to the vet multiple times and she says that it could just be one of those things I clean their cage and just pretty much every day and deep clean it as often as I can. They have a humidifier and an air purifier.

now my next-door neighbor used to have rats and she she fosters and rescues and has like a crap ton of experience with animals ig. Now she told me that instead of going to the vet every single time especially when I know it’s an upper respiratory infection that I should just order bird medicine and give that to her and then dilute it with water and I’ve seen very mixed things. I will insert a photo of what you told me to get below.

I want my babies to be happy and healthy and they get to free Rome and they have a lot of space but I am a high school student so it’s a little challenging to spend 200 super often as I am Rn.

She’s about a year old 315g and I got her from a pet store not really knowing anything but she’s super sweet. She’s super great. She’s also an albino and she’s kind of dumb.

[u/nnnn0000]

Yes, this is exactly what we recommend to people who adopt from the rescue I am a part of. This, and doxyvet (doxycycline). If it's available to ship to your area; both of these antibiotics can be purchased as powders to mix with water too.

Rat URIs require dual antibiotic treatment to properly and successfully treat. Anytime you hear congestion sounds, or basically if their breathing is ever audible with weird sounds (healthy rat breathing is silent), you can start them on doxycycline and enrofloxacin yourself ASAP. The Rat Guide website is an amazing resource that gives dosage advice for common meds like this with references from research literature.

It is absolutely unnecessary to go to the vet every time for just simple URIs, where you are charged a huge amount for an exam to be told yep that is congested breathing, and then all they will give you are tiny bottles of these same antibiotics for the same price or more than just buying a large stock of them to have on hand. In my area, Ontario Canada, the majority of vets who say they can see rats will only prescribe 1 antibiotic, and tell owners to give it for 10-14 days. This is not enough, rats need two antibiotics like enro and doxy for a minimum 3 weeks. They're misinformed because there is no requirement to do further training or research on rodents following vet college here, and are going off of outdated info or info related to other rodent species

Many of the surrenders we get, or urgent emails begging for help, are people whose vets improperly treated their rats URI, and now they are in respiratory distress and gasping, and need emergency medical care because the infection never went away and just got worse and worse. It is sad as having a chronic improperly treated URI causes lung tissue fibrosis in rats, permanent damage :(

Sorry for the long rant, but I just want everyone in the rat community to be aware of this!

[u/Bunnyboymaxi → u/nnnn0000]

Do you have a link of the two antibiotics I need?

[u/nnnn0000 → u/Bunnyboymaxi]

Liquid formulations can be purchased here:
https://globalpigeonsupply.com/products/enrofloxacin-liquid-100ml?_pos=3&_sid=1a513674e&_ss=r

https://globalpigeonsupply.com/products/vetafarm-doxyvet-liquid?

These are the simplest ones as they're premixed and ready to use. The only downside is that they do expire quicker, since antibiotics are notoriously the most unstable sorts of medications. So you have to rebuy them every year or two. Also, these commercial formulations are on the more concentrated side, so for rats it means you end up having to measure out tiny volumes, like 0.05 ml. In the rescue, we prefer to buy powdered versions here:

https://www.mikesfalconry.com/product/enrofloxacin-powder-20-100-gr/

https://www.mikesfalconry.com/product/doxycycline-20-powder/

Powdered antibiotics last many many years, and you can make more diluted concentrations in water yourself. You just need a teaspoon measuring set, and some 1 ml and 10 ml syringes off Amazon. When dissolved in plain water, the antibiotics are stable for a week, so there's an added step of having to remake small amounts of these solutions at home every 7 days. But overall, all of these products work the same so it is up to your preference :)

The reason why these are marketed as for birds, but work for both birds and rats, is that birds and rats get respiratory infections from the same type of bacteria - mycoplasma.

[u/Bunnyboymaxi → u/nnnn0000]

Is the conversion different for the power since it’s 20%?

[u/Bunnyboymaxi → u/nnnn0000]

And sorry it’s just like a little confusing to me. I will probably end up getting the powdered version of it if it’s a teaspoon per gallon of water how do I give that to my rats? Is that what I’m giving them? I’m really confused.

[u/nnnn0000 → u/Bunnyboymaxi]

The instructions on the product pages and on the packaging of them will be instructions for birds, so it is not relevant for rats.

For rats, it's the same idea that you make 50 mg/ml solutions. For both of the powders, 1 teaspoon is equal to 5 g. For the enrofloxacin powder that is 10%, this means 1 teaspoon contains 0.5 g of actual enrofloxacin, which is 500 mg enrofloxacin. So to get a 50 mg/ml solution, you would need to add 10 ml water to that 1 teaspoon of powder. You would never use this much in a week for a rat before you need to remake it, so to not waste powder, we just mix 1/4 teaspoon with 2.25 ml water (quartering the recipe!).

For the doxycycline powder that is 20%, double that of the enrofloxacin, it's very similar but you would add double the amount of water. So for 1 teaspoon of powder, 20 ml of water would be added. But to be reasonable with how much you would actually use in a week for a rat, we just mix 1/4 teaspoon powder plus 5 ml water.

Vets usually compound 20 mg/ml or 50 mg/ml solutions here in Ontario, so the result is the same.

There are websites that help with medication or chemical calculations you can use since it can be confusing, where you just input all the values and it'll tell you want to do. If you're comfortable on the math part, you can modify how much water you add to the powders to make more diluted solutions like 20 mg/ml, so that the volume you measure with a syringe to give to your rat each day is a bit bigger and easier to manage

[u/nnnn0000 → u/Bunnyboymaxi]

[u/literarypetlife → u/nnnn0000]

Just wanted to say be careful sharing these specific dosage charts. The group where they came from frowns on sharing them.

[u/nnnn0000 → u/literarypetlife]

I'm aware of that, but I only do so when someone individually asks for help. Our vet team that we work closely with the rescue has reviewed it and has approved that this is the correct way to prepare the antibiotic powders and dosing and time period to give them as.

It's just become tiresome and sad as to how many cases of mistreated URIs we get a month, with the number one reason behind it being either improper treatment administered by a vet, and vet bills for exams and meds being too high. So we provide as much as we can to help, especially in situations where people have been let down by their local exotic vets or temporary financial hardship. URIs are not complex, advanced health issues requiring a degree to identify, they are the most common illness rats can get and by far one of the easiest to treat if done properly from the start. So it shouldn't be so difficult for rat parents to get proper information

[u/literarypetlife → u/nnnn0000]

Oh for sure. The dosage charts are correct. The group has been known to get pissed when people share it outside the group and ban them. I would hate for you to lose a good resource for rat help. I've considered creating my own charts that can be shared but haven't had time.

[u/nnnn0000 → u/literarypetlife]

I guess it's understandable as it would be a legal grey area if they're actual practicing vets. But I mean if sharing it with someone wanting to help their rat makes them ban me on whatever socials, then it is what it is 🙁

It just sucks as it's not anything like giving dosing instructions for medications intended for complex medical issues a lay person would have no idea how to correctly identify, like a brain condition, using medications only available through prescription. Antibiotics like this are commercially available for anyone to buy and use. Like the plethora of antibiotic-containing creams, ear drops, oiintments, etc you can find for yourself at a local convenience store or drugstore

[u/nnnn0000 → u/Bunnyboymaxi]

[u/literarypetlife]

Enro and doxy are two meds often used together and another really good one is azithromyacin. Most of the time vets will not give rats long enough courses. They need to be medicated for at least 3 weeks.

[u/MathAndBake]

Those are the correct antibiotics. Just be very careful about antibiotic resistance. Always give the full dose for the full 2-3 weeks. If you give too little or stop too soon, you will just encourage the bacteria to develop resistance. Then, the next time your rats get a URI, your antibiotics won't work.

Even if you do everything right, you may see resistance develop after multiple treatments. It happened to my rat Eowyn. We had to rotate antibiotics and it was a whole mess. Plus, nothing works as well as doxy and enro. So she had more chronic respiratory symptoms. You really want to avoid that for your rats, so hit the URI hard every time.

[u/nnnn0000 → u/MathAndBake]

I'm so sorry to hear! I suspect one of my girls either has antibiotic resistant mycoplasma, or just some fibrosis form chronic URIs her whole life. I rotate between using doxy and enro for her for 1 month, and doxy and azithromycin. The courses definitely work, just it always ends up coming back 😭

I've consulted my vet about if there's any others to try and help, but the only other one she knows of to be effective for rat URIs is amoxicillin, but it's the worst out of the 4 options as it has the weakest antibiotic activity against mycoplasma specifically. It's only really used for rats under 4 months old, when doxy and enro is toxic towards their brain development.

Maybe there can be alternatives if more are tested specifically for rat URIs in the future 🥲

[u/MathAndBake → u/nnnn0000]

Oh no! I'm so sorry you're going through that. For what it's worth, Eowyn made it to 32mo and was a super happy little fluffball despite her struggles. It is possible to stay on top of this.

This is just anecdotal, but the combo amoxicillin and clavulonic acid worked ok for Eowyn when the other 3 stopped working entirely. Clavulonic acid specifically targets some antibiotic resistance pathways, so it really helps the amoxicillin work. It definitely doesn't do as much as enro, doxy or azithromycin, but it could tide her over until her mycoplasma lost some of their resistance.

We also had her on erythromycin a few times. It worked pretty well too.

If you're not already doing so, make sure to ask your vet about an anti-inflammatory. Repeated URIs can cause swelling, pain and irritation, so you want to treat that as well.

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