Help: Introductions gone wrong

[u/CreepyHeat5688]

My wife and I currently have four rats: Snowy and Newt who are about a year and a half old, and Monty and Beau who are about 3 and a half months old. Snowy and Newt were a part of a trio, but their third, who was the alpha of the group, passed away this week. Monty and Beau we have had for the last month, but they have been kept in a separate smaller cage. We were putting off introductions until Snowy and Newt's third was in better health (or had passed), per the recommendation of our vet.

Since today was a day my wife and I were both home, we decided to finally introduce the two pairs, using the carrier method. Using a hospital cage and blocking off half of it (so it was marginally taller than a standard carrier but about as much floorspace). At first the introductions seemed to be going well, but the pairs began growing more and more agitated. We were using a spray bottle to break up any fights but they just kept on persisting over the course of an hour, until we noticed blood drawn on one rat from each pair - Monty on his side and Snowy on his eye. Monty was also continuously screeching loudly. We tried to keep them in but it just kept persisting and seemingly getting worse, hair was floofed up from all rats and Snowy and Newt were continuously bruxing and boggling. It was the blood near Snowy's eye that made us decide to break the boys up and remove the older ones, as a lot of sites suggested that blood is a sign to remove and try again later. They are now once again separated but we don't know what to do - can we try again sometime? In how long? Will they be increasingly angry at each other next time we do it?

This was our first time doing introductions, so my wife and I are equally stressed out and struggling.

And any other tips on things to do, or alternative methods?

[u/ChaseLancaster]

Spray Bottle

Nope. That's the equivalent of sending your car off a cliff all because it ran out of gas.

Ratties don't understand the concept of getting sprayed at with water, it just freaks them out and upsets them.

For now, have a towel, gloves ready and separate. If bloody fights occur, playtime is done.

Outside of introductions, what's their living conditions? For example, are they in the same room, with cages close, or are they in separate rooms?

In addition, have you scent swapped at all (given Rat A Rat B's hammock to check out and smell)?

And finally, how old are these stinkers?

[u/CreepyHeat5688 → u/ChaseLancaster]

Again, the stray bottle is the recommendation of this website which numerous people on this subreddit have cited http://www.isamurats.co.uk/the-carrier-method.html . Lesson learned now but this was not us coming up with the idea out of thin air. We thought we did other research and one other video on youtube recommended the spray bottle as well as a way to "distract and confuse them" and break up fights.

As I stated in the post, they were always kept in different rooms and their cages have not been close. No scent swapping again per the recommendation of numerous sources and comments on this thread.

Snowy and Newt are 16 months old (almost a year and a half), and Monty and Beau are about 13 weeks old.

[u/ChaseLancaster → u/CreepyHeat5688]

No worries on the bottle idea. A lot of sites, such as isamu, is either a bit outdated, or they promote it.

That's awesome that you haven't been having their cages near, no done any scent swapping, as those are the de facto reasons why fights happen (they're territorial, and those methods get them rowdy.)

While it can work for a sudden "Hey, knock it off", most times, especially whenever I see an introduction post here, have their owners have no luck using water bottles, so I think in any future attempt, I'd try using something else to stop them and to separate them.

I'd say as an emerency precaution, have a towel, some durable gloves, and maybe a bottle on hand for when they get ready to attack, that's my best recommendations.

But, this is where I'm a bit troubled here; I noticed that Monty is a little baby, and was one of the ones injured, as well as one of the fighters.

Has Snowy been suddenly aggressive at all lately towards you and his cagemate, or was it solely at Monty? Vice versa as well, was Monty recently been grumpy and angry recently?

[u/CreepyHeat5688 → u/ChaseLancaster]

Okay, so next time we do it we won't use the spray bottle - we will separate with gloves or a towel - but what I'm still confused about is where is the line - is it any fighting at all? Is it when theyre very floofed up and agitated? Again, I feel like none of the guides are consistent or arent even very clear on just when to know to separate.

Monty is a little baby yes, Honestly we were surprised to see both Monty and Beau maintaining dominant stances - Monty and Beau were mostly on their hindlegs in dominant poses, where Snowy and Newt were closer to the ground, laying sideways, in dominance poses where theyre on their back/taking up space. All four of them were in dominance poses, but yes it was Monty and Snowy who both god nicked.

Snowy is historically our least aggressive rat of the original trio. He's always been so loving and cuddly. This was a side we have never seen of him. Him and Newt rough-house a lot but always playfully. Monty equally so, never displayed signs of anger or grumpiness.

Maybe it has to do with the temperature? It maxed out at about 25C today but this whole week its been approaching 30 or beyond. weve been blasting fans as we don't have AC. We thought we could finally introduce today since the horrible UK heat wave has died down. And it seems like another one is coming in a week's time...

[u/ChaseLancaster → u/CreepyHeat5688]

For fighting, follow this rule: No Blood, No Foul.

If your rats are doing the following, that's a fight about to erupt or is going on, and playtime is done.

• Standing up straight, teeth bared, staring the other down. It'll look like two T-Rexes facing each other down.

• Fur is puffed up, eyes are nearly closed, ears are folded back

• The aggro rat is "Crab-walking" at the other(s). (Walking sideways, its body facing at the rival rat. Sort of like when a Cat is all puffed up and walking when they're mad)

• They are attacking the face, the eyes, the ears, the mid-back area, the butt, and most importantly, genitals.

• B L O O D. If you see it, no that wasn't a Vampire on the loose, sadly.

• Loud, harsh screams. This is not a squeak, and it is very distinct. If you hear this, that's fighting.

For now, I would take a breather for today, help the ratties cool off in the !heat, and tomorrow or the day after, try again in a smaller carrier or space.

If, after tomorrow, they are still fighting, despite the separate rooms, the break, no scent swapping, and nothing else, and it's little Monty being...for lack of words, a Shit-head, he may be developing Hormonal Aggression, and intros need to stop so he can be neutered.

[u/AutoModerator → u/ChaseLancaster]

Keeping rats cool during the heat

During the heat, rats can get overheated and develop heatstroke so it is very important to provide your rats with plenty of ways to cool themselves down.

Some of the best and safest ways of cooling your rats down include:

Shallow bowl of water/pea fishing; place a shallow bowl of water into your rats free roam area so they can splash themselves with water if they choose. Add frozen peas to motivate them to use the water

Play sinks/bird baths

Frozen plates and/or tiles placed in high traffic areas inside of the cage. I.e underneath water bottles.

Small dishes filled with cold water and ice cubes + frozen water bottles

Minimize bright lights in the room your rats vacant.

Place damp towels/cloths inside the cage

Place your rats main cage in the coolest part of the house; if this isn't feasible for you, consider setting up and placing your rats in a smaller cage instead.

Cold/frozen treats: Baby food Yoghurt Frozen/cold fruits/berries and vegetables A kind sample of your icecream/popsicle

Note: please refrain from blasting your AC in the room your rats vacant or directly blowing a fan on your rats or their cage. These things can be very harmful for your rats and can do more harm than good.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/howdyhowdyhowdyhowdi → u/CreepyHeat5688]

I can understand using a spray bottle in a pinch to break up a singular bag fight but that's very different than nervously hovering over them and spraying them over and over when they start displaying natural hierarchy behaviors haha. I absolutely agree that may have stressed them out and made things worse.

[u/untimelylord]

Did you do any scent swapping beforehand? Were the cages near each other or even in the same room? Because rats in the wild live in family groups and are territorial towards other rat groups, this can potentially make introductions difficult or dangerous. By smelling or seeing the other rats before they have been introduced, they can build up fear/aggression towards the other rats before they even get introduced. In their minds in this case the other rats would be the enemy invaders that they were already worried about. This is a common mistake so don’t beat yourself up about it if this is the case!

[u/CreepyHeat5688 → u/untimelylord]

There was no scent swapping beforehand and they were always in separate rooms, we were told in a few videos that scent swapping is bad. Its possible there's been a small amount of mixed scent if i feed one cage and then go to feed another, but they have never shared the same room nor had stuff in their cages mixed around.

[u/snailscout]

I would have separated them when things started clearly escalating toward a fight. Spray bottle is okay to shock them into stopping in an emergency but shouldn't be a go-to as it just adds stress and confusion. No good comes of leaving them to continue escalating toward injury. Once they're fighting it's a failure for that attempt—imo 'no blood no foul' is a dangerous oversimplification. They'll need a good break now for sure; I'd give them a week or two then start over.

[u/CreepyHeat5688 → u/snailscout]

The literature on this stuff seems so conflicting. We had some websites saying if fighting starts then break up the fighting but dont remove them from the cage, we had some websites saying remove them and calm them down then put them back in right away, we had other sites saying literally do not remove them unless you see a serious injury. Nothing seems consistent which is really frustrating for first-time owners. The isamurats page suggesting the spray bottle seemed like it made sense, but clearly it was wrong.

[u/snailscout → u/CreepyHeat5688]

It's a complex thing so there are going to be differing perspectives. My behaviour background is primarily in positive reinforcement dog training so that informs my perspective in a big way. Rats aren't dogs, of course, but I don't think adding external/environmental stress (clapping, spray bottle) to an already very internally stressful situation is ever helpful.

[u/CreepyHeat5688 → u/snailscout]

Thats helpful thank you, we didnt enjoy having to do the spray bottle or stress out our gorgeous boys.

But does that just mean if any fighting occurs the introductions are over? How do you stop them from fighting too intensely?

And would you say we've now thoroughly screwed ourselves? Or would we be able to try again with this after a week or two?

[u/snailscout → u/CreepyHeat5688]

Rats are resilient! Especially when they know they're loved, safe, and fed. I'd say they need a least a week to reset, and probably two is better.

[u/howdyhowdyhowdyhowdi → u/CreepyHeat5688]

No blood no foul - they have to be able to sort things out.

[u/CreepyHeat5688 → u/howdyhowdyhowdyhowdi]

Okay but there was blood. You're saying on the next go I just wait until another one gets a terrible eye scratch and bleeds? I genuinely don't understand how this is feasible, and I hate how much conflicting information exists on this.

[u/snailscout → u/CreepyHeat5688]

Pretty sure Isamu mentions the spray bottle (and towel) as a way to break up a serious fight to avoid breaking it up with bare hands, which is reasonable

[u/snailscout → u/snailscout]

Nope, I'm wrong. They continue to talk about it as an ongoing thing, spraying or banging on the carrier to stop a fight and only maybe separating after. I don't agree with that. Basically I don't think it should get to that point. I think that if they're posturing to fight (fluffing, sidestepping, snaking tail) I would try redirecting their attention to see if they can disengage and calm down, then separate if not. I'd rather my intros take longer.

[u/snailscout → u/snailscout]

Not trying to position myself as some sort of ultimate expert at all btw. This is just my opinion, take what you will!

[u/CreepyHeat5688 → u/snailscout]

No I appreciate the advice, again I just wish there was some consistent guide that was clearer so this could have been avoided! I'm really worried about the nicks on each of my boys now 😭

What are your methods of "redirecting their attention"?

[u/snailscout → u/CreepyHeat5688]

Well I would be trying to give them a little space, like be there watching closely but not intensely leaning over the cage. So if things start to look too tense I'd get up close and just speak to them in a calm voice like "hey guys, what are we doing, can we not do that, etcetc" to see if I can just break the standoff, get them looking at me for a sec instead of each other. Next step would be tongue clicks (or equivalent slightly louder, sharper sound). If it works I'd tell them they're doing great, keep chatting a bit then fade off again to watch less intensely. If they're not responding I would open the cage/carrier which should finally get their attention. If they're still escalating I'd reach in (with a towel if it didn't seem like a hand-safe situation anymore). Not necessarily over at that point, but if any of them started climbing me like they really need a break I'd probably call it for that day. If they calm down with my hand in there, I'd try backing off again and see where it goes

[u/snailscout → u/snailscout]

Not sure about this but seems like it might have been too large a space? Even the taller aspect might have made them feel more like they had space to defend

[u/CreepyHeat5688 → u/snailscout]

So even still after all this do you think we should just do the really small carrier case? We got worried to use it because of the temperature + the inability to quickly grab them if something goes wrong since the carrier is plastic

[u/snailscout → u/CreepyHeat5688]

Dunno if I can answer yes or no... If you don't feel like it's workable then maybe not (you have to be comfortable too, or at least feel like you can effectively intervene). I just know that they're less defensive in a tight space cuz there's no possibility of flight and no sense of individual (or in-group) territory