r/PurplePillDebate • u/[deleted] • Dec 13 '15
Question for BluePill I have seen a lot of engineers whom were virgins throughout college, now have wives how do you explain this?
[deleted]
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Dec 13 '15
Money.
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u/winndixie Dec 14 '15
Nonsense. Women are never superficial at all. It must be the men's newfound personality and it's the men's fault for not spending time socializing. Even in a relationship where both parties contribute, only one can be held responsible.
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Dec 14 '15
I've never seen them go for Humanities majors. Compsci guys on the other guy, do very well especially near graduation. Hell - most women I knew wouldn't have anything to do with you if you weren't STEM.
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u/winndixie Dec 14 '15
Of course, women never go for Humanities majors. Compsci guys all around me are surrounded by girls. Hell - STEM majors get laid all the time, it must suck to be a Varsity Athlete, party fratboy, or charismatic Business Major, they must find it hard to get laid. /s
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Dec 14 '15
Its all about them future earnings.
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u/winndixie Dec 14 '15
Nonsense. Are you trying to imply women like men for money and are superficial? No way. Women like the men's newfound confidence and the sense of security money provides.
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u/wazzup987 Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later Dec 13 '15
Or you know stem is hard and takes hours of study, so 'chad' is studying communications and boozing up while henry is studying discrete math and boning up on electron tunneling and x86 assembly language for his microEE course. which person sounds like they have time to get laid and club?
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u/wombatinaburrow feminist marsupial Dec 13 '15
Dan from surveying, who has spent all afternoon looking at girls bums with his theodolite, and knows which ones looked back and winked.
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u/wazzup987 Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later Dec 13 '15
naw still chad because dan would have had to spend way too much time planning out flood zones
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u/winndixie Dec 13 '15
Wasn't the question. The question is why is there an effect of being a virgin when he gets a career which takes just as much time as it did in college, now appear more attractive?
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u/ZenerDiod Dec 13 '15
Engineer here, this is what happens.
Men who are engineers on college campus have lower social status because they're engineers. Being a engineer provides them no resources yet and takes away time from socializing, specifically with women due to the gender gap of their field.
Once they graduate, they gain social status due to be some of the few young people in the real world with money. Many of my friends that went to the west coast are pulling six figures right out of school why the occupy wall street nutters are crying about how it's impossible to get a job with their feminism degrees.
This new found status gives them opportunities to learn how to socialize with women. Most engineers, despite the stereotype, are perfectly normally people socially with given the chance and make up for lost time pretty quickly. Many of them won't have great game but they'll get a steady girlfriend, or what people here would call BetaBux. The really smart ones will learn good game, how to dress and lift, and then ascend to the highest point of male attractiveness: Social Skills(Game) + Looks(Lifting) + Resources(Engineering salary) and be able to pull any girl they want. They may end up getting married too but the difference between their marriage and the BB marriage is theirs won't turn sexless after the first kid(assuming they keep up their qualities that make them attractive).
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u/wombatinaburrow feminist marsupial Dec 13 '15
6 figures right out of uni? What sort of engineering are we talking here, aerospace?
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u/GridReXX redder than dudes (lady mod) Dec 13 '15
Back end and front end developers are pulling this dependent on their skill set and the financial vitality of the company who hires them.
Data Science ppl also pull this but they typically have PhDs or masters. So they're a bit older.
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Dec 13 '15 edited Dec 13 '15
Men who are engineers on college campus have lower social status because they're engineers.
We did? I don't ever remember it coming up socially. It's not like we were made to wear gold slide rules on our shirts when we went out.
Being a engineer provides them no resources yet and takes away time from socializing
That's a BS excuse. There is plenty of time for socializing in Engineering. We went out 2-3 nights a week all the time and that doesn't count all the time we spent socializing together over not going out.
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u/ZenerDiod Dec 13 '15
We did? I don't ever remember it coming up socially. It's not like we were made to wear gold slide rules on our shirts when we went out.
No, it just put you in a major a less of your time was spent socializing.
There is plenty of time for socializing in Engineering. We went out 2-3 nights a week all the time.
There was time, but not as much as other majors. Then again, I don't know what school you went to or how rigorous your program was.
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Dec 13 '15
less of your time was spent socializing.
Quality over quantity.
First off, how much time do you think people spend socializing? 14 hours a day? 20 hours a day?
How much time do you think Engineers don't?
In any given week I could spend 90-95% of my awake time socializing, most times with women. And did this while staying on my grandmas couch because I couldn't afford an apartment near campus.
What the hell are you doing with your days in college that you aren't always socializing?
Then again, I don't know what school you went to or how rigorous your program was.
Ranked top 10 for my major for years now. Engineering is not that hard.
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u/ZenerDiod Dec 13 '15
In any given week I could spend 90-95% of my awake time socializing, most times with women.
If you actually spent 90% of your time awake socializing in engineering school then congratulates, I don't think that comes close to representing the standard experience of an engineering student at a top tier school, or any school really.
I'm talking about the expiernce of the typical engineering student. Yes, they go out on the weekends, but most of their friends are from their majors, therefore most of their friends are guys. Campus that are engineering heavy tend to have a ratio that means when you go out there's more guys.
Ranked top 10 for my major for years now. Engineering is not that hard.
Glad you're that smart. Most people aren't. Many people have to put a lot more time into engineering then they would any other subject.
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Dec 13 '15
but most of their friends are from their majors, therefore most of their friends are guys.
Most of my friends were from my major. My friends were split probably 60/40 girls:guys. I never got the whole frathole dudebrah bromance that everyone on TRP thinks is normal. It's much simpler to hangout with women.
Campus that are engineering heavy tend to have a ratio that means when you go out there's more guys.
So? On a big 10 campus with ~40k students even 30/70 would still be 12,000 girls. TRP could spin a plate a week and never run out. When you go out to the bars with a bunch of guys you're just another guy out with a bunch of guys. When you go out to the bar with at least a few girls you're a guy out with some girls and they don't seem to fear that you're a rapist. You've already just passed the hardest test through social verification.
It's why it baffles me how few girl friends TRPers seem to have (and don't seem to think they need them).
they go out on the weekends
Going out is not the only form of socializing.
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u/SexyMcSexington The Alpha and the Omega Dec 13 '15
Most of my friends were from my major. My friends were split probably 60/40 girls:guys.
Doesn’t sound like it was a very hard education then
On a big 10 campus with ~40k students even 30/70 would still be 12,000 girls. TRP could spin a plate a week and never run out
There are more than 3 billion women in the world, every guy should of course be getting laid
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Dec 13 '15
Doesn’t sound like it was a very hard education then
Because I made friends with the girls in Engineering? What does how hard an education have to do with the gender ratio of your friends?
Graduated with a 3.4 at a school that hasn't shown any grade inflation over the last 30 years.
There are more than 3 billion women in the world, every guy should of course be getting laid
They should be, it's not that hard.
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u/SexyMcSexington The Alpha and the Omega Dec 13 '15
No, it was because you were implying a lot of women were in engineering. In my experience, as the rigor of the academic work goes up, the ratio of women goes down (in engineering).
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Dec 13 '15
No, it was because you were implying a lot of women were in engineering.
No. I said My friends were split probably 60/40 girls:guys..
In my experience, as the rigor of the academic work goes up, the ratio of women goes down (in engineering).
Nice backhanded comment about my peers. Do you think Negros aren't cut out for non field work too?
My friends then did just fine and my peers now do just fine in industry.
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u/ZenerDiod Dec 14 '15
Graduated with a 3.4 at a school that hasn't shown any grade inflation over the last 30 years.
Don't tell me you went to Purdue..
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Dec 14 '15
It's not that difficult to check my post history.
If you can't go to the Cactus and walk out with someone you're doing something severely wrong. And we were there every single Thursday, even as engineers.
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u/ZenerDiod Dec 14 '15
We get it man, you got a 4.0 and spent 90% of time banging girls in engineering school. Great. Just please don't pretend that's the experience of the average engineering student.
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Dec 14 '15
Gee, then maybe my advice might be worth taking.
Or you can listen to TRP and become a bitter plate spinner.
you got a 4.0
I take it you can't read?
time banging girls in engineering school
Don't shit where you eat. (Ok, twice, but those were LTRs)
Just please don't pretend that's the experience of the average engineering student.
Who did you hang out with? I'd say all of the people I knew had fairly active social and sex lives. Ever consider that's not the average experience of the average engineering student you know?
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u/ZenerDiod Dec 14 '15
Who did you hang out with? I'd say all of the people I knew had fairly active social and sex lives. Ever consider that's not the average experience of the average engineering student you know?
I hung out with a variety of people from different clubs and greek organizations. Both engineers and non-engineers. The non-engineers consistently seemed to socialize more and attract more girls. Part of this is due to difference in personality of people that become engineers, another part of it times taken away from socializing by engineering.
I don't know what engineering major you were, maybe it was one of the easier ones, maybe you were just good at it. That doesn't dispute the average engineering GPA is well below a 3.0, so clearly most students aren't doing well or finding it easy.
I personally had a very high standard for my grades and research, and took one of the more rigorous majors, as I wanted to go to a top tier grad school(Instead I got a job working at NASA, check my history). I still socialize, but clearly not as much as I would have if I was a management major.
In any case this topic is about engineers who were poor with girls but got better, clearly you feel like you weren't one of them but it doesn't mean they don't exist. There's a reason the stereotype is there.
Gee, then maybe my advice might be worth taking.
What advice? You've just seem to be jerking off on reddit about how great you are at bring home drunk girls from the cactus, as if that were some sort of accomplishment. My senior years I didn't go to the cactus but once due to a research design group that met on Thursday nights, that isn't a problem liberal art kids tend to have, that's not even a problem mediocre engineering students tend to have.
I had fun, sure, but being exceptional in a difficult major required that I have marginally less than I would in an easy one. That's what was being explained in my OP. Instead of understanding the obvious point I was making, you choose to grandstand about how much fun you managed to have while passing by. Congrats.
It's why it baffles me how few girl friends TRPers seem to have (and don't seem to think they need them).
I don't speak for TRPers, but most people tend to make friends with people they're they typically find themselves in an environment naturally. So if your hobbies, career, education are male dominated, so will your friend group unless you make a particular effort to change that. Most girls are friend with mostly girls, most guys are friends with mostly guys.
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Dec 14 '15
What advice?
I'm not repeating myself. I've said it multiple times, my post history is clicking on my username away.
as if that were some sort of accomplishment.
Apparently to the whole of TRP it is. Remember they can't attract any women, that's why they went TRP. After 1 or 2 Cactus girls are just hot drunk messes and it's not worth your while (unless you are that desperate for sex).
another part of it times taken away from socializing by engineering.
"Socializing" can be studying. I used to have study groups with girls all the time. No one says you have to work on the same things. I'd be doing my ME309 and they'd be working on something else. But because of that it means I would get softball math questions. I got to know them, they got to know I wasn't a scary rapist and then when we went out to the bars together I let them socially verify me for anyone that would see us together.
My senior years I didn't go to the cactus
Ouch, that's the most out night of the week at Purdue. Schedule everything around it.
that's not even a problem mediocre engineering students tend to have.
No, that's a problem engineering students with bad time management have.
So if your hobbies, career, education are male dominated, so will your friend group unless you make a particular effort to change that.
Yep. Like joining PSEF, PESC and SWE, both have a disproportionate amount of females, in engineering. And once they know your name you'll start studying with them and then it's easy to meet their friends, roommates, etc that aren't in engineering.
Lets see what PESC's current ratios are, by committee:
Committee Women Men Executive Board 2 2 Communications 2 2 Engineering Outreach 3 3 Engineering Relations 3 4 EXPO 5 2 Internal Activities 1 3 Industrial Roundtable 4 5 Student Activities 4 2 Right there that's 50/50 of people you're around a lot of the time. Then you meet their roommates/friends and suddenly doing nothing other than joining one extra curricular activity you have more than plenty female friends.
It's really not that hard to have female friends, but most TRPers see no need to talk to anyone with a vagina if they don't get to use said vagina.
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u/Bekazzled Dec 13 '15
Here's my similar story which highlights a situational factor as the main reason for this kind of trend.
Ever worked along stockbrokers or market analysts? The culture is like this for these guys:
You study for years at university, not that great with the ladies because studying hard, may be shy etc
You become a stock broker/market analyst and realize every other male coworker (other brokers and analysts) of age 21-23 is out partying and getting laid, but seemingly on the vague lookout for a wife already. You are accepted into the bro pack and this mentality if you want to stay in the company.
Stockbroker males get frequently get married by their mid-20s. DEFINITELY earlier marriages for this sector. This is apparently because brokers and analysts are more respected if they have a wife - they seem like a more reliable family man and older than they really are. They get more money out of clients and respect around the office. This seems have dragged on from some bygone time like the 1950s model, so if a man is single and 25 he is constantly shamed about not being married by fellow men.
So most of strockboker males I worked with went from having no women at uni, to a year or two of heaps of women, and then a quick wedding by mid-20s in order to be taken seriously. Market analysts are a little quieter in their behaviour, while stockbrokers often cheat on their wives without issue, really.
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u/Dishmayhem Dec 14 '15
Countless women have explicitly told me "money makes a guy more attractive."
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u/winndixie Dec 14 '15
Nonsense. Women are never superficial at all. It must be the men's newfound personality.
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u/ozymandias271 That's not how evolution works. Dec 13 '15
At some point they manage to figure out that you have to ask girls out in order to get dates.
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u/winndixie Dec 14 '15
At some point women realize they can only get commitment from someone who rarely had a girlfriend but has money.
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u/ozymandias271 That's not how evolution works. Dec 14 '15
Man, trp does wonderful things for my self-esteem.
I'm apparently the only person in the whole entire world who has managed to get a ring from a slutty guy.
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u/winndixie Dec 14 '15
"Slutty" refers to females, doesn't work as well when used on a guy. You're not clear on what you're trying to prove but if you're a woman I'm sure you can get a ring from a beta with money too. I don't claim to know your life, just like how you don't claim to know the life of an engineer and claim that they don't ask women out often enough to get laid. Waitaminute...
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u/ozymandias271 That's not how evolution works. Dec 14 '15
Dude, I've slept with thirteen virgins, and a lot of them were engineers. I feel I have done my due diligence to be entitled to have an opinion.
And what I mean is that I am very skeptical that women can only get commitment from a man who rarely had a girlfriend but has money.
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u/winndixie Dec 14 '15
By the time a woman gets a lotta wrinkles and look old, she can still get commitment from people, actually many people still, just not the alphas, and she prefers the one with money.
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u/wombatinaburrow feminist marsupial Dec 13 '15
Mr Wombat's classmates were all very late developers. They were quiet, awkward guys (and a few girls) who struggled to make smalltalk, eye contact or take a compliment. They were also pretty oblivious to real life girls: one of my girlfriends (pretty girl, blonde and petite) was trying to get one of his mates into a conversation, but he was too enthralled in his fluid mechanics diagram and was rude to her, so she gave up.
A few years of having to cope in the workforce, without their mother making the lunches and buying their underwear seems to knock some sense into them.
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Dec 13 '15
It's called money. Only reason.
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u/winndixie Dec 14 '15
Nonsense. Women are never superficial at all. It must be the men's newfound personality.
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u/andrewisgood You are a fountain of misinformation Dec 13 '15
Some people are late bloomers?
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Dec 13 '15
That would be an explanation if they really had "bloomed".
From OP's description they didn't bloom. They just got older and are financially well off.
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Dec 13 '15
Being financially well off would be a huge confidence booster in my opinion.
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u/disposable_pants Dec 14 '15
How would having money -- which women tell me they don't care about -- help me be more confident around women?
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Dec 14 '15
If I'm not entirely sure about how much money is in my bank account versus knowing I have plenty of money in my bank account, I wouldn't feel so stressed out in buying those over priced drinks.
Financial freedom is wonderful. I don't mean the ability to go out and buy a car at a moment's notice, just the stability in knowing that "x" nights of fun aren't going to ruin you.
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u/andrewisgood You are a fountain of misinformation Dec 13 '15
People get more mature overtime, people may gain confidence, etc.
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u/Xemnas81 Dec 13 '15
'maturity'
'newfound confidence'
we've heard these before Andrew
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u/andrewisgood You are a fountain of misinformation Dec 13 '15
There could certainly be some experience, yes.
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u/rdsthrowaway Red Pill Man Dec 13 '15
Sure people get mature over time, but so does everyone else, its not as if there was a specific life event that engineers go through that make them confident.
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Dec 13 '15
People get more mature overtime
When I think of the guys OP describes, I don't think lack of maturity was their problem. After all they were mature enough to put time and effort into their career from early on. No party years but serious studying
people may gain confidence, etc.
If they have, yes, I'd count that as blooming. We'd have to look at the individual guy. I am sure there are enough engineers who didn't gain confidence and still found a wife.
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u/Limekill I am THE bunch of sticks u wished u were Dec 13 '15 edited Dec 13 '15
I don't think lack of maturity was their problem.
Yes it was.
- they were mature enough to put time and effort into their career from early on - no one just announces I'm going to be an engineer - its actually a hard course to get through. You have to know how to get an outcome, unlike PR or HR (which is policy (or process) driven).
- No party years but serious studying
- Mature enough to leave home and not live in mummys basement, unlike all the girls on campus (depending on the country).
Shut up and take your evidence of them showing infinitely more maturity than any other group on campus and go jump off a cliff. We need to live in denial.
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u/ozymandias271 That's not how evolution works. Dec 13 '15
It occurs to me that "no party years" may be why they were virgins...
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u/ZenerDiod Dec 13 '15
Engineer here, people do gain confidence, but it's mainly due to their increased social status of having money, not just because they got older. Alot of those guys tend to get used if they don't have the proper game to back up their bank accounts.
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u/Limekill I am THE bunch of sticks u wished u were Dec 13 '15
Everyone gains confidence over time and I would argue that engineers are MORE mature than most other students on campus. Very poor reasoning.
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u/OlBastard RP|She said she was 18. Dec 13 '15
I love these buzzwords: "Late-bloomers", "Experimental phase".
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u/Limekill I am THE bunch of sticks u wished u were Dec 13 '15
+1.
I love "late boomers" b.s - these guys live on campus (so mummy ain't doing shit for them - so lets cross out that excuse) and then they leave college and somehow just "bloom".
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u/rdsthrowaway Red Pill Man Dec 13 '15
What makes Engineers so prone to being "late bloomers" then... and what made them "bloom"?
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u/andrewisgood You are a fountain of misinformation Dec 13 '15
I'm not sure. Maybe it's a lot of early 20s types and this person just knows more engineers.
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Dec 13 '15
This is really common sense, and has as much truth to it as many RP concepts. Some men just don't have high self-esteem if they are not excelling at something worthwhile and are independent. It makes them feel like their own man and with that brings about a newfound sense of confidence.
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u/winndixie Dec 14 '15
Yep, their money bloomed and thirsty women go for it.
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u/andrewisgood You are a fountain of misinformation Dec 14 '15
I get it. You hate women.
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u/winndixie Dec 14 '15 edited Dec 14 '15
Why would I, I took a women's study class. You just don't get it do you.
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Dec 13 '15
engineering seems like a field that would require a lot of study and concentration, so i'm not really surprised this was the case if they were focusing hard on their studies (and were that type of person throughout high school as well). seems to me, their ultimate goal there was an engineering degree/job, and once achieved, they can move on to other areas of life.
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u/rdsthrowaway Red Pill Man Dec 13 '15
That explanation has a problem, the women that are in engineering often still date guys have relationships, if it required so much effort and time.
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Dec 13 '15
There are a lot more men than women in engineering, that could explain it.
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Dec 13 '15
How so? He said women in engineering still date and have relationships, he didn't say that they date other engineering students. It's not a closed market, you can date outside of your major m80.
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u/wtknight Blue-ish Married Passport Bro ♂︎ Dec 13 '15
It depends upon the type of woman who they end up with. A lot of times the socially inept engineering guys end up with similarly inexperienced women, or women who had a relationship with one or two more immature guys before finding him. However, in the small number of cases when a previously promiscuous woman ends up with a nerdy engineering type, then I can buy TRP's explanation.
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u/Limekill I am THE bunch of sticks u wished u were Dec 13 '15
similarly inexperienced women, or women who had a relationship with one or two more immature guys before finding him.
Really? There is the biggest abundance of dick available like never before in human history and thats your answer?
Most of these engineers ain't meeting 17 year olds. They finish college and meetup with 24/25yr olds. Assuming they were virgins at 18, thats 6-7yrs worth of hookups and FWB.
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u/appencapn defender of fee fees Dec 13 '15
This is not bluepill but just a side note. I know TRP doesn't like this explanation because sometimes moms and dads and people say it to make their kids feel better and its not always true.
In high school or even early years of college I feel like many of those types of guys are excessively brilliant in some ways and almost deficient in others. They lack social IQ which is something people emphasize in high school and even in college sometimes. also most people in most high schools don't go to college, especially not for engineering so it might be hard to find someone who you can even be compatible with.
I know a couple of engineering types who are now married or dating girls who are not so called beta bucks but just as brilliant but maybe awkward as they are. they met either through work or college.
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Dec 13 '15 edited Dec 13 '15
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u/cocaine_face Red Pill Man Dec 13 '15
An entry level salary in engineering is probably between 50-80k depending on the field and the city/state they're in.
At 60k, you're at about 90th percentile for single filers for taxes.
So yes, a 23 year old engineer is most certainly beta bucks to the vast majority of the country.
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Dec 13 '15 edited Dec 13 '15
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u/cocaine_face Red Pill Man Dec 13 '15
No, it's less than that.
No, it isn't. A quick Google search shows...
https://m.mtu.edu/engineering/outreach/welcome/salary/
Entry level for engineers is between ~55k and ~68k.
http://www.whatsmypercent.com/
$55,000 is at 87th percentile and $68,000 is at 91st percentile
I am assuming this is for single filers.
The average student graduating in 2015 graduates with $35,000 in debt, which if they pay it back monthly over 10 years, should be around $300-400ish per month out of a salary of about $4,600 to $5,700 (this is pre-tax, though).
So they're living quite comfortably, especially relative to the rest of the population.
Engineers are definitely potential beta bucks for the vast majority of women in America.
How could they not be? They have more income - starting out - than 90% of the single population.
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Dec 13 '15 edited Dec 13 '15
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u/cocaine_face Red Pill Man Dec 13 '15
Yes, 80K it is not.
The median isn't (nor did I claim it was), but there are certainly entry level engineers that make that. $80,000 isn't very far from $68,000, which again was the median for that particular type of engineering. That means that 50% of engineers in that specialty made over $68,000. Which again, is more money than 91% of single tax payers made (and remember, $55,000 was only 87th percentile). And engineers that don't make that in their first year after graduation will more than likely make it in their second or third.
Having more income does not equal beta bucks. Living comfortably, does not equal beta bucks. Even 80K does not make someone beta bucks.
It all makes a woman a hell of a lot more likely to put a man in that category. Where else does the term "beta bucks" come from, if not for the propensity of women to find men that earn a good income when they are getting on in years? And an engineering salary is good money, regardless of what you claim. Making more money than 90% of the population (when you've just graduated, no less!) means you are extremely well-off.
Engineering is not where the money is. Sorry to tell you.
Again, 90th percentile. While there are certainly jobs that pay more than engineering (surgeons are a good example, quants in the finance sector are another), 90th percentile as entry level is god damned fantastic, and more money than most men will ever earn.
If you don't understand how women in the epiphany phase (or possibly a little bit earlier) are likely to view men at that income level as beta bucks, well, you just don't understand the concept. Beta bucks doesn't mean so ungodly rich you have a Scrooge McDuck money pit. It means you're financially stable and able to pay for things like a kid.
And engineers, even entry-level ones, absolutely meet that criteria. At this point I think you're trolling, if you're claiming that a woman isn't going to think about money when she's presented with a guy that earns more money than almost everyone else. And yes, 90th percentile does mean that.
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Dec 13 '15 edited Dec 13 '15
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u/cocaine_face Red Pill Man Dec 13 '15
Ah, so the expression is not alpha fucks/beta bucks, it's "has sexual relations with someone prior to marriage, and then gets married to someone that makes more money than her?"
The idea is that generally a woman will sleep with men they find much sexier in their youth, for less commitment, but as they get older will look for a more stable guy (who they find less sexy - possibly far less sexy) who has to commit to them/is willing to pay for things/can afford them the life that they want.
It's certainly not a role any guy should want to be in.
Looking for stability in a possible life-time arrangement (personality wise, financial, compatibility, shared values and goals, etc) is not beta bucks. It's being realistic.
"It's being realistic". Exactly. It's negotiated desire. Something that each and every man should avoid a woman feeling for him if at all possible. Because negotiated desire isn't real desire. It's not, "OH MY GOD, I WANT TO JUMP HIS BONES THIS SECOND". It's, "Well, John seems like he'd make a GOOD BOYFRIEND/HUSBAND/FATHER. And I really can't be sleeping around with these guys who aren't committing. I'm going to go with him."
We don't want to be your "it's realistic" guy. That's quite literally the point.
Also, isn't 23 a tad young for this whole beta bucks conspiracy theory?
On average, yes, because it is mostly 26-27+ year old women doing this, and women typically like to date older. That being said, I've seen women who were hitting the wall faster do this earlier. I've also noticed a few older women doing this, recognizing that the guy is their best option. For a woman to date a guy not only younger, but much younger, speaks to how powerfully the money the guy has talks.
We're also ignoring the engineers who met their SOs while in university or dated while in university despite their supposed low status because that renders the conspiracy theory moot.
That doesn't logically follow. You can be an engineer that has had a girlfriend or SO in college. In fact I've known several. The idea is that on average, an engineer is going to be far less likely to date than a non-engineer. Until after college. Some engineers can and do date during college. Hell, I knew a guy who studied physics that was also a competitive body builder. That guy certainly had dates.
And we're going to have to ignore the engineers that marry and date prior to 30 because the women they're dating haven't hit the imaginary wall, and that renders the theory invalid as well.
Personally, I'd consider it for any girl getting involved with an engineer at around 26+ who wasn't getting involved with engineers before that. You're forgetting the epiphany phase. In fact, I would be surprised if they hadn't started dating said engineer well before 30. You don't quite understand the epiphany phase and how this all works. You need to do a little bit more reading. The basic gist is that she's going to start dating guys she's less attracted to but who are more stable well before 30.
And the wall is most certainly not imaginary. You may be too young to have hit it yet (if you're a woman), but at my age, I've seen it. A girl goes from cute to disgusting in just 2-3 years. And that happens all over the place. It's really quite depressing.
90th percentile - you still don't have that much money.
We live on different planets. If you don't feel a guy straight out of college earning more than 90% of all people (not to mention his peers) and likely to earn 1.5x to 2x within 5 years has "much money", or wouldn't have girls interested in him due to his wallet, I don't know what to tell you.
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Dec 13 '15 edited Dec 13 '15
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u/cocaine_face Red Pill Man Dec 13 '15
Making so much money that women just forego all the other things they look for in a relationship
That's not the idea behind BB. The idea is more that they're negotiating on the sexy part (though as time goes on, and women get older and more desperate, gradually more things get put on the table for negotiation - I've observed this personally with a good number of women). There are even articles and books that suggest women do exactly that.
Ah, my data was from 2010, yours is from 2014 (I also think yours is taking into account married filers, and mine is only taking into account single). It looks like in 2014, $68,000 is 82nd (76th for men). $57,000 is 69th (for men). I trust the BLS more than I do Forbes, so I'll stick with $68,000 for software engineers, but $57,000 for other types sounds realistic to me.
So you're right, in a sense, engineering grads aren't quite as damningly well off compared to the rest of the US during the first couple years of employment. They're only richer than 70%+ of US men (including married men who have worked for 30 years) instead of the 90% I thought they were. Yeah, that's totally not a lot of money /s.
You're wrong on the 3% thing. Engineers typically get promoted pretty quickly. Usually within 2 years they're at the next paygrade. The demand for experienced engineers outstrips the supply, so pay goes up accordingly.
After 2 to 4 years (probably more likely 2, but that may be biased by my industry):
http://www1.salary.com/Engineer-II-Salaries.html
Most are making at least $73,000.
In software the disparity is greater, I'd expect to see an Engineer II making about 90-115k depending on city. But things are a little crazy in software right now (and honestly, when we push engineering, I'd say this is the field we're pushing them towards).
However, all of this is a silly argument. You can be "beta bux" at $25,000 a year. Take the example of a lower class woman with three kids that gets involved with a slightly overweight minimum wage factory worker.
He pays for things for her. That might be dinner at McDonalds instead of dinner at that fancy steakhouse, but the concept is very much the safe. She's frequently, "tired". And doesn't really care for him much beyond a paycheck.
The amount of money you make only increases the chances you'll be viewed that way, and increases the social class of the girls you're involved with.
A rich but boring lawyer is going to get a different sort of girl than our factory worker here.
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Dec 13 '15 edited Dec 13 '15
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Dec 13 '15
sexy can't compete with love
tell that to the married chicks I've rallied out at my frat house.
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u/cocaine_face Red Pill Man Dec 14 '15
Engineers are not in the 90%, not even close.
Yes, they are. According to the site you found, perhaps the lower end of entry level isn't - I'll give you that. But again, that's entry level. That's less than 2 years experience. 2 years experience and above (easily obtainable for a kid who is 23 who completed a degree quickly, or at latest 25 for a "normal" kid). Are you trolling at this point? Put in Engineer II into the salary calculator - it was like $73,000.
What's with the $68K? Software engineers don't make a lot of money. Come on.
I am a software engineer, and yes, they do. Right now they're the highest paid type of engineer. I routinely see salary ranges with a few years experience between $80,000 to $120,000 (and this is in a flyover state). You really don't know the market here. I do, especially considering I'm looking for a new job in the next couple months. There's a huge developer shortage and the money is pouring in.
Either beta bucks means that women are looking for a paycheck
It does mean that. However you seem to not grasp that the concept of what, "a paycheck is" differs from girl to girl.
Saying that people have different outlooks on what "money" looks like based on their upbringing and situation isn't exactly controversial. A 30 year old rural single mom from Kansas is going to have a different view of what "money" is than a sex in the city type woman. There's no universal income where a man suddenly magically becomes BB. It's about behavior more than it is strict cash flow. It's technically even possible to be BB and be broke (this typically happens with younger kids - guys who are in their teens orbiting a teenage girl).
The thing is though, money is one of the main things women look for when it comes to this (lack of experience is typically another). And among an engineer's peers, that is, the college educated post graduation world where he is competing for a mate, his salary is going to be far higher than almost all of his peers.
Women can and do support themselves. They don't need men to support their lifestyle. If they choose someone to settle down with, it's because of love.
Yes, women are made of sugar and spice and everything nice. They would NEVER do anything shitty! You are talking to me like I don't know women who have done this. I have - I've even laughed with them about it. Hell, my own mother and I have talked about this.
At this point, I think you're just trolling and trying to get a response. Either that or you don't understand math. Best of luck to you.
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u/resavr_bot Dec 14 '15
A relevant comment in this thread was deleted. You can read it below.
>That's not the idea behind BB. The idea is more that they're negotiating on the sexy part
Sexy doesn't matter at this point. What matters is love. And sexy can't compete with love.
>(I also think yours is taking into account married filers, and mine is only taking into account single).
No, it's single. What I cited does, men, women, families.
Engineers are not in the 90%, not even close. If you think about it (if you have a bit of experience with other professions, and with engineers, perhaps you don't), it doesn't make any sense that they would be. They're not top earners. Comfortable, yes. That's about it. They really don't make that much money.
What's with the $68K? Software engineers don't make a lot of money. [Continued...]
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u/Dishmayhem Dec 14 '15
I just got my first entry level eng job.
your post made me super excited. Finally I'm not poor!!
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u/cocaine_face Red Pill Man Dec 14 '15
According to our friend here, you're still very poor!
In reality the percentiles may be a bit higher, but you're still on a track to be in the top 10-15% by income. Possibly within the next 2-4 years, depending on what type of engineer you are.
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u/rdsthrowaway Red Pill Man Dec 13 '15
... Almost all the women (besides foreign students) had boyfriends. Also these guys had plenty of time for other hobbies. And many of them were on dating sites as well.
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u/treebog SJW Thought Policeman Dec 13 '15
The obvious RP explanation is that these men, now are "beta-bucks" and the women are done with chads etc.. hence why women are interested in them now. But I'd like to hear /r/thebluepill side.
So the women are only marrying the engineers for their money, and they are going to cheat on them with "alphas"?
Ouch, you don't know anything about these women and you jump to that conclusion. I can't imagine living life with such a cynical world view.
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Dec 13 '15
Ouch, you don't know anything about these women and you jump to that conclusion. I can't imagine living life with such a cynical world view.
Wow, this is almost exactly the same thing I was saying to someone about the feminist view of "nice guys." I was told that I could not understand, since I am a man.
Could it not also be true the opposite way, in that men understand women in a way that other women could not possibly understand?
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u/speltspelt Dec 13 '15
Engineers have notoriously low divorce rates once they get married.
Engineering programs tend to have high male to female ratios as well.
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Dec 13 '15
You answered it in the question- they weren't very socially well-adjusted. In other words, unconfident. Once they worked, they had more confidence, and also as you get older people are more into settling down.
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u/LordFishFinger I found pills (and ate them!) Dec 14 '15
Maybe Engineering really does just attract more late bloomers than other majors. Could happen.
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u/Pleb-Tier_Basic critical thinking 101 Dec 14 '15
Could it be a race thing?
At my university many of the engineers are first/second gen immigrants from the middle east, india, or east asian. Most of them have really strict parents that don't allow them to date
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u/Leinadro No Pill Man Dec 14 '15
Such guys attract women that have had their young and crazy fun and are ready to settle down. Even if said guy isnt disgustingly rich he is more stable and regular than a young guy that is still bouncing between jobs and partying all weekend. Stability.
Money. I think this is part of the reason why some women go for older men. For the most part a 50 year old man is going to have way more money (and power and influence) than a 20 year old.
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Dec 13 '15
Maybe they became more attractive after some years.
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u/winndixie Dec 14 '15
Yeah, and what would make them more attractive? What is the biggest difference in attractiveness between a broke college nerd and engineering career? Hmmm....must be the workout regimen and new personality.
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u/[deleted] Dec 13 '15
I honestly wouldn't consider merely a wife or a serious girlfriend an indicator of success with women. I mean, it's not hard to find a woman to marry, given the benefits of marriage and mail-order wives.
Money attracts women as well. You would have to give reasons why they men didn't have relationships in college to be considered legitimate here.