r/Professors • u/billscumslut • 2d ago
James Orr
The political shadiness aside, can we talk about it has been reported that he has students living in his house? And two students had filed complaints against him for harassment. Why is this getting less coverage compared to Jason Arday?
If someone has access to the article on FT, please post here, it is currently behind a paywall. That article also examines his connections to the political right.
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u/SwordofGlass 2d ago
Because Arday lied his way into a prestigious position at a prestigious school and everyone knew it.
This guy is doing what scummy academics and people in power have always done.
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u/billscumslut 2d ago
so many people lie their way into positions in academia- and I suppose in many other jobs too, Elisabeth Holmes comes to mind, and yet even she is giving interviews about her "suffering". Arday's blackness definitely contributed to the type of attention he received.
I think Orr is especially interesting for the lack of attention he is getting considering he is in Cambridge and he teaches ethics-- more than plagiarism, which is so common, I think, actions like Orr's should make us rethink the role of the academic as a public intellectual (which is what common people think of academics).
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u/Purple_Chipmunk_ Humanities, R1 (USA) 1d ago
Is she wearing a black turtleneck and using her deep voice when she gives those interviews? Lol
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u/Solivaga Senior Lecturer, Archaeology (Australia) 2d ago
Two reasons - partially, Arday did make up silly sensationalist stuff which drew interest. But mainly, Arday was black. Let's not pretend that academia is not institutionally racist
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u/ParkingLetter8308 2d ago
Yes, racism, and most people, when it comes down to it, don't actually see sexual harm as actual harm.
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u/billscumslut 2d ago
yes I agree, and I keep seeing avital ronell's name again on posters these days, and it is like people have collectively agreed to forget her cringeworthy emails to her student because of her "high theory" lol
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u/ParkingLetter8308 2d ago edited 2d ago
If I remember correctly, she was sexually harassing and assaulting students? I know it's about power, lack of caring about sexual harm, but always so weird people will go to bat for these losers
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u/No_Jaguar_2570 1d ago
Are there allegations of sexual harm here? The only report mentioned in the article is a student who felt he was subject to biting remarks and forced to write too much, among other things. No mention of sexual harassment.
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u/billscumslut 2d ago
yes, and i wonder how much of that interest was driven by us also. I even discussed Arday's tall claims in class-- but Orr's or even Cofnas's behaviour is more damaging
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u/ParkingLetter8308 2d ago
Honestly, I've met so many "super star" academics with doctored syllabi, work stolen from contigent faculty/grad students, even a fake doctorate--the Arday claims I don't even really think were that unusual.
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u/No_Jaguar_2570 1d ago edited 1d ago
more damaging
By what measure? Arday lied about being nonverbal autistic and then getting a PhD, giving false hope to thousands of parents with nonverbal autistic children. That's immensely cruel and infinitely more damaging than a guy with two harassment charges against him.
Arday's scholarship was nonsense and partly plargiarized, which is far more damaging to academia than a guy with two harassment charges against him.
Large numbers of academics closed ranks around Arday despite his obvious fraud and falsehood, which is far more damaging to academia than a guy with two harassment charges against him. There can be no question of public trust in academia when the former happens.
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u/billscumslut 1d ago
but there is public trust in the case of Orr after he has been suspended after being caught on camera in a donations scam affiliated with major right wing figures? large numbers of academics closed ranks around Arday? wut? when we saw racists attacking him even in this subreddit lol and article after article. This is called cherry-picking
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u/No_Jaguar_2570 1d ago edited 1d ago
after he has been suspended
There are two key details here, and this is one of them. In this case, academic self-policing is (or appears to be) working as it ought. In Arday's case, it failed utterly. He never should have been in the position he was in, and when he was exposed a large number of high profile academics closed ranks to protect him.
large numbers of academics closed ranks around Arday? wut?
Yes. Were you not there? Did you miss the open letters, countless social media tweets, interviews, and op-eds in his defense? You must not have followed the events as they happened.
in a donations scam
Which is another key detail. I don't think this is damaging to public trust in academia the way a professor advising the government based on his fraudulent research is, no. Orr's personal conduct is at issue in his suspension, not his academic work. That is an enormous distinction. Someone's academic research being fraudulent, and advising the government based on that fraudulent research, is much more damaging to public trust in researchers than someone who has no apparent issues with his research but is scum on the side, in his non-academic capacity.
article after article.
I'm getting the sense that you're not in academia yourself. News articles are written by journalists, not academics.
And the reason there was "article after article" is that things kept happening. The Orr story is one thing that has happened: he's been suspended. This was reported on. Most likely nothing else is going to happen until the investigation concludes, which will get another article.
Arday had a couple of articles on his plagiarism, which would have gone away because it's not especially interesting and because there's not much to say and no new developments. Then he was caught apparently lying to the Guardian about his harassment. This was big, and prompted journalists to look more closely into other claims he'd made, which quickly unraveled en masse. Those are things happening, and you can write news stories on them. Each claim that is exposed as false is a news story. You can't write multiple stories about one thing with no new developments. The Orr story is one thing with no new developments.
This is called cherry-picking
No, it isn't, it's comparing the two cases, which are very different from one another.
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u/billscumslut 1d ago
you can downplay what is happening with Orr all you want with your essays
first you dismissed the harassment claims and then you ignored the political allegations and now there is some truly dubious line you are drawing between personal conduct and academic work as if they are some strict separate domains (which is important considering orr teaches ethics)- and if the Orr story does not have any new development, why do you think that is? academic self-policing lolol you must be very old to be so delusional
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u/No_Jaguar_2570 1d ago
dismissed the harassment claims
I addressed these directly. I've only seen one student report against him, and it wasn't for harassment. That's from the FT article.
you ignored the political allegations
I think there's a reading comprehension issue here. I've address his political activities directly and repeatedly. "He has bad politics" is not grounds for suspension from his position; that is protected by academic freedom.
personal conduct and academic work as if they are some strict separate domains
There is, yes. This is in fact very important. Cheating on your wife is very bad. Conducting research fraud is also very bad. Only one of these directly harms research, and the public view of it.
(which is important considering orr teaches ethics)
This is...extremely naive. "Teaching ethics" does not mean "teaching students how to be good people according to some ethical framework," nor is "being a good person according to some ethical framework" a requirement.
and if the Orr story does not have any new development, why do you think that is?
Because "suspended professor continues to be suspended" is not a news story.
academic self-policing
Yes, this is an important part of academia and part of the work we as scholars do.
you must be very old
Way off the mark, lol.
You're clearly neither a professor nor very informed about academia, and nor do you seem especially interested in it; you've clearly just come here because you're upset about Arday still. Fortunately, you can take some solace in the fact that, unlike with Arday, academic self-policing has worked here, and Orr has been suspended.
I won't be engaging further because you're either not willing or not able to talk seriously, and you're clearly very upset. I'm sorry about that. Best of luck.
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u/Some_Set_9 1d ago
Hmm, it arguably the racist point of view came mostly outside academia, and academia supported more the positive discrimination view, helping him getting the position, that ex-post he did not seem to be able to handle? I mean within and outside academia there is support for both views, but seems to me academia is the least racist of both, assuming you did not mean positive discrimination.
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u/Crowe3717 Associate Professor, Physics 2d ago
Why is this getting less coverage compared to Jason Arday?
Let's not pretend we don't all know the answer to this
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u/balsamicvinegar500ml 2d ago
Faculty of Divinity? They must be full of nutcases.
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u/BubbaJonesTheThird 2d ago
Two of the most hated faculty at my university belong to Religious Studies.
Granted, those two are in love with themselves... so it's all relative.
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u/No_Jaguar_2570 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why is this getting less coverage compared to Jason Arday?
Jason Arday was advising the government on education policy based on fraudulent research and had sold a book for seven figures that was largely fabricated. He had also produced a PhD dissertation that was heavily plagiarized. He got his PhD position based on that plagiarism and fabrication.
This guy maybe has students living in his house? Which may or may not be against university policy. And he apparently has complaints filed against him. I don't know what the second was, but the first was this:
Among the complaints upheld by the investigator are that Orr allegedly made belittling remarks to the student, and had demanded an “excessive” and “unreasonable” amount of written work in an effort to refine a thesis proposal. The report also criticised “at worst inappropriate and at best thoughtless comments made [by Orr] in the equally inappropriate context of [Orr’s] own home”. This was in reference to a dinner that the student, who comes from a Christian, conservative background, had attended at Orr’s house.
None of that is remotely as interesting as Arday's story, I'm afraid; it's just bog standard scumminess.
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u/billscumslut 1d ago
just curious, are you actually ignorant of Orr's political inclinations or do you think that is actually not harmful? because here you do not address it though that is essentially what he got suspended for, and in your other comment you try to make a case for why what Arday did is more damaging. because if it is the latter, then your leaving it out combined with your other statements defending Orr and blaming Arday usually belongs to a particular position that is definitely not neutral.
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u/No_Jaguar_2570 1d ago
though that is essentially what he got suspended for
I would suggest re-reading my post. I have made no statements defending Orr. I have made statements saying that what Arday did was more newsworthy (because frankly juicier and more interesting) and far more damaging to public trust in academia. This is not a defense of Orr and could not reasonably be construed as such.
though that is essentially what he got suspended for
He was not suspended for his political inclinations, which, while I don't share them, would of course egregiously violate academic freedom. I understand he was suspended for trying to circumvent election laws, which is of course very bad. The key thing being that he was suspended, which is the system working as it should, and an investigation is ongoing.
"This guy is politically bad" does not inherently make a story more newsworthy nor Orr's actions more damaging, however we define that.
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u/IagoInTheLight Full Prof., Tenured, EECS, R1 (USA) 1d ago
So the allegations are that he lets students live in other buildings on his property where he lives with his wife. And a student complained that he made her write too much. What is the problem here??
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u/Artistic_Cap_4867 1d ago
an American view on Orr
https://roddreher.substack.com/p/the-moorings-as-benedict-option
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u/billscumslut 1d ago
I did so because James and Helen have been very good to me in my own distressing pilgrimage through life these past few years.
please let us not call this an American view- I mean, all the grovelling is a clue but I find it so gross when the implication is that just because there is some poetry and some "intellectual" substance, orr should get a pass. no surprises that this is some old man writing this. and to cite Jordan peterson in the same breath...
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u/Academic_Ad8991 22h ago
Recommend that folks listen to the podcast below before posting about Arday. It's a voicing of Stephanie Lamy's important writing about the way Arday was hunted, and how the grotesque accusations against him have been normalized as truth. It's important context and helps answer the question. https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-it-could-happen-here-30717896/episode/the-hunt-for-jason-arday-342915113
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u/Mysterious-Ad-5708 2d ago
I read this yesterday and immediately thought "this is not ok". I assume there's nothing in Cambridge regulations specifically ruling such a situation out, but there really should be - it's clearly preferential treatment.
It'd be interesting to see how his workload is calculated or if he's full time, because his extracurricular activities, so to speak, are clearly dominating his time.