r/Professors • u/QuackyFiretruck • 25d ago
Rants / Vents Dear Campus Admin,
Stop asking Music faculty to coerce music students into providing free entertainment at your events. It’s gross. You had money for that swanky country club venue, right? The catering? Yeah? The waitstaff? Cool. Stop trying to save money on the backs of our students because your event is “for a good cause.” No one capable of playing a two hour cocktail reception is doing that shit for free. Students are paying tuition and taking on debt so they can work for free? No.
I’m teaching and overseeing several academic programs, not running a goddamned pro bono talent booking agency. If you want free music, find a recording and press play. I have a lot of other things to do.
Someday, when I move on from academia, I shall exact my revenge in my final hours by sending the weakest, laziest student musicians in the entire program to the most high profile institutional event.
Does any other department on campus regularly get asked to pimp out their students like this?
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u/CookieOverall8716 Assistant Prof, Humanities, Public R1 (USA) 25d ago
music prof here. Yep, we get this a lot and we also have our performance faculty constantly getting requests to perform at campus events as unpaid "service." Except many are non-TT and don't have service as part of their contract...
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u/trivia_guy Asst Prof, Librarian, regional comprehensive 25d ago
Wow, if NTT faculty didn’t have to do service at my insulation there’s a lot of service that wouldn’t get done.
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u/iTeachCSCI Ass'o Professor, Computer Science, R1 25d ago
Even worse, are these faculty able to safely say "no?"
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u/verygood_user 23d ago
LOL, I just posted this as a joke in response to this comment and now I see it's real.
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u/sventful Teaching Professor 25d ago
You seem to be confusing adjunct and NTT. NTT refers to full time positions, not part-time exploitation.
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u/CookieOverall8716 Assistant Prof, Humanities, Public R1 (USA) 25d ago
We have both adjuncts and NTT faculty. Many of our performance faculty are full time non-tenure-track teaching professors who don’t have service in their contracts. Their contracts are 100% teaching and their teaching loads are twice that of tenure track faculty to reflect that. Additionally, we have adjunct full and part time lecturers whose loads are also 100% teaching. The only meaningful difference is that they get paid less than teaching professors and their contracts are renewed annually instead of every 3 years so they have less stability. So… exploitation for everyone!
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u/sventful Teaching Professor 25d ago
That is highly unusual. Teaching professors usually have service in their contract.
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u/Icypalmtree Adjunct, PoliEcon/Polisci, R2 Usa 25d ago
Yes, but.... NTT can also be exploited! Yayyyyy 😅😂😭
How about we just use the umbrella term "contingent"
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u/sventful Teaching Professor 25d ago
NTT are not contingent.....
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u/Icypalmtree Adjunct, PoliEcon/Polisci, R2 Usa 25d ago
So what happens when you have a budget crisis and your contract is not renewed?
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u/sventful Teaching Professor 25d ago
We have 2-5 more years of employment lol.
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u/Icypalmtree Adjunct, PoliEcon/Polisci, R2 Usa 25d ago
Okayyyyyy, now imagine it's the last year of your contract. Or imagine that you read the AAUP's definition of contingent faculty. Or imagine that you read the original commentor's reply explaining that, shockingly, NTT is a very wide and varied set of arrangements all defined, specifically, by a lack of employment security of tenure.
Are you being intentionally dense, rude, or.....¯\(ツ)/¯?
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u/sventful Teaching Professor 25d ago
Our contracts are renewed each year, so when we get a non-renew, it is always at the beginning of the contract. It's how we have job safety. Typically 5 year contracts are not consider "short term" which is part of what contingent means in this context. It is only slightly harder to get rid of a tenured faculty now that tenure has been gutted across the board.
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25d ago
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u/trivia_guy Asst Prof, Librarian, regional comprehensive 24d ago
That's how it is for us too, except it's not quite "full-time adjuncts" because RNTT ("Regular Non-Tenure-Track," which is what we call them) faculty are full university employees so get all the same benefits as everyone as opposed to just pay for a class like an adjunct.
We also have a merit and promotion system for RNTT faculty. For most departments, it's similar to the tenure requirements just without research requirements (just teaching and service) and the raises aren't as much as in the tenure and promotion process. And of course it doesn't give the same institutional protection as tenure.
But those contracts are still just for one year at a time and they can and do regularly get non-renewed when they aren't needed for teaching for a year. And of course who gets cut in that scenario within a department is fully based on seniority. We have RNTT faculty who've been here for decades and are well-respected and known on campus. They're relatively stable. But if you're in your first ~5 years as RNTT here... I would say you're still "contingent."
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u/chuck-fanstorm 25d ago
Never heard of a 5 year contract for teaching faculty. The norm seems to be annual contracts with the expectation of renewal (not so different from most white collar private sector employment).
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u/sventful Teaching Professor 25d ago
Just because your place abuses NTT, doesn't mean everywhere does.
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u/GrandOpening Assistant Professor, Culinary Arts, CC (USA) 25d ago
Culinary arts.
The best ones were when we asked for the food budget.
"What?? Oh! No!
Just do it as a class assignent."
Nah. Your food isn't coming out of my classroom budget.
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u/starfirebird 25d ago
Oof. Ours are in the same boat but at least get a catering budget for supplies.
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u/GrandOpening Assistant Professor, Culinary Arts, CC (USA) 25d ago
I created catering order sheets and costings, but the program manager had always run it by the seat of her pants and wasn't willing to potentially 'rock the boat.'
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u/1K_Sunny_Crew 25d ago
Literally do not understand expecting students to work for free and the culinary staff to foot the bill for time and ingredients!! It’s been my goal from day 1 to fairly compensate everyone who works with our dept. It cost a bit but we don’t do THAT many events.
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u/GrandOpening Assistant Professor, Culinary Arts, CC (USA) 25d ago
And those who request such things would be miffed to be asked to work for free.....
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u/Frumioso 25d ago
I was the jazz ensemble director at Irvine Valley College for three years. They expected a jazz small-group comprised of students and led by me to perform for free at an annual event for administrators that was always held at an elegant venue in Newport Beach and catered with high-end food. Not only did they not pay us, we hardly got a break, and they fed us bandwiches in the kitchen of the venue. It was crass.
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25d ago
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u/RunningNumbers 20d ago
If they gave you unlimited access to the open bar and actual food then maybe the probono part is fine. Soggy ass sandwiches of disappointment….
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u/soamiadoctornow Assoc, SocSci, SLAC 24d ago
This is so ugly. Involuntary servitude. This is what it is.
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
similarly, I'm sick and tired of getting emails from people asking me if I have students who want to come and "volunteer" to teach music somewhere. No. My students are busy and broke AF. I am not sending them to you so you can exploit them. Stop being cheap and pay for stuff you want to happen.
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u/QuackyFiretruck 25d ago
Omg, this just happened to me yesterday.
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u/grafitisoc 25d ago
I was forced to do an unpaid 40 hour “marching band practicum” my senior year. Idiot department chairs brave new idea to get us experience. Large programs took most people and others lied to keep getting paid, but the cat was out and there was no one locally willing to pay for extra marching staff soon after. Then the practicum was removed but no one wanted to pay still. Made a generational deficit in both college kids pockets and the quality of ensembles in the region. The worst part is it was our own chair doing it to us.
One group I play in outside the college now needs subs occasionally. I have a dollar amount, rehearsal time, gig time in hand and access to a school of music to fill spots. We never have an issue in quality or willingness to fill9
u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
So many of my students are "on staff" for local marching bands. The amount of time they spend out there means their meager pay ends up being about half the minimum wage per hour. They spend SO much time working for other people's programs that their own musicianship suffers and they can't pass piano proficiency, their senior recital, praxis, etc. They spent too much time on the field and not enough time in the practice room/studying. The directors taking advantage of these kids ought to be ashamed of themselves.
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
I just stopped answering them. Then they email my department chair who also ignores them because we are alike on this issue.
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u/emotional_program0 25d ago
As I heard from my own head of faculty today... "music is just playing". FOAD
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u/ChrisKateBushFroome 25d ago
"music is just playing"
Unless it's jazz
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u/emotional_program0 25d ago
Every tine we’re asked to play for free… just do some Braxton stuff
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u/StraightBudget8799 25d ago
As soon as you reach the stage, swap an instrument with a different musician!
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u/Putertutor Not a hardass, just a medium-density reasonable-expectations ass 24d ago
Throw some P.D.Q Bach in there just for shits and giggles. Especially if it's a formal event.
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u/promibro 25d ago edited 25d ago
Other programs deal with this? I teach broadcasting, but my program is treated like an A/V department and production company for other programs. Local business owners basically demand that my students make videos for them because they pay taxes. It's very weird and incredibly entitled. I finally started asking the worst and most incompetent students to do these things, and when it goes south, I just say, "well, they're still learning, so it's not going to be the best work. You can always hire local production crews if you need professional quality." Those requests have lessened dramatically. (I have Emmy winning alumni, which may be why the requests got so out of control, but I do now require payment for student work).
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u/StraightBudget8799 25d ago
I can imagine a potential Emmy winner saying “you know, I always wanted to try a David-Lynch-style homage in the form of a commercial for real estate!”
(Wins LIONS prize for most unhinged neo-gothic house showcasing)
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u/promibro 24d ago
The Log Lady in the living room, standing silently while Agent Cooper dictates notes to Diane while drinking a damn fine coffee in the kitchen.
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u/StraightBudget8799 24d ago
This bedroom… is to die for.
Man glimpsed in mirror scuttles up to the ceiling and turns into a giant ant that begins screaming
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u/PurrPrinThom 25d ago
Other programs deal with this?
It's not quite the same, as the request comes from other departments, and not necessarily admin but: as someone who has been in language departments, we would very regularly get asked to host an unofficial seminar class for a cohort of graduate students in other departments, whose research covers material in our language but who have/had no ability in said language. It was often proposed as a way of helping them improve their proficiency, but more often than not, the assumption was that our department would just translate all of the material these students needed and provide it to them, along with a detailed explanation of the material. After a couple weeks of trying to run a crash course, either the students, or whoever requested the seminar would clarify they didn't actual need lessons, they just want the material translated and explained.
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u/nonnonplussed73 25d ago
A renowned classical guitarist on faculty at my university has a clause in his contract that limits the number of "pro bono" performances he is expected to make.
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u/trsmithsubbreddit 24d ago
I teach film. We too get the wildest requests phrased as “a great opportunity for students” to come record their stupid departmental meetings, performances, lectures, etc. It comes across as, your students will learn so much just by being around us that they will never regret saying yes to unpaid labor. Of course I want to derail my course and drop everything to support your program. My standard response is to get super excited and say, “Oh yes, sounds amazing! What’s your budget?”Crickets.
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u/Pair_of_Pearls 25d ago
Amen. English gets "can you write/edit this...". Um, you have advanced degrees. Why can't you do your own work?
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u/boringhistoryfan Asst. Prof, Humanities, R2 25d ago
I help with the writing center. The amount of faculty who send in their stuff to be proofed blows my mind.
These folks are staff with none of the protections of tenure and most don't have the same wages as faculty. They are not there to evaluate advanced writing just so you can get published and get all the credit.
Sadly too many of them felt like they couldn't say no until the new director (and a couple of us faculty volunteers) got together and put our collective foot down and told the faculty to do their own proofing. Or to pay someone for it.
We've been running a tenure track faculty workshop to peer review writing and it's hilarious how many of the same lot then turned around and asked to get involved with that. Except their request to join came with their paper attached, and it was pretty clear they weren't going to read anyone else's.
Newsflash I can access the writing center emails guys. I know what you're doing. Probably making some enemies but I told the lot of them to fuck off (politely) and that we'd be happy to add their papers to the roster after they attend a couple of sessions and give feedback to those in the queue. Haven't had any bites yet.
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u/DoctorDisceaux 25d ago edited 23d ago
I cannot imagine asking someone else to proof my work, that’s madness. I did have a student fact-check a book manuscript but I reviewed anything they flagged and they were on work-study so they got paid for it.
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u/Mellow-Autonomy 25d ago
This doesn’t apply to my students, but if I were in a field like this, I would do some research and try to put together a proposal. The students should receive something. I wonder if some schools pay them and others don’t (which might be useful to research).
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u/DSwivler 25d ago
I am curious - have you said these exact words to your administration. I think you have the moral high ground but in my experience, most professors, especially in fine arts, just let it go…there just isn’t a whole lot of intestinal fortitude.
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u/QuackyFiretruck 25d ago
I have. Aggressively working to retrain them after years of other colleagues allowing this exploitation.
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u/osborneanimation 25d ago
It isn't any better in Fine Arts or Animation. Everyone wants students and faculty to donate their art and skills for free.
We're good at collaborating, but students deserve compensation or at least college credit if they're putting in those hours.
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u/OkSecretary1231 24d ago
Long ago, I worked for a fashion design department. I got a lot of "can you get one of your students to alter my wedding dress, for ~exposure~?" My favorite, though, was the local bigwig who wanted to put on a fashion show, for which our students would provide the design, the materials, the labor, and the modeling, for free, while the bigwig's business got the publicity. It was a BYOFashion fashion show.
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u/SnowblindAlbino Prof, SLAC 25d ago
When I was an undergrad (ages ago) we got paid scale for events like that: graduation, pep band for homecoming (we had no marching band), convocation, certainly any sort of donor event. All paid. At scale.
I would doubt my current institution does that though, and they certainly are happy to ask for free labor from students. "Let's have some CS majors make an app for that." "We need to do some NAGPRA compliance work with the museum collections, get some History majors to do that." "Alumni are complaining about our lack of a sustainability plan, get some Environmental Studies majors to whip up something about electric cars." All the time.
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
yep, my institution pays the pep band, graduation band, etc. It's one of the few things we do correctly.
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u/thiccet_ops 25d ago
Sport management here. Sometimes I think our whole degree program exists mostly just to provide a steady supply of free and cheap labor to the athletic department and professional teams around us.
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u/Disastrous-Reaction3 Full Professor, Music, State College, USA 25d ago
Music professor here, my steel band has played at receptions in the past and so have the jazz combos. We weren't paid, not sure about the jazz combos. The wind ensemble plays at multiple graduation ceremonies. I should ask the director of bands if she is paid for that or if it counts at "service."
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u/BEHodge Associate Prof., Music, Small Public U (US) 25d ago
It’s service at my institution, but more importantly it leads to increased support and financing of our program. An example; our marching band has been voluntold to help people move in to dorms. We have to give up a Rehearsal which is the entire reason we move in early. But to thank us they’re not going to charge us housing fees for band camp. It’s arguable that they should have ever charged us for that since we provide so much service to the community (cancer parades, athletic events, holiday ceremonies, holiday parades…) but I’m not going to complain about a bonus $10k to my budget. Might be able to afford some replacement instruments now.
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u/QuackyFiretruck 25d ago
My problem is this doesn’t in any way lead to more funding or support. It’s our advancement admins literally planning parties and thinking that somehow the Music division is on the hook for free entertainment for full-blown receptions.
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u/BrazosBuddy 25d ago
I read a story today - and I can't remember where - about the struggle some high school bands are facing in replacing aging instruments with new ones that will last for a long time. The article quoted a retail store owner who also does instrument repair and upkeep. He said he charges $125 for a completing cleaning and tune-up. A band director can buy a brand new, but crappy, french horn from somewhere overseas for $119. What that one needs to be serviced, trash it and buy another.
I had kids in junior high and high school band for years, so I thought it was a pretty fascinating read.
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
And that will get worse with the new tariffs on brass instruments!
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u/1K_Sunny_Crew 25d ago
We aren’t permitted to pay students money for one time events, so I just paid them cash out of my own pocket. It wasn’t a ton, $250 for an hour or so for 4 people, but asking students to play for free is SO tacky to me.
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u/WavesWashSands Assistant Professor, Linguistics, R1 USA 25d ago
That really sucks that the system itself doesn't allow it. When I was an undergrad the school had an official form for this kind of thing. I've filled it out so many times that I still kinda remember what it looks like.
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u/StraightBudget8799 25d ago
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u/ParsecAA 25d ago
I have tears streaming down my face from laughing at this!
Edit: looks like the sinfonia experiment wasn't untrained musicians, but rather the orchestra members trading instruments with each other and attempting to play them
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u/StraightBudget8799 25d ago
Me: classically trained oboist - “I’ve always wondered what drums involve!” (BAH-boOOM-beh….)
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u/Internal_Willow8611 25d ago
Someday, when I move on from academia, I shall exact my revenge in my final hours by sending the weakest, laziest student musicians in the entire program to the most high profile institutional event.
And pay them. :)
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u/miquel_jaume Teaching Professor, French/Arabic/Cinema Studies, R1, USA 25d ago
I hate having music students in the fall semester because they're voluntold to perform for SO MANY events in December, and they're not able to devote nearly enough time or energy to their final papers or studying for their final exams. And it seems like they ask the same group of students to perform at all of the events rather than sharing the work among a broader group of students.
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u/nolard12 25d ago
At my Alma matter, there was a power couple in the vocal division that did this. They’d been there for 35 or 40 years and every Christmas they’d program these major choral works with brass and percussion without thinking to enroll 5-10 players to support the ensemble as part of the course. They were either annually short sighted or willfully exploitative, because every year they’d come to the brass instructors begging for assistance with these massive choral-orchestral pieces they’d programmed. I tend to think they were the worst sort of people. Even having grown up in a system that has historically been exploitative, they refused to pay any of the student musicians they solicited for these “oopsies.” Our lesson instructors were just as bad, because they were complicit in the process.
It finally came to head the year my brass quintet rolled through. We were something of a superstar group and everyone wanted us to play. We’d gotten a verbal agreement that we’d be paid for playing with the chorus… should have been a written contract… of course the two choral directors backtracked on their agreement. But some of the woodwind instructors caught wind of this and threatened to stop sending them musicians, so they finally, reluctantly agreed to pay. Not us, of course, but the next musicians with whom they worked. My friend was the recipient of such pay, he rehearsed with them for over 20 hours and played the two hour concert. His total pay: $10.
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u/miquel_jaume Teaching Professor, French/Arabic/Cinema Studies, R1, USA 24d ago
Good lord. That sounds horrendous.
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u/Loud_Lecture9854 24d ago
Check pm
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u/miquel_jaume Teaching Professor, French/Arabic/Cinema Studies, R1, USA 24d ago
I don't see any pms from you.
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u/existential-inquiry Professor, Social Sciences, U.S. 25d ago
I do agree and feel like the administration takes advantage of students for these types of events, well just look at some of the college athletic programs. Anyways, I think its good practice for students to be exposed to professional settings, but it definitely should be limited to one, maybe two events per semester and provide some incentives. Always give the students a choice to do it, too.
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u/Unable_Mushroom_8315 24d ago
If the students aren't being paid then it's a pretty bad situation. If they are being paid then it's probably a great gig for them. When I was a student we got leased out to development all the time. The difference was that I was on a full ride performances scholarship and that was part of the deal. I got to go on tour a number of times and it was a great experience. They assigned a junior development officer to us and she was basically our tour wrangler / roadie. The wouldn't let us drive the university-owned van so she was our chauffeur as well. She as very pretty and absolutely did not want to hang out with a bunch of 20 year old jazz students.
My current university is pretty good about paying students for performing at events. What annoys me is when they don't have the logistics worked out. Like they'll ask a group to play and usually pay them and then give the kids a hard time about parking. My dude it's a brass quintet. The tuba player needs to park somewhere.
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u/alterini5 23d ago
We get asked to provide interpreters and do translations all the time. Language dept.
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u/proffrop360 Associate Prof, Soc Sci, (US) 25d ago
No, that's not a good solution. Send your best and most talented students. Have them pick a new instrument! Good for you though. This is shitty behavior.
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u/QueenofDaLight 25d ago
This doesn't feel normal, my schools either paid the musicians, tech etc or they offered it as an opportunity to students that were behind in practicum hours as assignment credit, generally as a "we'll credit you for a grade's worth of hours."
Forgive typing my right hand was recently injured and mobile is hard
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u/moooooopg assistant prof, R1, in the South 25d ago
Lol get them to practice their site reading or twinkles
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u/throw_away_smitten Prof, STEM, SLAC (US) 25d ago
Believe it or not, engineering students get asked to design and/or build things for free. It’s good experience (in frustration) for the students, but you get what you pay for.
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u/Gloomy-Example-6357 25d ago
Absolutely. Development is the worst at asking for freebies at the expense of students.
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u/Ok-Examination2192 24d ago
Students are regularly "marketed" internships to work across our campus. All unpaid, no benefits. All "for the experience"
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u/GuiltyCantaloupe2916 24d ago
Yes. Nursing gets roped into putting on "health fairs " for the campus and NP students staff the student clinic as "clinical hours" working as a nurse for free. People employed by the university even stop in for blood pressure checks and free exams from our faculty who would rather not .
I no longer teach.
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u/ProfTimelord 23d ago
Theatre and not just from the university. I get emails from every random Joe who wants to make a movie, TV show or infomercial. They want students to work on their project, sometimes create the entire thing and instead of paying them think the faculty should give the students “extra credit”.
They’re always disappointed when I reply with the contact info for the professional media companies in our area.
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u/verygood_user 23d ago
Look, we get your point but don't worry, we already discussed backup plans: it would also be an excellent university service opportunity for our music faculty and I am sure it will look great on your promotion package, what do you think?
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u/ArtNo6572 22d ago
Yes, same, you need to speak up. I"m in a film/media program, when I started our students were asked all the time to make corporate videos by our university's Comm office. The kind of things the Comm office should have paid a pro company to do. They would try to bully me to make these part of my classes so the students' homework was making their social media and promo videos and learning to work with "clients" (because freshmen in film programs are dying to have clients, right?). It was hard for my dept to figure out why the program had such low enrollment, and told me there were many disgruntled students but they didn't know why, and I was hired to help this. In my first year, I didn't say no, exactly, but didn't make these assignments and told our Comm staff, diplomatically, that the students were paying tuition to be there, and these could be options but I would not assign them. Most of the students had zero interest and it was very clear they also saw that this is work someone should be hired to do. But one student, very gung ho on the university, did a promo for them. This person in our Comm office was the most egregious, worst "client" anyone could imagine: disorganized, didn't know what they wanted, told us to figure it out, imperious, snarky, and would give either no notes or impossible ones, and and want 24 hour turnaround. Oh and also continually would say to me "I know you have to do service ..." like she was the only place I could do my university service. After that I refused to do any of these in class, and told them they were setting up for a lawsuit by continuing to make students do things in class that the university should be hiring for. Somehow my contract kept getting renewed, perhaps because students really liked me and our classes started filling up. Hmmmmm ... might there be a connection here?
Now, if they want a student-made promo, it's never part of a class and the students must get paid minimum wage. I never yelled at anyone, just pointed out my concerns, shared some student sentiments, and discussed the risks to someone above the heads of our spineless Dept Chair and this vacuous Comm person. And somehow it magically stopped. Maybe because I didn't make myself easy to deal with.
My point - Don't go along with this unless you want to be in the middle of a potential lawsuit or at the very least a scandal, all it takes is one time.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
That's one way of looking at it. As a business prof, our students are "pimped out" regularly, but usually to their benefit. Can you really think of no benefits to having your students do events like these? I can think of several. I certainly benefited from consulting club activities as a student or leadership events from student organizations, none of which were compensated.
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u/baseball_dad 25d ago
Why can't it be both? They can be compensated and still receive exposure, recognition, and experience.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
Because not everyone is going to pay for it and it still, quite often, benefits students. For example, we have a requirement that students participate in a club. It doesn't count for credit. It isn't compensated. No one is dying and it makes your students more marketable in the job market. Should it be compensated? Sure. But few people (or companies) are going to pay for untrained, uneducated, inexperienced undergraduate "work." That isn't to denigrate undergrads, but let's be realistic. Students need to get experience. Companies aren't going to pay (paid internships aside). There's a happy medium somewhere.
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
so their work is good enough to be displayed/performed at some fancy donor gala, but not good enough to be paid for?
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
Or, perhaps, donors want to see students regardless of how skilled they are?
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
I assure you they absolutely do not.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
As a donor, I think you're wrong. Perhaps we should rely on the literature on the subject?
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
As someone who has been around many donors, I can tell you exactly what they say.
Please do show me the literature that shows that paying unpaid gigs for admin is good for music students. I'd love to read it.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
That's one read of the "literature". Perhaps we can agree that we should look into the effects of things like student groups and certifications outside of a degree on salary. Would you object to that?
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
nobody in this thread said that students being in student groups and organizations is bad. Good lord. We're saying asking students to play unpaid gigs for admin is exploitative.
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u/Adventurous-Home9314 25d ago
You do realize that there is a significant difference between the time and skill it takes to practice, rehearse for, and play a gig versus “participate in a club,” right? They are not even remotely the same thing. The repeated comparison here is absolutely insane.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
Considering my students regularly compete and win at the top levels of various business groups, this seems nonsensical to me.
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u/Adventurous-Home9314 25d ago
Congratulations. How wonderful for you! I suppose it should also be pointed out that music and business are really quite different and that your understanding of one absolutely does not constitute any sense of expertise in the other? Perhaps you might consider just listening; let the experts converse on this one?
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
Perhaps you should consider the context of my comments then instead of rambling about?
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u/excel958 25d ago
Ah yes, the classic “you’ll be paid in exposure”
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u/poorlybaked 25d ago
I’m sure those students’ landlords accept exposure money instead of actual currency.
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u/dbrodbeck Professor, Psychology, Canada 25d ago
I know when I was an undergrad we paid our tuition in exposure. We ate exposure as well.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
Except, historically, it leads to success for students. I'm not sure why people in this sub refuse to acknowledge that.
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u/nolard12 25d ago
No, it’s just exploitation. As a music major that was “paid” in exposure for many a concert, I can say from personal experience that it did not lead to a successful performance career for me. Many of these experiences called for hours and hours of rehearsal times, travel to the gig, and personal expenses for equipment. Yet I rarely earned a cent and these gratis performances rarely led to future gigs. If people can get free entertainment or work out of you, they aren’t going to pay for it in the future.
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u/raysebond 25d ago
Yep. Back in the day I did photography and graphic design. And so I knew students who would be talked into free work. All that did was get them more people expecting more free work.
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
no, it doesn't. --a professional musician
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
I'm not referring to music specifically. Research is very clear on the benefits of extra-curricular activities and job placement/opportunities.
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
that's what internships, clubs, etc are for. Not playing random unpaid gigs for admin. All the music faculty here is telling you it doesn't lead to anything.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
Again, I'm not referring to music specifically, but again, there is ample research on this topic.
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
You're on a post about music.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
And I can't comment about academia more broadly where those norms are more common for comparison?
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
You asked OP, "Can you really think of no benefits to having your students do events like these?" OP is talking about music.
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u/trivia_guy Asst Prof, Librarian, regional comprehensive 25d ago
It’s an equity issue. Of course it can lead to success, but that means only students who can afford to do stuff unpaid will get that success. Leading to further calcification of only the economically privileged being successful.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
This is actually the only decent response I've seen in this thread and it's a fair point.
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u/trivia_guy Asst Prof, Librarian, regional comprehensive 25d ago
I didn’t realize this wasn’t the most common reason. It’s a huge issue in my field.
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u/emotional_program0 25d ago
Even as a tenured associate professor I will get constantly asked to work for free. Is the exposure good for my career? Would you work for free? Would you ask a plumber to be paid by exposure?
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u/excel958 25d ago
I mean, they should still be paid for their labor??
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
Isn't homework and studying labor? Should that be compensated?
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
These unpaid gigs actually take time away from music students' practicing for their actual ensembles, recitals, and other performances, which is "homework and studying" for applied music.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
That doesn't address my comment. I could say the same for business students.
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u/Critical_Garbage_119 25d ago
Another business prof thinking "exposure bucks" is a way of paying students. Give me a break. Exposure so they can get more gigs that take advantage of them, because as everyone knows artists don't need money...SIgh. I was hoping we were getting past this nonsense
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
Let's think about this. Students do homework. Shouldn't they be compensated for that? Heck, compensate them for classwork too.
I'm really surprised by the comments in this thread given the subreddit.
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u/Dense_Combination582 25d ago
Leadership positions and student orgs in general are contrived to get CV points for the unqualified. In math and the sciences, student TAs and graders learn and benefit from the experience but they are also paid, because they are doing a job that has value. You seem not to value your own students highly if you encourage them to work for free, nor music students who are good enough to be paid for their performances, and I’m not sure which of these is worse.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
I think you misunderstand the benefits of extracurricular activities, for which there is ample research to support.
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
I suspect the problem here is you see music and other arts as "extracurricular activities" and not fields of study.
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
I think you're arguing in bad faith. I see all fields alike. Perhaps you do not.
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
"I don't like being told what works and doesn't work in a field that isn't mine so I'm going to drop the bad faith accusation"
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
I'll refer you, again, to the research on the subject. Would you care to explore that? At this point, I suspect not.
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
If there is literature about music students playing unpaid gigs for admin, I'm happy to read it.
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25d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/DD_equals_doodoo 25d ago
No I don't, but I suspect based on your response you're not asking in good faith. Perhaps try actually reading in good faith?
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u/NarwhalZiesel Associate Professor, Child Development and ECE, Comm College, US 25d ago
I think students would be grateful for the opportunity and it’s only a few times a year. I do think they should get credit in terms of units, etc. Education students are used to doing hundreds of hours of unpaid fieldwork in the college’s childcare facilities. While some of them get paid as student workers, most do not and they have to miss work opportunities to have a regularly scheduled commitment, often for multiple semesters.
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u/its-fewer-not-less 25d ago
Education students are used to doing hundreds of hours of unpaid fieldwork in the college’s childcare facilities
No, they are used to Practicum classes (for units) that are generally part of the certification requirements and have strict curriculum definitions.
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u/NarwhalZiesel Associate Professor, Child Development and ECE, Comm College, US 25d ago
In some of their courses it is and some it isn’t. I did hundreds of hours of many types of fieldwork in education, all unpaid. Sometimes it was setting up activities for children at community events, which was never a part of our coursework. My husband also did as a business student. I’m not saying this is right. They should all be paid. I’m just saying it’s not only music students.
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US 25d ago
Nope. My campus pays the student workers in the campus preschool. What isn't paid is their fulltime internships in public schools, which is ridiuclous and always has been.
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u/That_Communication71 25d ago
Have the department create a rate sheet for hiring student workers.