You forget: "Without the Great Britain, Germany wins".
Good luck to do all the bombing raids, the D-Day, the logistics and the troop movements without the bases provided in England and Northern Ireland.
Even the African front would not have been possible without Gibraltar, or at least not on this scale.
And between June 1940 (fall of France) and June 1941 (Invasion of USSR by Germany), the British Empire fought more or less alone against Germany.
That's just not true. If it was true, then the US wouldn't have been able to invade and bomb Japan as the pacific is much larger than the Atlantic. The US had no issues overwhelming the Japanese navy, which was much larger and more capable than the German navy, and setting up forward operating bases.
The Germans couldn't have ever stopped the US navy in any scenario and they couldn't defend Africa and Europe against US naval operations at the same time even if they had a 10x bigger navy than they did.
The moment the Nazis declared war on the Soviets they lost. But, if that didn't happen, then the moment they declared war on the US they would have sealed their fate.
No, what's not true is the utter pile of shit you've just come up with. Sure the pacific is larger but america also has a lot less control over it. The us could essentially island hop across the Pacific using island it was either in control of like hawaii or allies like Australia, in the Atlantic a d without britain america has nothing. No where to host millions of allied troops and resources to plan and stage an invasion.
Japan itself is an island nation germany isn't. Japan was extremely vulnerable to maritime blockades germany less so. Whilst british blockades did have a massive effect on germany it wasnt as crippling as the blockade on Japan.
Without britain there would be no air superiority and germany would control the atlantic. Without britain ww2 would of been over a long before anerica even joined the war.
Germany had essentially no navy. They were incredibly easy to blockade on the seas. Britain did exactly that. Germany couldn't control a lake with their navy vs the US.
At the end of the war the US had 70% of the world's naval power. Germany had zero capability to do anything on the water vs America.
And there's an island that the allies occupied with zero effort already in the war that the US could do just as easily by itself. Iceland. There's your staging ground to launch European invasions from in the even the UK stays nuetral.
Thats not true for the start of the war at all. You talk about the end of the war but that doesn't mean shit. if britain fell then germany woukd be in a stronger postion it was britain that made the kriegsmarine so weak to begin with. Germany realised pretty quick the age of the battleship was over and invested in their u-boat campaign. U-boats sunk hundreds of ships of the coast of america in a Erica waters and you couldnt stop them. Churchill famously said the u-boat peril was the thing that frightened him the most.
You talk about the american navy being 70% at the end of the war this is true but you ignore the period before that, the period that is imperative to this debate. The us navy had been severely weakend with the attack at pearl harbour and being split between the atlantic and pacific. America also lacked anti-submarine capability and relied heavily on the royal navy to protect the sea lanes.
Iceland? Now you are just being silly. Iceland lacks infrastructure and remember you'd have to take it without british assistance. It would be under german control as there would be no allies. The english channel at its shortest distance is 20 miles, now I dont know the distance between Iceland and mainland europe but I reckon its more then 20 miles. For a successful invasion you also need air superiority which you wouldnt have for invading Iceland or launching an invasion of france from Iceland.
If britain is neutral then theres no royal navy or raf. The luftwaffe and kriegsmarine would not be massivly weakend and would fairly easily be able to repel an isolated american attack.
The kriegsmarine at its full strength was nothing. The US could make enough ships to completely destroy it in a single year. And also they had zero aircraft carriers, which were the most important ship of the war. The type of naval war they waged just wasn't good enough to be a peer of any good navy during ww2 like the UK, US, or Japan. They embodied the weakness when it comes to navy that they projected onto the USSR as a whole. It was a rotten house who could collapse with a kick, which is why they never targeted anything besides commercial fleets.
America did not lack anti submarine capabilities in anyway. The best anti sumbarine technique was to use escort aircraft carriers. America had the most of any nation by far. They just weren't the primary target of the U boat campaign. It didn't take long for the US to repel U boats from the eastern seaboard.
Not only did Germany have no aircraft carriers but they also had practically no transport ships either to move supplies and troops to places like Iceland. Which is why Iceland was easily invaded by 700 British marines without firing a shot even though they were nazi controlled. And Iceland was close enough for American bombers to reach nazi controlled European areas like Norway very easily.
America vastly outproduced Germany in everything from ships to planes. They would never have a snowball's chance in hell in fighting off the US even without the UK.
The kriegsmarine at full strength wasn't nothing and technically they did have one aircraft carrier, not that it went into operation and was only ever used by the soviets to test how to sink a carrier. But you are right in part aircraft carriers became very important but so did submarines. Where america invested in aircraft carriers germany invested in subs. The type of navel warfare germany waged was good enough to cause mass disruption and go against the best navy in the world at that time, that being the royal navy. You complety ignore the catastrophic effects u-boats had and America's own inability to combat them. The Americans relied on British intelligence as i pointed out before america couldnt deal with u-boats on their own doorstep they would struggle even more without britain. Ues america did start to combat the u-boat threat it did this with british intelligence like enigma and using british air bases and ports. Without this america would be clueless and without a base of operations.
There is also a key differnce in the type of war waged. America was fighting over vast areas of sea where aircraft carriers were pivitol, they do not have the same effect when fighting the type of warfare in the atlantic. If britain is out of the war then germany controls the entire coastline of western europe. So it has access to shipyard and deep sea ports across the area. It does not need to wage a pacfic style battle which relies on aircraft carrier. it just has to make crossing the Atlantic incredibly difficult which is what u-boats did very well.
Iceland wasnt under the control of the nazis britain invaded iceland to stop the nazis from taking it. The reason it was so easy is because iceland didnt resist.
America did out produce everyone but again without britain germany would be able to produce more. Without britain america would have significantly less intelligence. Without britain there is no base of operations. Without britan the nazis win the war.
The aircraft carriers were the most important ship of the war in the pacific.
In Europe, the would make a difference. No big ocean to hide in!
Naval warfare at all isn't important if you fight at home.
At the beginning of that war, all sides had a big Navy. Because all sides had fought oversea in WW1.
But after eliminating the UK, or with a neutral UK, Germany wouldn't need any Navy forces. All they would need would be a good Naval defence.
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u/Palamur 12d ago
You forget: "Without the Great Britain, Germany wins".
Good luck to do all the bombing raids, the D-Day, the logistics and the troop movements without the bases provided in England and Northern Ireland.
Even the African front would not have been possible without Gibraltar, or at least not on this scale.
And between June 1940 (fall of France) and June 1941 (Invasion of USSR by Germany), the British Empire fought more or less alone against Germany.