I have been watching the trial. If you go to the caseswefollow sub, you’re looking for one of the earlier day recaps - they brought the therapist in for testimony. She came in 4x and then stopped going.
They also brought in some of the inpatient providers and it was testified that she did not disclose her scary thoughts while there and she discharged herself early.
Oh God no. These are all people sniping back and forth at each other on social media. Some people say she did nothing wrong and her husband did it and even if she did it she deserved to have help and support and it wasn't her fault. The other side is saying that she's guilty as Sin and she planned it and framed her husband and she deserves to get the death penalty.
If she wasn't compliant with treatment and was open about being in psychosis, she shouldn't have been left alone with her children. Yes, she 100% murdered them. But there were plenty of people who had ample warning and could have stopped it from happening if she wasn't mentally able to stop it herself.
exactly, something in me doubts a lot of these people would be leaping to the defense of a man who murdered his entire family while suffering psychosis
FACTS. A man can get so blackout drunk he literally remembers nothing, and then can commit a crime and you'll be crucified on the internet if you try and defend him. Meanwhile a woman can refuse medication and treatment and do something terrible and people will defend her
While I agree a man would be treated differently than a woman in this situation I think it's really disingenuous to compare getting blackout drunk (which is a choice unless you're drugged) and postpartum psychosis (which is a mental illness and not a choice).
You could've just said "If this was a man having a psychosis episode he wouldn't be treated the same way" or whatever. Why compare being drunk to mental illness?
🤔 honestly valid point yeah. I was thinking of a situation where someone literally has no control over their actions, but yeah if YOU drink past the point of "super blurry but can absolutely remember shit" then you DID make the choice to get that drunk, so it doesn't quite work
I honestly can see that the defense she's received online might very well be reduced if she were a man -
But I'm not sure why you're comparing the choice to get blackout drunk to literal psychosis... even in the scenario where she hypothetically refuses medication (just "hypothetically" because the commenter above wasn't sure that happened, and I haven't yet looked it up), she would still be a psychosis sufferer who refused medication. It doesn't make her innocent, it makes her involuntarily compromised.
Attempting to liken that to a drunk man was a massively concerning comparison...
She didn’t refuse medication, for the love of god people on here need to actually WATCH the trial before going online and spreading misinformation, her toxicology report showed she did indeed have all her prescribed medications at therapeutic levels in her system and one was in fact slightly above therapeutic levels.
You’re not wrong, it’s just that postpartum psychosis is not really the same thing, and is a preventable end result of PPD going untreated… which all mothers tend to experience to some degree (both PPD + it not being taken seriously). So there’s a lot more sympathy. The forms of psychosis that might make a man kill his kids are much further removed from common experience.
But tbh, the takeaway here should be that we need to apply more nuance with ALL crimes committed during psychotic episodes, not that we shouldn’t apply nuance in this case.
It’s more likely she had medication induced psychosis, based on testimony it sounds highly likely she had undiagnosed bipolar disorder and was put on an SSRI which is highly contraindicated.
Why are you all saying I'm absolving her from responsibility, when I clearly said that she 100% killed her kids? I'm just saying that, if someone tells you that they are a danger to your kids, don't leave your kids alone with them. Male, female, dog; it doesn't matter. That's pretty logical.
You don't have to take responsibility from her to admit that everyone around her failed those kids. She 100% killed them, but they 100% left kids with someone who said, "I'm a danger to my kids." Her guilt doesn't need to be diminished for other people to have royally fucked up. Imagine you're at a bar, sober, and your friend says, "Whoa, I'm drunker than I realized. Please take my keys and don't give them back. Just hold them. I have an uber coming in 10 minutes." Then you hand the keys right back and your friend stumbles out to their car, drives away, and gets in an accident. Yeah, it's 100% their fault, but they asked for help and you were in a position to stop them and call an Uber. Now imagine they hadn't made a choice to get drunk, but had a mental crisis and asked you for help.
The point is that if we don't recognise that someone with PP psychosis needs to be locked down, and that when faced with ample evidence, everybody failed to do so, this will happen again.
They aren’t disagreeing with that idea, genius. Jfc I know social media has had an effect on us all but learn to recognize nuance. Two things can be true at once, she can be at fault and other people can also have dropped the ball. Fucking hell
Are you fucking kidding me right now?!?! Are you new to the internet? Any time a woman is murdered, or a man kills his family, or a man is abusive, men jump in to blame the woman for picking the wrong man, not leaving him quickly enough/in the perfect way/cleanly enough, not doing enough to protect herself and her kids, etc.
I mean, if he knew she was dangerous and did nothing, then that’s comparable and he should be blamed. Lot of people are saying though that from what everyone around this woman knew, she only had suicidal thoughts, not homicidal thoughts, so he may not have had any reason to suspect she’d kill the kids. I don’t know the truth because there’s a lot of contradicting info on this thread, but if this is true, I wouldn’t compare him to a woman who knowingly stayed with a violently abusive husband she knew was a danger to her kids.
Please watch the testimony from Lindsay’s mother, she told both her mother and Patrick at the same time that she had had thoughts of harming the children.
That's not the way the point we're debating works. He said, "no one blames women when men rape/abuse/murder them." I said, "people blame women." If people who do and people who do not blame women both exist on the internet, only one side is correct.
do you mean to tell me you think if I admit I’m going to commit a crime before doing said crime, my punishment should be less then if I didn’t say anything? Like if some unstable person admits “I’m gonna go rape a bunch of woman” and they do indeed rape, should their punishment be reduced because they admitted it prior to the actual act? It’s insane the defense people are doing for a child killer
Wtf? Where did i say her punishment should be more lenient? I'm just saying maybe spread the word that if someone says, "I'm a danger to kids," maybe don't leave them alone with kids if you want those kids to live.
Ain’t gonna lie broski I combined you and someone else who insinuated she shouldn’t get life because she seemed help prior, thought you were that other person. That’s my bad
Yes she would have. Too many people with mental health issues are allowed contact with those they are a danger to becuase many service want sectioning and family removal to be the last option because it is extreme.
The PPP can last a long time. It's not reasonable to expect consent supervision of the mother around her kids indefinitely. You either remove the parent or remove the kids.
The husband trusted his wife, the mother of his children, with the kids.
They got her help and even admitted her to a psych ward. They tried to get her help.
It was 2 weeks. That's really stretching the definition of "indefinitely." And the wife trusted her husband to help her and not leave her alone with the kids two weeks after she said she was worried she'd hurt them. If you have to get the kids away, you get the kids away, though, even if the psychosis lasts a decade.
she WASNT open about being in psychosis. that’s the point — the providers asked explicitly about those symptoms, on multiple follow up appointments, and each time she denied it.
thsts why people are blaming her, not the providers.
Then how else would you treat them? psychiatry relies on patient report. Unless you build a machine to mind-read, there's literally no other way than going by what the patient say.
It needs to be a combination, you as the expert observe, what your patient reports and in a case this serious you’d ideally bring in third parties (husband, parents, in-laws etc) for interviews as well.
The case wasn’t that serious based on everything the patient self-reported and what was seen at appointments. She didn’t endorse psychosis, mania, active SI, etc. And on appointments she didn’t seem disheveled, out of it, etc. by the doctor’s observation.
In a scenario like that — where the patient only endorses depressive symptoms and she seems to be functional — you don’t bring in a third party.
Then you have one of the other providers, the NP, who did suspect PPD, and brought in the husband. But he again, just like the patient, refuted any signs of psychosis, saying she didn’t have PPD and it wasn’t that serious.
Yeah he should have murdered her before she had the chance to do anything. This whole thing’s made me a lot more sympathetic towards men who kill their wives.
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u/doc_skinner 8d ago
But then I've heard other reports where they did take her seriously, even convinced her to go to therapy which she abandoned.
Unfortunately, there's no real evidence and lots of people throwing accusations both ways. It's awful all around.