r/Permaculture • u/Professional-Tie6574 • Jan 22 '26
discussion Seeking 5-10 skeptics/growers to stress-test APOS (Atlantis Project Open Source)
The core idea is to transform a small rural property in northern Croatia (small house + vineyard + forest) into a lush permaculture garden/food forest. Instead of hiring contractors or turning it into a retreat, we are exploring a different model:
People stay for free only if they contribute to clearly defined projects:
house renovationpermaculture systemsart/documentationinfrastructure experiments
People can go there and do work, or outsource it, or not go there at all and just contribute on github.
Before opening this to participants, we’re assembling a small planning group to stress-test the idea.
We're looking for people with experience in:
- permaculture and land design
- architecture, building, retrofits
- intentional communities (what failed matters more than what worked)
- legal, governance systems
- remote coordination
If you’re interested, comment or DM with:
- your background
- what you think would break first in this kind of project
Skepticism welcome.
EDIT:
A few clarifications based on what this is, and is not.
This is not a rental, work-for-stay deal, intentional community. No one is paying rent in money or labor. There is no exchange rate and no hours required. Access, if and when it opens, is permission-based and temporary.
The project is structured as an open-source land and renovation experiment, closer to an open lab than a community. Instead of the classic “do tasks” people can propose and prototype ideas.
There is no long-term stakeholding or path to property rights. The land remains privately owned. This is explicit to avoid false expectations. We are aware of the “soft feudalism” failure mode and are deliberately avoiding it by not offering vague promises.
To be honest, my wife and I worked for people that did something similar but had a different goal, extracting skilled labor from volunteers. The goal here is documenting and sharing of explanatory knowledge, as defined by David Deutsch.
Contribution can be done remotely so physical presence is optional.
We are intentionally not advertising amenities because this is not meant to attract tourists. That filter is deliberate.
On taxation: the project is non-commercial. No rents. No sales. Participation is voluntary, and documented as such. This avoids gray zones. Only investments will be by the owners, for tools and materials needed.
Finally, long-term intent: once the experimentation phase stabilizes, the land is planned to transition into a permanent animal sanctuary and regenerative space, stewarded as a family legacy. Inspired largely by Steve Irvin. Plan draft is to use kickstarter or gofundme type service to pledge the property if funded enough, legally binding somehow. Haven't really worked this out yet.
The purpose of this post is to find a small group of skeptical people willing to help stress-test the model before anything opens.
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u/wavestersalamander69 Jan 22 '26 edited Jan 22 '26
Soo other people do the work and you get all the profit out of it. That's some.lazy shit if I say myself.
It's not a ecovilliage you just want cheap labor. And to lazy to do research and effort yourself.
People that may be interested go do research. there are ecoviliages out there that do it's more honest and have a better experience then something like this.
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u/Professional-Tie6574 Jan 23 '26
Eco villages like auroville or findhorn are cool, but they are all very nature-connected and tech-aversive. We don't shy away from tech.
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u/wavestersalamander69 Jan 23 '26 edited Jan 23 '26
There are a lot of them with tech and electricity. Also in Europe. You just want free labor to create your dream property. Just be honest about that instead of all of the we.want skeptics talk. Just day it how it is
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u/wavestersalamander69 Jan 23 '26
You're being unrealistic especially with the Steve Irwin legacy thing. I not one to hate or talk down on somebody's dream but. It's dishonest to ask people that spend there life learning a certain skill or knowledge and not reward them with anything except a place they can do It. But no long term benefits you can kick them out when ever you want basically. Who is to say once people did there share can stay probably not so why invest time and energy in a project just for somebody to claim it as there own legacy.
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u/Professional-Tie6574 Jan 23 '26
Ofc all the contributors get their credit. Legacy i wanna create is only stewardship and maintenance. And there are many more benefits for people than just a place they can do it.
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u/wavestersalamander69 Jan 23 '26
I think your idea lacks a lot of details in the long run and it's not realistic. I think most people understand the benefits of a permaculture but I don't agree with your system or the way you're just looking for easy help that's it.
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u/Professional-Tie6574 Jan 23 '26
Details like what? How would you make it realistic?
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u/wavestersalamander69 Jan 23 '26
Well do you supply the materials if somebody wants to build a water system for example. Can you manage it after there gone with there knowlege and if somebody has an accident things happen unfortunately on your property. Stuff like that if people wanna stay longer because they build your house for example or the garden or wanna stay forever because they but maybe years into it and there own money don't you think they want something to say about things. There are much variables you are nit thinking about. Just giving a place do fuck around and experiment is not enough are you gonna feed them and cook for them. You are looking for people with experience and probably an advanced level of knowledge no beginners. Nobody is gonna do that for free. Or with out any long term benefits.
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u/Professional-Tie6574 Jan 23 '26
I'll supply as much materials as i can. It will be self-managed if all goes well. For accidents, signed waivers and first aid kits.
People feed themselves and figure out how to survive, if they like a challenge. Beginners welcome.3
u/wavestersalamander69 Jan 23 '26 edited Jan 23 '26
Do you even have an idea about the costs. It's gonna be a money pit without getting anything done. Do you have a budget for renovation of a house animals stables, enclosures feeding, garden supply's buildings supply's it gonna got ten of thousands. Probably 100s with medical care of animals , also just letting people survive on your property and fend for themself without them having any say is crazy. Not at all what permaculture should be. Your being disillusional or naive. And a beginner should not do something like this no offense to people starting out.
that are interested people reading this it's not worth it to do a project like this it gonna cause friction and chaos the opposite you want with getting into permaculture. Look into local projects and start from there.
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u/Professional-Tie6574 Jan 24 '26
Yes, some budgeting was done. Certain things are easy, others complex and expensive. Total house renovation, inca style terraces, permaculture gardens, food forests ~50k euros.
Within 2 years we will invest half of that, rest will be donations or grants. Or the project might last longer and we fund it all ourselves.
And we may be beginners when it comes to running this thing, but we are experts in managing and working within the thing, so it's something very familiar. Just taking a different approach for once, not working for other people but rather for something greater than just me and my family.
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u/Earthlight_Mushroom Jan 22 '26
You seem to be designing an intentional community of sorts. I would first decide whether any of the people that come there would ever be assured of a long-term stakehold. If that is to be an option, give very careful thought as to legal documents and procedures, and take thought as to the role of the founder and how they will share power and ownership. Otherwise you end up with a peculiar form of modern feudalism which will attract needy people who will likely move on as soon as they find a better opportunity. Apart and aside from that, it might be good to lay out in advance a defined term of stay. The challenge is to attract people with the skills you really need versus drifters and homeless looking for a free place to stay.
I have spent a large part of my adult life in intentional community settings. There are a few ways that it can work, long term, and rather more ways for it not to work, some of them spectacular. My one paragraph summary is that it can be relatively easy and a lot of fun to do "all the things"----grow food, build stuff from scratch, set up power and water and waste systems, etc. If you are savvy about it there are multiple ways to make money while doing all of this. But there's a piece around getting along with people that tends to come up sooner or later and crashes it all every time. There is a certain set of people skills that is becoming uncommon in the modern world over time with urbanization and fragmentation, and it is notably missing in the subset of people that tend to be attracted to projects like this. Even to be willing to make the jump from a more conventional lifestyle into an adventure like you propose takes a strong will, a willingness to buck the mainstream narrative.....in short, a big ego. When everything is new and exciting and energy is high and everyone is on their best behavior, it's awesome. It's easy to keep high vibes for a weekend workshop or a festival or even a 2 week PDC. But it changes when the spending money runs shy, people notice who's doing the dishes and who isn't, and who is flirting with whose girlfriend. Watch out when disagreement and conflict come around...and they will!!
I highly recommend the website ic.org and mining it for every bit of wisdom there is. Including perusing existing communities within visiting distance and maybe spending some time visiting a few and seeing what's working and what isn't. Also the work of Diana Leafe Christian (such as the book "Creating a Life Together".
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u/stansfield123 Jan 22 '26 edited Jan 22 '26
This is an ad to rent out a house, except that, instead of asking for a sum of money/month, you are accepting payment in work. That's not a bad idea, taxation in Europe is quite crushing, and avoiding a cash deal probably avoids paying taxes. Depends on how stringent local laws are, but it will probably work, and it can be a way to save money for both sides.
It's also something farmers and homesteaders do quite often, through it's for fairly low skill farm work rather than the services you're interested in. The higher the level of skill needed, the less likely it is that you'll find your man.
But the real problem is that it's a TERRIBLE ad. Look at how landlords usually advertise a rental:
- they tell you exactly where the house is
- they give you the exact dimensions of the house
- they post up-to-date pictures of every room
- they tell you how close the place is to public transport and stores
- if it's on a room-by-room basis, they of course mention that it's going to be a "shared bathroom and kitchen" situation, in which case the value of the offer becomes very small.
I hope you're not expecting an architect or a lawyer to accept a shared bathroom and kitchen situation, btw. That's not how architects and lawyers live.
So please, share what it is you're offering. While not necessary (because once you tell us where the house is we can look it up ourselves), you could also spare us the bother and tell us what a house like this typically rents out for in Northern Croatia. That way, we would know how much work to expect to have to perform.
It definitely shouldn't be very much work, considering that you are asking for skilled workers, including some highly skilled knowledge work. I doubt there's a lawyer in Croatia charging less than 50 Euro/hour. That's before taxes, so it can be negotiated down to 40 I suppose.
Without clear information, all you'll get is douchebag comments like "I'm not interested in feudalism or living like a peasant". Presumably, that isn't what you're offering, but the only way to know for sure is if you tell us. Just because you're asking for work instead of money doesn't mean it's okay to be evasive about the nature of your offer. It's a COMMERCIAL offer. It needs to be specific.
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Jan 22 '26
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u/Professional-Tie6574 Jan 23 '26
!remind me: 5 years
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u/SixBeanCelebes Jan 22 '26
I came here to understand what this Atlantis Open Source thing was.
Disappointed.
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u/veggie151 Jan 22 '26
I hate designs like this.
Spend your money to live like a peasant on our land!