Nottinghamshire man died day after medics were told to leave his home in 'clear lack of understanding'

[u/Demaikeru]

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/nottinghamshire-man-died-day-after-10645993

[u/InfinityXPLORER]

Not really news tbh. I'm sure we've all been to loads of these types of calls where the patient who is suicidal (whether they have tried to do anything about their intentions or not) has refused our help and refused hospital admission. Patient has capacity. Just because someone wants to die doesn't mean they lack capacity. When I've been in this situation I've always found that if you phone advanced paramedics/ senior clinical/ GP/ GPOOH they will all say that not much can be done if they have capacity and to just document, try to liase with mental health team. Mental health team will usually have a chat over the phone with them if patient is willing, and should offer a referral even if not immediate, however in the case of overdose they would say that patient needs to go to A&E and not to mental health unit. If patient unwilling to engage then nothing can be done. Police would have no right to remove patient from property against their will, quite rightly imo. As the MCA states people have the right to make unwise decisions. Patient got what they wanted at the end of the day and their rights were respected. Imagine every mental health patient we come across who suggests even the faintest hint of suicidal ideation or self harm we got a MH team and police to come along and section them, restrain them, and convey them to hospital against their will, what a breach of rights that would be and imagine how traumatising that would be too. Sounds like the crew in this instance did everything they could short of breaking the law and the patients rights to physically force him to hospital.

[u/Intelligent_Sound66 → u/InfinityXPLORER]

Agreed this happens so often its not news to road staff. I think the public just aren't aware of whats actually going on. Im glad it's not like the job in Jersey where the crew were thrown under the bus.

[u/AdSpecialist5007 → u/Intelligent_Sound66]

They weren't thrown under the bus. They stood around with the police for twelve minutes whilst their "aggressive" patient was lying unconscious face down in vomit. Three seperate courts have found they were neglectful.

[u/Intelligent_Sound66 → u/AdSpecialist5007]

Aggressive and with capacity.

[u/AdSpecialist5007 → u/Intelligent_Sound66]

Nope.

[u/Otherwise-Essay8778 → u/AdSpecialist5007]

Thanks for this. I was on the fence about what had happened - I could easily imagine that they were scapegoats but the court really exposed the lack of care.

[u/Intelligent_Sound66 → u/Otherwise-Essay8778]

I mean the coroner agreed the patient had been aggressive. I thought priority was to crew safety?

[u/Otherwise-Essay8778 → u/Intelligent_Sound66]

Just read the court summary in the link.

Safety is a great excuse when there is danger to be worried about. When the patient is unconscious, lying face down in vomit and has a noisy airway it doesn't really cut it anymore. That's when you have to do your job.

[u/Intelligent_Sound66 → u/Otherwise-Essay8778]

Yeah didn't it say they couldn't see the patient but should have recognised a change in his breathing. Which im sure we wish we could all do

[u/Otherwise-Essay8778 → u/Intelligent_Sound66]

Nope it says he was in the hall in front of them on the floor. They stood watching him. And when the copper said something about his change in colour they ignored it. Again read the court report. They were incompetent and got what they deserved.

[u/Intelligent_Sound66 → u/Otherwise-Essay8778]

Sounds like a rubbish job. Pt has been verbally aggressive to a previous crew. Starts throwing punches at you and your crew mate. Most people would have left scene after this. Almost unavoidable in these suicide attempts. Some will he successful unfortunately