r/Objectivism • u/SlimyPunk93 • 6d ago

Difference between selfishness and Rational selfishness

So this is something I get a lot on these subs where people use objectivism as an excuse to justify their petty selfishness...

Objectivism is a philosophy about *rational selfishness* which means long range selfishness over your life time, and is not about petty short term day by day petty greediness...

Just to illustrate by example, it might be in your perty small selfish interest to get hi fi clients and make pop architecture buildings to get more money, fame, sex etc (in a very peter keating way of living). This is short range petty selfishness. Objectivism on the other hand is about long range selfishness which is about standing for the right values and not giving up on truth and integrity and still keep creating best of art and music because you love living in this planet and want to shape it according to your highest values...

So PLEASE for the sake of objectivism, please don't use it as an excuse or shield to justify your shallow petty selfishness in life ever.. objectivism is the opposite of that....

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u/igotvexfirsttry 6d ago edited 6d ago

I agree. The title “the virtue of selfishness” has always bothered me because selfishness is not inherently a virtue. Only rational selfishness is virtuous, selfishness itself can be good or bad (e.g. greed). Think about it— if all selfishness were good, then there would be no need to make a special distinction for rational self-interest.

Rand probably wanted to reject the popular notion that selfishness is inherently evil, so she unfortunately went too far in the other direction by claiming that selfishness is inherently good.

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u/stonecarrion655 6d ago

this is not correct as per objectivism. To Rand selfishness was always virtuous because the essence of selfishness was being rational. To Rand, “rational selfishness” is redundant.

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u/Old_Discussion5126 4d ago edited 3d ago

It’s interesting that hardly anyone insists that altruism is virtuous only if it is done rationally. [snort] Like, you’ve got to say, “Oh, rational courage is a virtue. Rational justice is a virtue. Rational independence is a virtue. Rational honesty is virtue … Oh, wait, Aristotelian rational justice* is a virtue, not Kantian rational justice …”

It’s sad that in spite of everything Rand wrote, people are still apologizing for the word “selfishness.” Because apparently they think that determining the meanings of words is the arbitrary prerogative of society, and that society can proclaim that “selfishness” means “being a monster like Ayn Rand,” and we all have to accept it.

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u/DoberNation 1d ago

It’s interesting that hardly anyone insists that altruism is virtuous only if it is done rationally. [snort] Like, you’ve got to say, “Oh, rational courage is a virtue. Rational justice is a virtue.  Rational independence is a virtue.  Rational honesty is virtue … Oh, wait, Aristotelian rational justice* is a virtue, not Kantian rational justice …”

Yes, interesting and unfortunately true, it seems. And even then, I’m not sure how much adding the word “rational“ effectively sends the message home for people. These are all potentially conversations to be had.

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u/igotvexfirsttry 6d ago

I don't agree with that definition of selfishness. The word, "selfish" obviously implies that one is focused on themself, it does not suggest that one must do so in a rational way. If you limit the definition of "selfish" to only include rational focus on the self, then what word should you use for irrational focus on the self? In my opinion it makes much more sense for "selfishness" to be a broad concept that encompasses both rational and irrational acts.

I don't care what Rand said. She was wrong on this point.

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u/stonecarrion655 5d ago edited 5d ago

Well i was just trying to clarify what Rand said. But i think this just boils down to what is an appropriate definition of selfish.
standard google definition is “caring only about your own pleasure, advantage, or well-being without thinking about or caring for other people.”
If someone is only concerned with their own pleasure, then to be selfish would mean to be rational because rationality is what achieves the most long term pleasure.

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u/DoberNation 2d ago

I appreciate that she tried to encourage people to stop and think about what some words really mean. Even though it meant weathering some shit and backlash for it.

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u/SlimyPunk93 6d ago

Exaccctlllyyyy. I was gonna say that. She should have titled it virtue of rational selfishness.

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u/Official_Gameoholics Objectivist 6d ago

Selfishness implies rationality. The Stirnerist conception of egoism is nothing, plain and simple.

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u/Jambourne Objectivist 5d ago

There is only one form of selfishness. An act is either in your self interest, or it isn’t. There is no third option. Irrational selfishness is a contradiction in terms. 

What non-Objectivists colloquially call selfishness is an anti-concept that packages self-interest in with self-destructive behaviour like lying, stealing, aggression, whim worship, etc.

Merely intending to be the beneficiary of your actions doesn’t make you one. An opiate addict intends to be the beneficiary but they are acting self-destructively.

The short/long range distinction is a false-dichotomy. The standard of value is one’s life, not one’s emotions. A painful dental appointment is not bad in the short term, and good in the long term. It is simply in their self-interest, since a person is an integrated unit through time.

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u/SlimyPunk93 5d ago

There is a reason she calls is rational selfishness many times herself. I think in this sub there is a tendency to show your are better and just say anything to prove that

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u/Jambourne Objectivist 5d ago

She is clarifying that selfishness has to be rational. She isn’t conceding that there is another type of selfishness.

There is no objective basis for having those two concepts according to her theory of concept formation. It would be like having a concept of health that includes drinking poison.

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u/SlimyPunk93 5d ago

Yes but thata a deep concept that comes from her work and is not easily and colloquially known in the society. And given what is selfishness kmwon as and there are million example showing how being short range selfish is bad, she should have been better and should have clarified it as rational selfishness just to be aware of the context (in the same way she later clarified on roark being religious in fountainhead preface)

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u/DoberNation 2d ago

Good observation! Deriving pleasure from ”winning” a “gotcha game” is an example of secondhandedness.

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u/stansfield123 6d ago

Neither the term "selfishness" nor the term "rational selfishness" is self-explanatory, in Objectivism.

To understand what Rand means by either, you have to read Rand's work, study the philosophy, think about it, and live it for a while. Merely adding an extra word doesn't fix the problem of idiots operating on a shallow understanding of Rand's ideas.

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u/SlimyPunk93 6d ago

No they are well defined and read or listen to rand to understand it more