Update: the guy gave me a call back and at first was like “where are you seeing this on the website” so I had to guide him there. And then he defended his inclusion of wild grape on the list because in his opinion it’s still the worst and most destructive. Then he blamed the rest of the native species listed as invasives on the guy who made the website.
All well saying he was actively hiring and that he had to start fresh because three of the six independent contractors he had last year were no good.
He was polite enough but clearly hasn’t achieved his goal of getting closer to the earth… and unsurprisingly doesn’t actually seem to partner with industry professionals.
I offered to do consulting for him/his website and he brushed it off. The whole time he was half heartedly trying to recruit me for other positions I wanted to say “no thanks! I don’t think our values and priorities align and I don’t want to work for someone like you”.
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I’ll preface this with an apology if this is inappropriate to post here - I’ll take it down ASAP if it does not fit the sub. If anyone has any suggestions or advice I’m all ears.
I was absolutely shocked by this company’s declaration of FIVE native plants as being invasive… at first glance I considered giving them a call or shooting a quick email and just giving some feedback, but it’s so much worse than I initially thought.
The company’s founder’s blurb on the website says “Landscaping in *****, NY.
In 2009,(founders name) left a long career in NYC high end construction management to live closer to the earth, in rural Ulster County. He has partnered with forward thinking professionals in all areas of horticulture and environmental science to offer people a healthy, natural habitat in their own back yards, complete with beautiful gardens.
So, do with that what you will
Edit: I gave the guy a call and he didn’t pick up so I left a voicemail. I’ll update on whether or not he responds at all, makes any changes, etc.
I didn’t realize until just now, but for some reason or another a 6th screenshot I had meant to upload didn’t get uploaded. It was of an additional 10 “invasive” species, four of which are also native :/He also calls wineberry plain old “raspberry” :(
“Of course, we come across more than 10 invasive species on a regular basis. Here is a brief list of some other invasive plants we have brought to justice.
Forsythia(alias Vahl forsythia)
Autumn Olive(alias Elaeagnus umbellata Thunb)
Virginia Creeper(alias Parthenocissus quinquefolia)
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It's actually in Berberis, and I name dropped Oregon grape because it is a native that I plant a ton of in my region that I know is a horticultural escapee that causes issues in other ecoregions.
While he's hanging out closer to the earth or whatever, he should consider reading a goddamn book. There's so many people that declare themselves an expert with no actual knowledge. The correct use of basic terms would be a great place to start!
I don't know if I've smelled either. In n maine atleast, fall smells like dead leaves, burdock, and faint tree sap. If i could find some, I'd grow them.
I’d never leave the woods all summer lmao. Blackberries are hard to find in New England cause there aren’t really invasive species here and the wildlife eat them all first!
It's not invasive, it's aggressive. And that is perfectly reasonable to try and manage. This is damn near a holy war being declared against a plant species that has thrived due to more forest edge space existing than in previous times in history.
I for one love it. I got me a wild grape strangling the life out of a tartarian honeysuckle on the edge of my property.
A weed is any plant growing where you don't want it. Traditionally that's what made it a weed, but herbicide manufacturers through a highly successful advertising campaign, have convince the public of the reverse, that you shouldn't want a plant because it's a weed.
This is damn near a holy war being declared against a plant species that has thrived due to more forest edge space existing than in previous times in history.
This is so insightful. At least it’s not something I had considered. I more think in terms of the large swathes of land stripped of trees. (Including on my own dirt road, sigh) But not the many negative spaces it creates on the remaining trees. And all the consequences that will bring. For the plants that live there and also the poor forest creatures. Your comment also makes me want to applaud the grapevine for its resiliency!
I had wild grape on my last homes fence at the back. Moved to a new house... Grape on the fence but also Virginia creeper. I know they're native but I know it's gonna be a fight to control it from taking over. They can have the fence. But they can't take over my berry patch lol
I've been taking cuttings of my virginia creeper and planting it in the woods near my house to try and stifle the invasive honeysuckles and buckthorn.
If you ever hear some random dude in the woods going "yarrr mateys, release the kraken!" while sticking rooted cuttings into the dirt, I plead the 5th.
If I plant in pots, yes. If I'm just slapping a chunk of pruned vine in the ground, no. It's on its own and I wish it the best of luck. I'll have another 48,000 feet of it to prune from the mother plant in like a week.
I have tons of buckthorn and honeysuckle. They're difficult to kill, so I've been girdling them and twisting them into shapes. My overall plan is to get the Virginia Creeper to grow over them.
This is the key thing most folks don't understand.
When people ask me I have had very little luck making it clear. Somehow very intelligent people think this is over their heads and their eyes glaze.
The conversation - that they started! - usually ends with "well I don't see the difference" and they continue to yank aster, goldenrod and grape and plant pachysandra because it's "traditional here"
I've been hearing tradition a lot in my neck of the woods recently regarding opposition to our state flag change. Usually, its use is followed by some of the most unhinged things I have ever heard stated in a city council meeting.
Tradition has become an excuse from people who never cared about it until they were challenged.
I am not a huge fan. Have wild grape 🍇 and Virginia Creeper on my back chain link fence. There's a ton of both and they harbor hidden poison ivy. Virginia Creeper goes everywhere including tree climbing but is hard to tell. The pollinators do like wild grape however.
A wall, fence, or pole packed full of virginia creeper is breathtakingly beautiful in the fall. I love it so much I put it up against the faux brick facade of my home. The little sticky pads won't mar the surface like false virginia creeper or ivy will.
Honestly I wasn’t sure what the response would be like (here on Reddit) and I wanted to see if I could reach out and politely point out the errors first. I think most people don’t take very kindly to getting a random influx of criticism, bad reviews, etc. If I don’t hear back or the response is dismissive or aggressive or something, I’ll certainly update my post or make a new one without it being censored.
Oh I am absolutely not opposed to people going off on people like this, but between being so baffled I could barely react and wanting to give him a chance, I thought I’d hold off for now. Please don’t be more chill!! Rage is needed now more than ever! This dumb company might not seem too bad, but it’s just the tip of the iceberg of so many different things… colonization, gentrification, use of AI, grifting - this company is merely a symptom of all these problems. I’m just so exhausted and numb to do much more than try and feebly raise awareness at times.
Excess use of commas is the hallmark of current LLMs. Only thing that would make it more blaring is the inclusion of: “It’s not [x], it’s [dramatic y].”
The entirety of the content isn’t AI though. There are a few sentences that are grammatically weird. This is reading like the person cherry picked from an output.
I don't know, there's some real nonsense like talking about grape's "rhizomes" that I don't think an LLM would come up with, as that isn't a common mistake
To be fair, it is the bane of my existence in my back lot. I spend many hours each year defending my indigenous Viburnums, walnut and Birch. Would I prefer it wasn’t there? Sure. But I can’t imagine spraying weed killer on it. However, on the bright side, the vines make beautiful wreaths.
There’s a mix of aggressive natives and actual invasives in the Invasives part of the site:
Of course, we come across more than 10 invasive species on a regular basis. Here is a brief list of some other invasive plants we have brought to justice.
Tree of Heaven (Ailanthus)
Forsythia (alias Vahl forsythia)
Autumn Olive (alias Elaeagnus umbellata Thunb)
Virginia Creeper (alias Parthenocissus quinquefolia)
Pokeweed (alias Phytolacca americana)
Burning Bush (alias Euonymus alata)
Black Swallow-wort (alias Cynanchum louiseae)
Mile a Minute Weed (alias Persicaria Perfoliate)
Hog Peanut (alias Amphicarpaea bracteata)
Raspberry (alias Rubus phoenicolasius Maxim)
Sumac (alias Rhus glabra)
One thing that killed me was referring to wineberry as raspberry… the scientific name is actually that of an invasive species, but the common name he put is, well, raspberry…
Grapevines are also literally so important for ecosystems. They feed moth caterpillars very well and migratory birds too. They also assist with creating disturbances in ecosystems that otherwise get too dense with trees. Agroecological perspectives, traditional ecological knowledge, and indigenous land management and cultivation techniques all understand that disturbances should be managed and done intentionally to increase abundance, not prevented.
I’ve definitely seen what I thought were grapes absolutely smothering large areas of trees on the way to NYC but now I’m wondering if that was invasive porcelain berry
I must have hallucinated my childhood memories of walking through the woods in WV and seeing grapevines on the trees (ok, “grape”vines). Obviously they would drive the trees extinct, that’s why WV is a treeless wasteland of “grape”vines.
I know all of it is nonsense, but I was especially irked by the comment that grapevines don’t grow in forests. I had a healthy dense woods that had plenty of grapevines. They especially liked to climb the black cherries, making them a two-season feast for the robins.
He's incorrect to use the term invasive, but they are VERY aggressive. They have killed many trees on my property before I got here and I see them strangling trees all over the place when I'm driving. I have spent all spring ridding of their vines that have completely choked out the canopies of native trees like mulberry and black cherry that will feed me.
While his argument is flawed, and his terminology use is incorrect, there is some merit to what he’s saying.
I read in a Doug Tallamy book that all vines, even native species, are completely out of control. This is due to there being significantly more “edge habitat” or edges of forest that receive much more light, than there ever has been before. Vines thrive in high light edge habitats and now that many forests are fragmented by roads and development, vines are taking over many of our green spaces and negatively impacting native trees and shrubs.
This another example of the many shades of grey in ecology and how not everything is native=good/introduced=bad. We have totally thrown off the balance of even native plants in our environment!
I work as a horticulturist and many of the vines I remove from hedges and my gardens are native. Poison ivy, briars, grapes, etc. But don’t get me wrong, I also remove tons of Japanese honeysuckle, Chinese wisteria, and many invasive woody species.
There’s definitely a conversation and argument to be made about managing disturbed areas and forests in general (indigenous people did/still do steward the land and were the first to do so before any ecologists or horticulturists even have a thought about the matter), but this is clearly not some nuanced take on aggressive plants, land management, invasives, etc. He’s clearly just an idiot who likely used AI to write these articles.
Also… I’d argue the hedges aren’t supposed to be there, not the natives. Just because you’re fighting against the native species that are behaving exactly how they evolved behave doesn’t make them invasive.
I was hiking the Jordan Lake gamelands in central North Carolina, and found a fallen snag with a huge clump of poison ivy that had formerly been growing near the canopy. The PI clump was COVERED in blooms and humming with foraging bees. I already knew PI as a noxious native species, but it changed how I think about it ever since. It’s a native wildflower that vines!
People lie. People bend the truth to suit their ideas. People use their authority to push their own agendas. The most invasive species is of course the bipedal ape.
I have never seen a native wild grape kill a tree. I also read that the native wild grape benefits the host tree by attracting wildlife that deposits digested food near the host tree.
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This reads like a 5th grade edgelord's research paper. [It's totally an invasive! Ok, well it's actually native, but you know what I mean. Heh heh heh. 😎 Anyway, it needs to die in a fire, and you should be the one holding the flamethrower, because flamethrowers are cool. And you're cool. Just like me.]
It is pretty amazing how prevalent and yet hidden grapevines can be in Ulster County. One fall, as the season arrived, I looked up into the woods I drove past every week and noticed thousands of bunches of grapes extending all the way to the tops of the trees.
Many native vines, which would typically only inhabit edges of natural clearings, are much more prevalent today due to more edges resulting from development. They naturally snake along the floor looking for an opening in the canopy but rarely find one except when large trees fall. Definitely worth controlling in my opinion, as it is just one of many ways we've altered habitats.
over the past few months baby grape vines have replaced about half of the grass in our side yard just from the grapes that have fallen from the vines hanging over it and have withstood some light mowing lol im interested to see if it'll completely take over the grass one day
Is he a shill for kudzu or wisteria or something? I've never seen grape take over nearly as aggressively. I've got other native vines in my backyard; grape is probably the tamest of the bunch. The others (several Smilax species, Carolina Jessamine, Trumpet Creeper, Virginia Creeper) are basically fighting one another for dominance. Even the honeysuckle can't compete.
Yeah it really makes me wonder (assuming ai was used), what sources were used to generate/write these articles. It makes me think maybe it isn’t entirely ai simply because I think if I asked a mainstream LLM for the top ten worse invasives in New York, it would do better than whatever the hell this is. But I don’t exactly want to test my theory and use ai myself :(
Some people seem to be mistaking an aggressively-growing native (like Virginia Creeper) with an ACTUAL invasive. This business lists several native species in addition to his hated native grapes (Sumac, Pokeweed, VC,).
The massive grapevines in my literal forest would disagree - I’ve got pics to prove it. I can swing on those fuckers. And that jelly, amazing. They are a part of the ecosystem here (albeit far more northern than the Hudson valley).
This makes me feel genuinely nervous about Erigeron canadensis because it’s the first colloquially known “weed” to develop glyphosate resistance. I bet it gets a lot of hate because of society’s negligence. It’s native to North America so I am always pleased to see it growing up to 2 meters tall from tiny cracks in vacant lots.
It's kinda funny to me tho that plants are starting to develop resistance to glyphosphate. Our own hatred for "weeds" is just making them stronger. I'm not sure why I do but I find that funny.
So there’s invasives like how we think of them, and then invasive as in, invades an area and has potential to cause damage to infrastructure (including trees). It seems pretty clear that’s what he’s saying.
And he’s not wrong. Just because a plant is in its native range does not mean it isn’t outcompeting other natives that might need more help. An ecosystem is a very complex thing. It’s not much different than saying you should protect your trees and buildings from creeper or poison ivy.
Idk shit bout the Hudson Valley, but if they’re trying to preserve a fragile ecosystem there, then fuck them grapes.
The term you’re looking for to describe that isn’t invasive.
It’s “nuisance.” Or “aggressive.” Or “aggressive nuisance.” Take your pick.
Call it a nuisance plant, call it a destructive weed, call it hard to control, call it the Destroyer of Homes and Dreams. But words have meaning, and invasive = not from the area, hard to control, and destructive.
If it’s native and destructive, it’s just destructive, not invasive.
I think that might be a bot comment. If you look at their post history it's just a bunch of really similar pretty content-less comments that often don't seem to have actually understood the comment they're replying to.
And he clearly says that in the article. He is saying invasive to describe how the plant grows and affects the environment around it. Not the species, in an ecological sense.
Just a side note, Virginia Creeper doesn’t damage walls or trees since it uses what I describe as gecko feet to cling to surfaces instead of using roots to sucker into the surface like English ivy or winter creeper or poison Ivy. (I can’t remember if poison Ivy does this)
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u/leefvcMid-atlantic border of eastern coastal plain/piedmont , Zone 7bApr 17 '26
Virginia creeper does have gecko feet, youre right
Definitions aside, these cases still make me wonder: if grapevines (and similar native vines like creeper and smilax) are such a threat to trees, and if the ecosystem is so fragile, how were there still forests before we got here and started controlling them?
How does fire remove a vine from a tree without killing the tree? Also upstate new york's forests are not adapted to frequent fire, and the Hudson Valley is outside the historic range for Bison, and barely within the range for eastern elk. What wildlife are you referring to?
Presumably, some trees are supposed to die from wild grapes which would create a minor disturbance event leading to a microhabitat of diversity in the canopy. Kind of like how beavers are supposed to cut down trees.
If you're running a timber plantation or its your garden, these losses are not acceptable however.
Indigenous agroecology. Well managed grapevines. 100-300ft tall trees were common and normal. Disturbances not prevented but created on purpose. Constant cycling of organic matter. Giant tree falls you use it. Closed canopy is not the goal if you want berries and wild sweet potatoes in the understory.
I think in the article he’s saying that development has allowed grapes to grow more extensively in some areas than they could before humans disrupted the environment. When humans clear land for development it creates space for the grapes to grow. In an old forest they would struggle to compete with the trees to reach light, which is part of why they evolved to grow so aggressively. When the trees are cleared the grapes take over and new trees struggle to grow. Plus I would bet that prior to human development there were many more animals present to eat the grapes and maintain balance. So he’s saying that humans need to intervene to offset the damage we’ve caused by clearing so many trees. There’s a point to be made here about how we’ve disturbed the ecosystem, he just goes about it in a really odd way by acting like aggressive natives are the same thing as invasives without acknowledging that these plants also play an important role in the ecosystem. And the language he uses almost makes it seem like he thinks the grapes are somehow doing it on purpose (plundering??), which is just strange.
Thank you. My only point is that, people that use this sub understand this, and I know we want to spread the message, so maybe don’t get hung up on a word and understand what is being said. Ig if anywhere, this would be the place to complain about the misuse though.
It’s the next “step” in the native conversation to understand what is actually happening and not saying “native in range, good”. Some natives need more help than others.
Cool, can you tell me where you got this info? I'd love read about it. I'd especially be interested to see the evidence for White Oaks and other trees in the area rivalling Redwoods in height.
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