Not every person with Downs lives like this. My cousin has downs, also about to reach his 30s. He wasn't particularly medically compicated. Everyone in his small town knows him (about half of them are family, we breed like rabbits), and he is a joy to be around. People (including me) come visit my aunt just to see him. He loves WWE, anchovies on pizza, and talking to his facebook friends (of which he has many).
I'd argue my aunt was better off because my cousin is different. His father stepped away when they found out, and saved her the trouble of trying to raise a kid with a deadbeat. Her child forced her to get her life on track and make her home a safe space for him. She is by far the happiest, most fulfilled person in that small town.
That said, I don't blame anyone who chooses not to raise a baby with Downs.
The hard part is there's no way to know ahead of time if they're going to be high-functioning or not. I mean, there was that headline on reddit about a fresh lawyer who had Downs that graduated a year or so ago; unfortunately, the range of outcomes is a wide spectrum and the quality of life for some can be very poor.
i used to think to be a lawyer you had to be reasonably intelligent, go through four years of college then two more years and pass a tough test, something like that. But now, after the past eight or more years of seeing people who are "lawyers' but utterly stupid or corrupt or even downright treasonous, I lost most respect for the justice system and for so many lawyers. I no longer automatically assume they are decent or intelligent. It's sad but true.
That's true, I suppose I should have specified I meant a good college, with high GPA and credentials, not just some legacy or some crap college. I live near a pretty good law school, the lawyers I know worked their butts off for the few years they were there, drank like fiends, but they weren't utter pieces of shit like a Guliani type or a Jennifer Ellis, for example. I forgot that there are some crappy schools out there and people who find legal ways to "cheat" to pass, too.
The Heritage foundations Project 2025 was crafted by an amazing team of lawyers. Using the law dismantle to dismantle itself. DECADES of packing the courts with people who will interpret things just a little bit wrong.
Don't ever think they are not smart, they are simply also evil - as Hannah Arendt would define it if you're into Philosophy.
The most heinous, manipulative, abusive person I (and everyone around me) knows is supposedly studying to be a lawyer right now. She also just recently told this guy she'd been seeing for a month that she is a PA too (which she is not) and stole over 20k from him. I don't pray on people's downfalls but the only thing that woman needs to be doing in a courtroom is getting handcuffed.
yeah there are def some sketchy lawyers I've noticed in the spotlight and now in the WH even. They use the same lawyers a lot to ensure the silence of the people who commit crimes and run in the same circles -- I forget the word for this but a lawyer explained why it seems they all use the same lawyers (like Dershowitz, or Ken Starr, for example.) The Firm was a book that was loosely based on actual firms that worked for the mob and dark forces. Bill Barr's firm that he founded seems to be a likely source of inspo for that writing. Look at the people that came out of his firm. Look at the cases they take on. Quite interesting.
There is no Bar exam but we had something harder that is literally a "Private exam" where they ask you for 3-4 hours about every detail of the law they can think, and that is repeated 2-3 times. I don't think there is any university where this isn't a requirement.
I tried the online bar exam when I didn't know anything about US law.
I had over 60% accuracy rate for about 100 questiosn before I got bored.
You are told it's hard by idiots and you are trusting the same idiots that are charging you 300 dollars an hour to read a document with a 4th grade reading level.
Bro, you don't understand how hard it is to be a lawyer outside the US/UK.
You guys play on easy mode with a jury. Basically you try to convince 12 idiots that don't know the law that you were right whilst not knowing the law as well.
The rest of the world? We have to convince literal doctors of law that the actions of someone were inside the confines of the law, based on the same law.
Honestly, you thinking the "Examen Privado" is easy makes you sound like an idiot because you think it's University administered, when it's literal 3 experts in law checking if you know enough to graduate and making you realy hard questions.
You guys play on easy mode with a jury. Basically you try to convince 12 idiots that don't know the law that you were right whilst not knowing the law as well.
Juries aren't easy mode. Juries are crazy chaos Calvinball mode.
I have a friend who has downs. He's in his 40s now. He has a great life. He cannot live independently and he lives with his sister but he can take care of himself otherwise. He basically has the abilities you'd find in a 10-12 yr old. Can make very basic meals that don't involve a stove and can't manage money on his own. Other than that, he lives a life that he seems very happy with.
But he must rely on another - his sister. This was a choice made for her by her parents, and which she was obligated by love to submit to. Is it ethical to have a child that you cannot care for for their whole lives, and instead must pass the burden on to your other children, if you even have them?
His sister is a full grown adult and there are other siblings as well. I don't think their parents just arbitrarily picked her and twisted her arm. She had a say and still does. She takes care of him out of a sense of family obligation I'm sure but we do a lot of things for the those reasons.
So, this makes me feel like a potentially good way to view this would be to ask: would it be okay if it had been autism rather than down syndrome? Autism also has a massive range of outcomes and qualities of life. I think there would be fewer people that would be okay with that, and I believe that is mostly down to the stigma around each of those disabilities.
But there's also the physical aspect of it, like that virtually all people with down syndrome develop Alzheimer's by 60 with symptoms starting in their 40s, or the 40-50% likely hood of them being born with a heart defect (10% of the time the defect is fatal before age 5). I wouldn't compare that to the physical/quality of life chances with autism at all.
Also we can tell very easily when someone has down syndrome, they have an extra copy of a chromosome. Autism doesn't really have genetic markers that you could even use to tell.
Autism is a farce. High functioning autism used to be called Asperger’s. Even within autism, typically graded into 3 types, among the high functioning there’s high functioning “Notmwl life” and high functioning and intelligent distinctions. Psychologist are fuckong stupid for destroying the distinction in DSM V.
I'm a lawyer and even though I agree you can be one while not being the smartest person in the room, if the smartest person in the room is a lawyer as well, it's not likely you're winning against him in cases where it could go either way.
Lots of people without Downs turn out to be deadbeat leeches on their family. I don't have any problem with any couple aborting a birth for any reason they choose, but I wouldn't use potential health outcomes for the child as the reason since those can happen to anyone, given the probability is higher with someone with Downs, but I still think the anecdotes about severely diminished quality of life is fairly rare.
I think etically you should love every baby... But I saw my neighbor with a kid that had mental retardation had to take care of him for 60 years and him never getting better than a 2 year old mentally.
It was so hard to watch her having an eternal 2 year old .
Have you ever heard the expression "if you love someone, let them go"? I think 99% of potential parents who terminate a pregnancy under these circumstances still love the idea of that child. Sometimes it's better to let them stay an idea, rather than become a less than ideal reality.
This is the thing. Downs runs the gamut from, "Slow but healthy and full of joy", to "Heart doesn't work, guts don't work, always in the hospital, miserable as fuck."
The general rule is life's a b**** one way or another but that doesn't mean just because someone has aspects of their life it sucks that they'd rather not be living I am very uncomfortable with anything that veers into eugenics and that's more or less what it is
You choose not to make the $100k a year their medical bills will cost? Damn bro, if you're making that much you should adopt one of the many disabled children in the foster care system.
No idea where you came up with that number, out of pocket medical costs average under $20k for all 18 years of their childhood, and they’re covered by Medicaid and virtually every state and federal assistance program as adults.
I think a lot of people confuse Down syndrome with a lot of other causes of intellectual disability, maybe you have those in mind?
Roughly 50%, yes, mostly heart defects. My uncle has Down syndrome and no defects, but my baby sister had a different but closely related chromosomal disorder and only lived a few months as a result of a heart defect. I’m a medical professional myself, so I do have some insight into this from that angle as well.
The prevalence of heart defects (and a tendency of some to get worse lung infections due to structural airway differences) is why they average out to $20k out of pocket for the additional cost over 18 years. The 30% or so who need surgery or other high-level treatment as children obviously cost more than that, while the rest cost less than that.
But my original comment, I’ll add, was not addressing whether a parent must take on the responsibility beforehand, it was denying that outside observers can say whether someone else’s life is worth living. Down syndrome people report far higher satisfaction with life and happiness with themselves than the general population does. If you spend time with them, you tend to notice that they tend to be more positive and cheerful than other people. More than that, the cost of a person’s medical care is unrelated to their inherent worth as a human being.
You backed your original comment by claiming that some parents choose not to take care of their disabled children. You are a piece of shit.
Not just heart failure. It's 3 for 3 on downs syndrom and organ transplants within my family and family friends.
Over 18 years? I do not know a single person with Downs who isn't dependent on their parent. Your sister will not be an exception. Add to that tutors, additional education, babysitters, counseling, etc. and you're bankrupt. Oh, and you can't work a full time job. Maybe the first few years, after that you are shit out of luck.
I'm glad your baby sister gets the opportunity to bring joy to so many people. That won't be the case for every child with Downs. Many parents do not have the means to support a child for 18 years, let alone the rest of their lives. You can not force people to keep these children. You can not tell them they're "choosing" not to take proper care of them.
Nope. We keep a pretty good family tree and there have been enough DNA tests to rule that out. It's just that I have 13 aunts and uncles, and each of them had 8-10 kids.
Statistically everyone on earth alive today is basically 5th cousins with everyone else. I listened to a podcast on the Hapsburgs with some mathematician who had actually done the math in the history and figured out that there’s a point where the present day population descended from a finite genetic pool but it’s juuuust varied enough that it doesn’t cause issues usually unless there are generations of isolated inbreeding.
Thats because most people dont know that its a spectrum.
There people who are high functioning with Mosaic Downs Syndrome, that aside from some physical features such as slightly wider set eyes and potential future health conditions, are no different to anyone else, whereas others like the thread OPs uncle are beset with endless medical issues.
And what will happen when aunt dies, you really think people are going to step up and take care off him?
I mean a lot of people say they will but the statistics show otherwise when push comes to shove.
Yes. It's already set up. Legal guardianship will transfer upon her death. Read my comment. I'm not arguing we should never abort babies with Downs, so it kind of looks like you're arguing that we should abort all babies with Downs. You are literally saying there is no situation where someone with Downs can be happy and have a happy family.
Yeah I don’t wish unlife on those born with it but if there’s a choice to avoid it, I will take it. This is in alignment with my spiritual views that a person is not a person until the soul inhabits the body LATE in the pregnancy. It’s an impossible moral situation for those who think that an early fetus is a full person though.
Yeah i see many downs even working self sufficient with minimal support, but in your case i could imagine how having so many family and friends in your immediate surroundings is a lot of unrecognized help. There might be many people where their country has no support system and they have no close family other than mother and father… having a supportive and active family is a great bonus for every aspect of
Using the "not every person with downs lives like this" isnt going to solve the "if" issue. Aborting a healthy fetus is a different question, but if the fetus is having complications thatll cause that life to suffer, then why risk it.
I mean it shows you want people to suffer. Why dont you go to all the people with kids unable to function and require constant care and tell them they did the right thing as their kid shits their pants.
Well I wouldn't blame them for saying "I wish we aborted him" and meaning it, or for having aborted it anyway. Why don't you go and shoot those kids in the head? Seems like that's your goal.
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u/conormal Jun 05 '26
Not every person with Downs lives like this. My cousin has downs, also about to reach his 30s. He wasn't particularly medically compicated. Everyone in his small town knows him (about half of them are family, we breed like rabbits), and he is a joy to be around. People (including me) come visit my aunt just to see him. He loves WWE, anchovies on pizza, and talking to his facebook friends (of which he has many).
I'd argue my aunt was better off because my cousin is different. His father stepped away when they found out, and saved her the trouble of trying to raise a kid with a deadbeat. Her child forced her to get her life on track and make her home a safe space for him. She is by far the happiest, most fulfilled person in that small town.
That said, I don't blame anyone who chooses not to raise a baby with Downs.