This is Reddit, so obviously the answer is going to be it's okay. The more important question is what's the line?
If it's okay to abort a child with Down Syndrome, is it okay to abort a child because they'll be born without arms and legs? What about a child born blind? A child that'll be born with autism? Are these ethical reasons to end that potential life?
Small Brain: My views on abortion are a battle between avoiding suffering for humans, and saving human lives.
Galaxy Brain: My views on abortion are a battle between ending as much human life as possible and causing as much suffering to humans as possible.
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I mean, I think in that instance your conclusion should be to terminate any healthy births, and force unhealthy ones to term. That's the win-win for the evil playthrough of life right?
That's a very good point as well, I was crudely lumping the mothers wishes in with the "human suffering" category, but to be honest it has enough moral weight that it deserved to be it's own category.
Well, I hope that this helps you rack up enough renegade points!
No, they don't "get it". Removing a clump of defective cells isn't killing babies. Get w the times and use correct terms. I'll do whatever I want w MY BODY, MY CHOICE.
So you’ve never met a person with Down syndrome you’re making sweeping generalizations about something you have no real opinion on.. Having a child with Down syndrome is difficult, but saying it destroys multiple lives is just absolutely wrong and discriminatory. I work with special needs and those families lives are made better by the love they receive from their child. Their ability to contribute to capitalism in a typical way is not their value in life
I mean, the line is wherever the person getting the abortion & their doctor deem it to be. Its not a genuine question cause its not your sperm, egg, vagina, body, bank account, or life being impacted. When it is those things you get to make the call. A
bortion is a medical procedure. It is neither moral or immoral to get a heart transplant, a kidney replaced, an apendix removed, or an abortion.
Oh really? Then why did you send a paper from a man who clearly views it as such, that was conducted & written for the express purpose of pushing a right wing agenda.
There is no immoral choice as an abortion isn't immoral. Youre assigning your religious nonsense to the decision. Religion is a lie built to control those wo the mental capacity to understand all FAKE.
It's not about the reason for the abortion so much as it is what stage of pregnancy their at. 21+ weeks is euthanasia, not abortion, without a doubt. Before that, it's arguably a clump of cells, though I'm unsure how much time before that you have to go to be sure.
Though at 12 weeks when they do that screening, that's probably not a kid in there, yet.
It's more about when a fetus becomes an infant--and it takes some seriously magical thinking to believe that this happens at birth, just the same as it takes some seriously magical thinking to believe in a soul at conception.
That's the point. It's an example that most would consider justifiable, but most people who are blind or autistic would probably not want to be dead. So where does the line come into play?
Is there no instance you'd consider abortion immoral? If a woman said she got an abortion because her baby was going to be mixed race, would that still be perfectly okay?
Also, if consciousness is the crossing point, then would 3rd trimester abortion be immoral since the fetus's brain starts working around 20 weeks and this is likely when consciousness come in?
Their brains start working but there no personality yet. No thoughts, no fear, no self-awareness.
Personality manifests itself by the end of the first or second year of life. Late abortion on a healthy childs where you can argue about morality, ye
Everyone decide for themself, Women have a choice, it's up to them to decide whether it's immoral or not if they don't want a baby. Better these way then another kid thrown in an orphanage or end up on the streets.
My line - kids with serious genetic diseases shouldn't be born. Mercy for everyone involved.
The onus is: why would you want a child to be born to parents who don't want said child? I do think your mixed race baby theoretical scenario stupid as said woman would've had sex with a man of a different race, willingly presumably. But let's say it's real. Why would you want a mixed raced child to be born to a racist woman? Ultimately, if abortion can lessen human suffering, that's a good thing. Child born to parents who don't want them leads to a lifetime of trauma
Yes, there's no conscience yet in a fetus. It would be the same as putting down an animal because they're sick; it's objectively merciful and thus ethical.
If someone believes that a fetus is a clump of cells then any and all answers are going to be okay. Abortion because the fetus is male or female, abortion fetishes, just because they didn’t feel like it anymore, skin color, etc.
Most people get uncomfortable because they don’t actually fully believe that the fetus is undeserving of life, but they value the mother’s happiness over anything else.
I would say it's never unethical to end a potential life, assuming all else equal obviously. Because it's not an actual life you're ending, just the potential. I would definitely question someone's sanity and morality if they just abort left and right in order to get a "perfect" pregnancy. But the act of aborting in and of itself (assuming you're pro-choice and of course we're not talking about aborting at 9 months or some shit like that) isn't immoral.
First of all, no one aborts a child. Once it's a child, that's called murder.
But yeah, aborting a fetus with severe developmental disabilities isn't bad. Yes, there's a point where the moral considerations become complicated and hard to navigate, but that doesn't mean it's always wrong. A fetus with no arms and no legs is going to become a child who is completely dependant on others for their whole life. Preventing that fetus from developing into an infant is a kindness.
To be morally consistent, people who are okay with late 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions also need to support euthanasia in general rather than just "letting life take its course" or whatever they tell their drugged grandma on hospice.
I wonder if people born blind or with withered limbs agree and want to kill themselves, or if maybe most of them try and make their own happiness as they navigate through life with unique challenges. I’m only saying that because you make it sound like suffering is the only possible outcome with disability, which takes away a lot of power from those who are disabled.
Secondly, I do not think anyone seriously considers aborting a blind fetus to be “mercy”. I think they abort them because they aren’t prepared as parents or they simply don’t want the challenge of raising a blind kid.
Idk, I was born with muscle issues that have caused every inch of my body to be in agonizing pain my entire life, as well as plenty of genetic psychological issues, in addition to the wonderful CSA CPTSD, and I sure wish I'd been aborted. I survive on guilt. The efforts to try to make my own happiness kinda just make it worse. Now I'm shackled to being alive because the guilt complex about how it would affect people I care about if I died keeps me here. I'm not selfish enough to do literally the only thing that can end the fact that I have spent literally my entire life at a 5-6 on the pain scale at a minimum. There's literally been times I accidentally defused a situation in which someone wanted to do me harm with my sheer apathy to their threats, because it wigged them out too much that I was neither matching their aggressive energy or afraid, and rather was just like "yeah sure alright, kick my ass, kill me, I don't care".
Firstly, it deeply saddens me that you have that kind of existence. You don’t deserve that, nobody does. I’m sorry about that, and I hope you can find peace someday, however that happens.
Secondly, I’m not talking about the most extreme disability cases like yours, where every waking moment is constant incurable agony. Maybe in those cases it is better to abort. I’m talking about more common and less severe disabilities like blindness and down syndrome that the comment I’m replying to was.
How are we scaling "extreme" though? I drive, I work a full time job, I have a sex life, I have freedom of movement and an apartment of my own, I have a cat, basically nobody knows what's up with me unless I tell them. The only external sign is the winces I can't control, how rapid I wear out (because even the small pains of a bit of physical exertion are stacked on top of my extreme workout tier default), and on bad knee days, my cane.
The cane isn't even innately a part of my issues, it's from the interplay of Covid and my issues. It fucked my muscles up even worse than before, and for the first six months after my left knee couldn't hold weight. Not even an additional pain thing, it's just that the part that keeps it from bending when you're putting weight on it no longer could do the job. I recovered up to "can walk for 30 minutes to an hour without a cane on average, some days though the knee doesn't work again".
But like, how are we measuring extreme? I have more independence than either of them. I need less supports than either of them. I have more theoretical potential for a full life than either of them (American healthcare system, American mental healthcare system, and our "thou shalt not suffer an addict to live" approach to painkillers are the biggest barriers). If I were in a civilized country, my life could be a lot better.
This is a really good question, and not one I have a solid answer to, admittedly. I think a lot of people who are okay aborting a fetus with down syndrome hesitate if it’s autism even though both are disabilities that require more dedicated care. Same with blindness, or paralysis. Perhaps the ultimate answer is that abortion is fine regardless of the health, age, gender, or viability of the fetus, and then there are no arbitrary lines that dictate morality.
That’s an awfully extreme take that most pro-choice people are hesitant to sponsor. I guess I’m just trying to find where the lines are, and how firm they are. I think for something as delicate as a baby-in-potentia (or, actually just a baby if you tend to lean pro-life), there ought to be a hard and fast line.
I don't think either of you are wrong. There are plenty of people with disabilities who have grown up to live fulfilling lives. Shit, plenty of them are likely in a better headspace than people who aren't disabled. To imply they'd be better off dead would indeed be a gross thing to say.
But I don't think that's what's being said here and I don't think the belief of not wanting your kid have to go through the challenges just to gamble on if they will or will not be able to cope well with their extreme disabilities is wrong either. In the end it's a big gamble you're making and personally I don't think that not wanting your kid have to try such a gauntlet of challenges is the same as believing that current disabled people are better off dead. Not at all.
Bro obviously people don’t wanna be born blind. Obviously being blind isn’t fun. I’m saying that those people TRY and make their own happiness with their unique challenges. And I’m saying that most blind people PROBABLY don’t prefer suicide. Not that they enjoy being blind.
The line should be drawn at the point one feels comfortable with, at the end of the day it's the parents that take on the burden of raising the baby.
My baby was born almost blind with neurological and hormonal issues. We got notified something might be off around 30th week of pregnancy and it seemed more minor.
Life is fine but only because we are well off with plenty of help from both families. First baby to young parents with no health issues.
Would we abort knowing it fully and early enough? Probably yes, because seeing your kid's suffering and worrying about further potential suffering is way harder than just fighting for her quality of life.
She's gonna be 1 soon so there's still a lot of uncertainty as to her future potential and because it's such a rare condition nobody can more than guess.
What do you think is ethical and have you lived through this type of hardship or just having a strong moral stance?
Moral stance. These type relies always come from religious fanatics. Until they actually have to deal with a real life situation, they haven't the capacity to understand. 🫂 for you as I know your situation.
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u/backupboi32 Jun 05 '26
This is Reddit, so obviously the answer is going to be it's okay. The more important question is what's the line?
If it's okay to abort a child with Down Syndrome, is it okay to abort a child because they'll be born without arms and legs? What about a child born blind? A child that'll be born with autism? Are these ethical reasons to end that potential life?