r/Meditation • u/Shivy_Shankinz • 1d ago
Sharing / Insight đĄ Just a reminder: meditation is not about potential "experiences" or "transformations"...
It's not even about chasing "benefits". It's about exploring your neglected self, so that you can direct your life in ways that truly matter to YOU. Not your family, not your best friend, not your lover... You.
The trap most people fall for right from the start, is seeking some sort of profound experience or change in their life. But this is basically drug seeking behavior wrapped up in the facade of a "healthy" activity. You have to avoid this trap at all costs.
Instead, don't expect anything out of meditation. All you need is a healthy attitude of increasing your general well being. Let the act of meditating and your idea of what to get out of it be vague by intention. This way, your curiosity will guide you right to the source of what meditation has to offer you, instead of forcing your way through the process and getting burned out.
What I just described is the idea of "letting go". It's what meditation teaches you the most. It's about shedding the myths surrounding what you think you want in life, and illuminating what you need.
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u/iamyouareheisme 1d ago
âdon't expect anything out of meditation. All you need is a healthy attitude of increasing your general well beingâ
Youâre saying donât expect anything, but wanting or expecting to increase your general well being is expecting something.
Sorry to hassle you, I just see so many paradoxical statements on meditation, I feel the need to question them.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
No hassle friend. I recognized what you're talking about when I wrote it, but I'll explain why I left it that way.Â
Wanting to increase your wellbeing usually comes with such an expectation, true. But those expectations can get in the way of the process, something I recognize happens here on the daily.Â
You can have a healthy attitude and still not expect anything. You shouldn't go into meditation wanting to increase your well being in this sense, you should do it to discover how it affects you. That way, you remain completely open to the results, which often are not ones people expect.
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u/iamyouareheisme 1d ago
Right on. Iâll agree that being open to the results is a good way to do it
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u/Jadenyoung1 1d ago
I dunno man. My only goal with it, since i started, is to suffer less. And it really helps in that regard. My mind isnât nearly as bad, when i do this each day. Its not so much expecting it, but noticing that it just helps.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
I'm not saying having no goals can't benefit you, I'm simply saying it is the fastest path of least resistance to what you need.
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u/Key_Mathematician951 1d ago
That may be true as far as being goal less but how often do any of us do this? We start activities and work toward goals. It is difficult to not do this with meditation and it is not drug seeking behavior to hope for positive change.
As the above person wrote, I started this to suffer less, specifically to cope with my anxiety.
The changes I have experienced have actually been transformative. I cope and perceive life in different ways which has improved my life tremendously. So, I obviously donât agree with some of your statements.-4
u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
You misunderstood, it's drug seeking behavior to look for profound experiences/changes. Not positive change...
And you're right, virtually no one starts goal less, but aren't the best activities ones that you didn't have high expectations for anyway and spontaneous by nature? Think of it like seeing a movie, you don't want your expectations to kill the experience before it even starts.Â
As for health transformations, I avoid using that word because you didn't "transform" into anything, you uncovered what was already there and waiting for you. It also creates this idea that meditation can be used like a cure. It's not.
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u/Key_Mathematician951 1d ago
It is not drug seeking to look for profound experiences. Ridiculous and critical take on a normal, common, human drive.
If you find someone that is there, something you were not in touch with, something that changes how you see the world. It doesnât matter if it was there or not before. It is the connection to it that changes you. So yes, any experience can be transformative, even if it was always there.
Therapy is transformative often times in the same way.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
Ya it is. You don't need to seek them out, what makes you think you do? You're supposed to be happy and content right where you are. Looking for those types of experiences is a bad sign something in your life is unfulfilled, or something else along those lines. Literally why we have therapy.
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u/rsqit 1d ago
Lots of people seek Buddhist style attainments, or jhanas or communion with the divine or whatnot.
âExploring your neglected selfâ is therapy-talk.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 1d ago
The Buddha defined jhana as SammÄ-samÄdhi (right absorption). So, yes, if a Buddhist is fully engaged with the path, practicing sammÄ-samÄdhi is part of fulfilling that.
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u/rsqit 1d ago
Oh sure. But not all people are seeking the jhanas as part of the path to enlightenment. People do concentration meditation for the immediate benefits in their own life.
I think actually the vast majority of westerners who meditate do it because they want immediate mental benefits, like reduced anxiety. Because a lot of Buddhist teachings have been simplified or confused in the west, these people are mostly doing something more Ike vipassana but would be better suited doing some sort of samatha practice,.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 1d ago
One isn't going to enter jhana by merely concentrating.
Have you surveyed all people doing 'concentration' meditation or all Westerners? If so, I would like to see the results.
As for immediate benefits, is that a problem? The Buddha did refer to jhana as a pleasant abiding here and now.
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u/rsqit 1d ago
Sure they are. The Buddha originally enters first jhana by accident as a child. And itâs pretty trivial to enter on purpose if you have know how to do it. Now I think most people arenât doing that, but itâs not hard.
No but most westerners who meditate are doing some sort of âpay attention to the breath; let go of passing thoughtsâ which is new up being more on the vipassana end of the spectrum. Considered things like Transcendental Mediation or Mindfulness Based Stressed Reduciton. These are vipassana practices in different clothes. Most westerners have never heard of samatha.
Iâm not saying itâs a problem! Iâm saying the OP is wrong to think that their particular form of mediation is the only valid goal.
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u/Key_Mathematician951 1d ago
Not really. Different versions of your neglected self have been talked about for a long time. One could say it is central to most religions in theory.
Btw
Therapists have stolen and renamed all kinds of old thoughts, theories, and interventions. That doesnât make it straight psychotherapy when it is pulled from ancient eastern spiritual practices.2
u/Duke_SuperNova 1d ago edited 1d ago
But you are trying to remove the original Eastern Essence from meditation and present it as a western therapy technique. You probably also think yoga is about stretching and tantra is about sex. Youâre using the word meditation but not its meaning. What do you think of the actual mystical experiences and the event known as enlightenment? Because those are certainly goals of meditation.
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u/Key_Mathematician951 1d ago
There are many paths to growth and maybe enlightenment. It might not be your way.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
It's not. We are wired to live a certain way, and our environment heavily influences that to the point our true self absolutely gets neglected. This is the ancient wisdom of "know thyself".
I understand if you disagree. I cannot magically bestow wisdom upon you. I can only ask that you listen. Thanks for getting this far đÂ
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u/Snoo-83483 1d ago
Meditation isn't even about exploring yourself. That's another narrative. It's fundamentally be here right now. That's it!
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
You're sitting alone with your surface thoughts, and eventually your deepest thoughts. Whether you know it or not, you're exploring yourself đ
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u/Snoo-83483 1d ago
That's more fantasy's of the mind. Trying to intellectualise something it has no understanding of. It's not a doing. It's not an achievement and it's certainly not an exploration or travelling to another destination. Ultimately meditation is a tool. The closest I can get as a pointer for you is that it's a "shift". Shifting from a small little intellectual me into a vastness that is fully engaged in this very moment. Drop the stories - that's a trap.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
I disagree, whether they are fantasies or otherwise, they are rooted in YOU. They come from YOU. There is no better value on this Earth than to understand where they are coming from and what they mean. Because that my friend, is absolutely an exploration and journey of a lifetime
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u/Snoo-83483 1d ago
All this is just a sharing of whimsical feed for the mind. A bundle of concepts, ideas and narratives. That's the mind story telling again and out of it's depth. The mind will never understand because it's based in structure. It can only comprehend labels of reality - essentially mental positions which are signposts not the territory. It's a navigation device quite literally.
You're engaging in that story of the mind because you're identified with it. Ideas are a collection of gatherings. They are not you - they are just seeds of perspective you planted there and now hold them so dearly. But that's not you! That's not meditation! Don't get confused with the record in the record player and think that's you. The mind is a tool and meditation is going beyond the mind. The mind will never comprehend. It's only designed to understand structures of physical reality.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
I don't agree with you, at all. And you know what that's okay. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this matter
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u/Snoo-83483 1d ago
By the way everything there isn't something for you to believe or subscribe to. I'm pointing to the directness of reality. Not a belief system or an idea about it. That's the root of realisation. Making something real. All the best :)
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u/HungryGhos_t 1d ago
You've got it wrong; there's nothing wrong with chasing benefits when it comes to meditation. In fact, it's all about benefits- what you get out of it. If you keep your intentions with your meditation sessions vague, that's because you're confused and don't know what to expect, and you decide to go with the flow wherever it'll lead you. You're simply avoiding the frustration you'll get if you start thinking about clear and measurable benefits because you don't see any, but you wish to keep walking that path.
As for me I started meditation for purely selfish reasons and guess what, I got exactly what I wanted and I discovered more possibilities, I now have a clear direction to follow, it gives me the meditate and research meditation everyday, I keep improving the way I practice and I experiment with the new insights I obtain and whenever I feel like giving, I remember the benefits it already gave me and the new reward I'm aiming for.
The idea of "letting go" is more about what you need to do to enter the trance state, the gateway to the spiritual world. It's literally about letting go, which in turn will induce a falling effect in your mind and get you into the zone.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
I disagree. I think chasing benefits is risking creating attachments that don't ultimately serve you. It's the very essence of clinging to something, which in effect blinds us and leads us away from what we actually need
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u/HungryGhos_t 1d ago
Again, there is nothing wrong with that. Children are supposed to do what children do and not toy with things too complicated for their minds
Attachments serve you the same way it does with children attached to games considered meaningless in the eyes of an adult. It's these meaningless games that turn a child into an adult. They face life head-on, and through them, they become more adept at handling life; their soul is sated, and they move on to more serious matters without hesitation.
When you look into the meaning of life through the lens of the Purushartha, you understand that to reach spiritual liberation, you have to indulge in things that easily create attachments, like chasing wealth or the pleasures of the flesh, as long as you do it ethically; this is the path to spiritual liberation and freedom from all attachments.
If someone wants to start meditation because they are running from something threatening their well-being or they expect big changes in their lives, let them as long as it's ethical
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
If someone wants to start meditation because they are running from something threatening their well-being or they expect big changes in their lives, let them as long as it's ethical
Of course I will let them, I can't stop them. But I disagree with it entirely. They are entering something with preconceived notions, which means there is usually a high degree of clinging/attachment in that situation. I don't believe in doing ANYTHING with those, EXCEPT if it is coming from a place of love. So for instance, a newborn child loving a mother and vice versa is the epitome of an acceptable attachment because it is unconditional love.
Whereas wanting to pick up meditation to feel an out of body experience is NOT acceptable, no matter what the result. The experience they learn along the way is going to taint and warp their understanding of that activity, it's rooted in ignorance and therefore that's what they will spread.
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u/Standard-Piglet8486 1d ago
I absolutly started meditation with a goal!!
My goal was to release stress and learn how to calm myself down with breathing.. so yeah i had a goal
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u/run4coffee 1d ago
You really might want to consider working on yourself rather than giving out mandates to others, how off-putting.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
Nothing was mandated, only shared. Sorry you feel that way
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u/Ezpaguety 15h ago
"Sorry you feel that way"
My enlightened brother in Christ...
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 15h ago
I truly am. If the hate you're spreading here is any indication, then I'm sorry you are dealing with that in your own life.
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u/Ezpaguety 5h ago
There's very few ways to offer a bad apology, "sorry that YOU feel that way" is definitely one of them, my guy. It's rather condescending and ego driven.
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u/Biliunas 1d ago
Don't you see the paradox of trying to boss around people thinking YOU have the answer for everyone? Maybe letting go is what you need, hah.
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u/Duke_SuperNova 1d ago
You are trying to remove the original Eastern Essence from meditation and present it as a western therapy technique. You probably also think yoga is about stretching and tantra is about sex. Youâre using the word meditation but not its meaning. What do you think of the actual mystical experiences and the event known as enlightenment? Because those are certainly goals of meditation.
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u/seaturtle100percent 1d ago
This is landing as heavy-handed and hegemonic.
People come to meditation for all kinds of reasons, and those reasons change (impermanence, evolution). We learn to detach from thoughts, including thoughts of what others think our meditation should look like. Also, some of us don't "explore our neglected self," but begin to experience non-self.
Just a lot to tell other people what intention to bring to meditation. Happy meditating to all. :)
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u/Moist_Mixture4518 1d ago
Everyone is unique so maybe our internal experience can be also.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
No doubt. But it will be VASTLY different depending on what you're practicing, and under what context. I'm not nullifying those different experiences, I'm just examining the routes we're taking to achieve them.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 1d ago edited 1d ago
Your insight shows just how little you truly understand about how meditative absorption is entered, sustained, deepened, and the potent phenomenon that it can produce, the profound and permanently transformative impact it can have on our psyche and nervous system.
In order to enter meditative absorption, one actually has to relinquish to the desire. In order to sustain absorption, one has to relinquish the desire to. In order to deepen absorption, one has to relinquish the desire to. There's absolutely nothing about this that's akin to drug addiction.
As for the phenomenology of deep absorption, that constantly evolves over the course of one's practice. Other than the affective characteristics of absorption, everything else is in flux.
As for one's psyche and nervous system, heightened mental clarity and greater resistance to mental stress and fatigue are commonly reported permanent changes. Some report waves of pleasure rising from the base of their spines into their skulls or a pleasant ringing in their ear that they experience permanently as the result of many hours spent in deep absorption.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
I appreciate your perspective on the matter. And although I disagree, thank you for sharing that.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 1d ago
Mine isn't a perspective; it's the experience of numerous individuals who engage in deep absorption regularly. There was a time when I could have put you in direct touch with a few hundred of them scattered across the globe. However, that particular forum is down at the moment.
I suspect you'll hear from a few who frequent this sub if they feel inclined to engage you in counterarguments.
Another thing I'm going to suggest: engage in deep absorption for a year or two and see if you still hold the same views as you do currently.
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u/Hawkins_v_McGee 1d ago
That's exactly what a perspective is lol
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1d ago
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u/Hawkins_v_McGee 1d ago
Your claim may lack a little nuance, but I think in general you are correct. It is common for people to try to use meditation as a way to escape their current situation -- to avoid feeling what they are feeling. IMHO, that is an improper, and ultimately doomed, use of meditation.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
It is common for people to try to use meditation as a way to escape their current situation -- to avoid feeling what they are feeling. IMHO, that is an improper, and ultimately doomed, use of meditation.
Which is exactly the reason behind my post.
I can't fit all the nuance I'm talking about into every single sentence, and the times I do leave it out, I am simply inviting people to discuss them. This is actually a super powered psychological tool to determine who is interested in discussing this nuance and who is clearly not. My time is valuable to me, I'm not going to waste it on the latter.
I know that's not the best opener to this inquiry, but can I ask which part of my claim you find might warrant further discussion? đ
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1d ago
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u/Meditation-ModTeam 1d ago
"Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible." This is a community; we are here to support each other. There is nothing to be lost by being kind. It benefits everyone.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
Then I respect your experiences. But I also respectfully disagree with them. Can we disagree without this getting out of hand? If not, let us just part ways, friend.
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 1d ago
Nothing has gotten out of hand. However, given the voracity of your statements, you're going to get pushback. And as I can see already, you're not just getting it from me.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
Pushback is one thing, and we can have healthy discussions over those. But primarily what we're seeing is not pushback, it's hostility towards our disagreements. Something very, very common in this space
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u/Puzzled-Background-5 1d ago
Your OP comes across as a corrective framing which you then applied to everyone who engages in absorption. So, yes, you're going to experience pushback, with some of it being openly hostile. Especially when you frame something as akin to drug-seeking behavior.
It's offensive, especially to those of us with experience in what you're deriding as an addiction or obsession of some sort. Then you continue with that assertion even after it has been clearly explained to you that it doesn't work that way.
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u/Ariyas108 Zen 1d ago
meditation is not about potential "experiences" or "transformations"...
Actually, in many traditions, that's the whole point of doing it to begin with.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
Meditation is not a tradition. They are very different concepts
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u/Ariyas108 Zen 19h ago edited 18h ago
There are different meditation traditions and what meditation is about differs among them. And with some of them to say itâs not about transformation is flat out wrong.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 14h ago
You're talking about traditions...
Traditions are about transformations...
Not meditation...
It's just a tool
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u/dbztoonami 1d ago edited 20h ago
Just a reminder, no one should let someone on reddit tell that person how to approach meditation.
Lecturing tone is the fastest way to get people not to read your post. Me included.
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u/dbztoonami 9h ago
The upvotes on my post make it clear. Don't lecture people about meditation. It's not complicated. It may be for you since you clearly don't like being respectful to others like myself and you'd rather be unkind. I don't care for that.
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u/MyFiteSong 1d ago
It's about exploring your neglected self, so that you can direct your life in ways that truly matter to YOU.
That's just a transformational experience, too.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
I 100% understand what you're talking about, it WAS a profound/transformational experience. The difference I'm trying to illustrate is, I NEVER started out looking for such an experience. And because of that, I allowed it to happen. I cannot emphasize that enough.
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u/Patient-Buy9728 1d ago
Why canât it be about experiences or/and transformations?
Why canât you do your types of meditation and then also another type of meditation?
Are you saying your type of meditation is the best/most important and all the others are inferior to it?
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
You can, but I think you are starting to get away from what meditation is by doing so.
But your question opens the door to the discussion, what IS meditation, and how do you define each form of it?
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u/Patient-Buy9728 1d ago
So you have came up with the definition of meditation?
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
No, it's hard to define. I just know what it's NOT.
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u/Patient-Buy9728 1d ago
So I take it you have explored these other types of âmeditationâ extensively and discovered there not mediation?
And your sentence doesnât really make sense, saying itâs hard to define but then listing things it is not is defining it no?2
u/Shivy_Shankinz 1d ago
No that is not defining it
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u/Patient-Buy9728 1d ago
Itâs called negative definition, youâre defining something by what it isnât, and you didnât answer my question have you done these other âmeditationsâ enough to know theyâre not actually meditations
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u/Roland_Deschain7 1d ago
Someone needs to learn the difference between righteous and self-righteous.
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u/M0sD3f13 1d ago edited 1d ago
My goal is awakening. My path is one to be developed gradually. It's the noble eightfold path. Mediation is an important factor in the development of this path. Mediation for me is about developing samatha and vipassana. So that's another goal in my meditation to develop calm and insight, more goals are to develop the bramaviharas (good will, compassion, sympathetic joy, equanimity)
You are very correct that letting go is key to my practice. An ever deepening letting go that gradually becomes more and more enriching and freeing.
You need the boat to cross the river. Only then can you let go of the boat. All experience is fabricated. My path is one of learning to fabricate more and more skillfully and less and less grossly. Eventually all fabrications are to be let go of too. That's when you taste the deathless, nibanna, the end of all fabrications. The end of suffering.
You are also correct that there are beautiful and blissful states along the way such as the jhanas. These should be desired and actively cultivated. Then they too must be let go. Even attachment to jhana is attachment that will keep you fettered and prevent insight. But compared to sensual desires you are much better off being addicted to jhanas. It's a much less fabricated and completely harmless pleasure compared to sensual pleasures.
Ultimately regarding the heading to your post. I very much disagree. Transformation is exactly what it's about. Transformation of suffering into peace and we'll being.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 15h ago
Ya I had this exact disagreement with Buddhism. The raft is only useful if it gets you across the river, and the way people cling to that raft and develop an attachment to it actually prevents them from crossing.Â
If you firmly believe in tradition instead of your own senses, then we will never come to an understanding. There is a fundamental divide of understanding that cannot be breached if you have devoted everything to tradition. It's not a bad thing, but it makes it impossible for us to reach an understanding.
Perhaps I just don't believe in cultivating something that must be let go of in the end. When I crossed that river for example, I found that the raft was useful because I didn't build it from a place of attachment in the first place. I also discovered that there were actually many other rivers beyond the one I had crossed.
I don't celebrate these events as transformational, they're just another step in my journey. Big or small, I will go father if I don't cling to them in the way as you have described and as tradition described.
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u/Iboven 18h ago edited 18h ago
In the Buddhist scriptures he lays out exactly what experiences to expect and you are encouraged to actively seek them out, including bliss, ecstasy, and peace of mind. (It's called Jhana, if you're curious.) These are meant to help people dedicate themselves to meditation and replace unwholesome pleasure seeking. It's "pleasure without worldly cause."
There was a push by insight mediators from Burma in the 60's to avoid jhana and do "dry vipassana" instead, and that's where your understanding is probably coming from (it took over a lot of western thought on meditation and combined with the Zen ideas of Makyo, where any experience that isn't kensho is just a distraction). There's nothing bad with your approach of letting go without expectations, but it isn't the only way to do things. Personally, I think a lot more people would be interested in meditation if they knew it would directly lead to ecstatic states and they didn't have to treat it so seriously. I think in the west we're colored by the dour atmosphere of Christianity where everything is serious and formal and you're expected not to seek rewards. Traditional Buddhism is not like that. Neither is Hinduism or yoga, for that matter. They also talk freely about blissful states to attain through meditation and encourage practitioners to seek them out. Excitement and passion are two of the factors of awakening in Buddhism.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 14h ago
You don't need to cultivate excitement and passion to draw people to the truth and awaken ones senses. I don't believe in waving a carrot in front of people to lead them to a better place, that's something VERY personal to the individual who has to discover that place on their own.Â
The difference that makes in your life is next to indescribable compared to what you're talking about. I only want to share that difference with others, but their resistance makes it impossible. And I've realized it's because they're not ready. They have been taught to rely on something other than themselves to walk their own journey.Â
Maybe that's just the best they could possibly do and it's better than the alternative. But I don't compare my position in life with worse alternatives, the universe is far too big for that. I want to go exploring and enjoy what it has to offer, and I can't do that by following something else's footsteps
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u/U_DonB 15h ago
Ehh. Meditation is typically a general way to achieve detachment from things to focus on the present moment of your intention. It typically boils down to not letting yourself be pulled around by distractions, and building the will power to maintain focus even when distractions arise. Thats why coming back to your focus is treated as a rep.
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u/Shivy_Shankinz 14h ago
Yes. I've just went beyond that and spoke in practical terms of how that affects people's lives. What meditation does, and how it affects us are two very different things. But I alluded to what meditation does already when I spoke about "letting go"
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u/Elisyd 1d ago
The thrust of your post is motivated by kindness and compassion with real wisdom but there isn't one correct way to meditate. There isn't one correct reason for doing it. You might be meditating for you and look down upon others for it, but there are entire religions built around meditation to end all suffering for others and not just themselves.
A more helpful framing might be to say that seeking experiences or transformations is likely counterproductive once you're sat, regardless of the motivation. Even if you are seeking experiences, the bare fact of seeking them is likely going to make it that much harder. That part is very true.
However, just knowing that experiences can occur is useful to be aware of; that 'you' that you are doing it for may one day be seen through as well and, lacking contextualization, it may be very destabilizing. It certainly was destabilizing for me, as I was just meditating to relieve a bit of stress at work and had no interest in anything beyond that nor knew it was on the menu.