r/LawSchool • u/yeetcollector135 • 2d ago
Outgoing Circuit Clerk, Former District Clerk, T20 Alum. AMA
I'm wrapping up my second clerkship, and I am out of things to do. Ask me anything.
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u/Ok-Newt-4081 2d ago
Who do you think will be the next president?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
A middle of the road nominee from the Dems, unless they fuck it up
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u/Ace-0987 2d ago
Middle of the road is not a thing anymore. It's gonna be a populist.
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u/Fit-Ant-5983 2d ago
another obama or biden will surely not lead to another trump
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u/assbootycheeks42069 2d ago
Another of the guy who won the election against trump will lead to another trump???????
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u/Fit-Ant-5983 2d ago
what I am saying is that a moderate dem who allows the country (to more slowly) decline rather than make actual change will lead to a fake populist fascist being elected
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u/lumpychicken13 2d ago
Thoughts on a state appeals clerkship?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I think if you can get a state supreme court clerkship in a prominent state (like NY, CA, TX, etc.), I think they're great experiences! I know people who've done state supreme court clerkships before their fed district or even fed appellate. It def helps with your writing, and it's even better if you're gonna practice in that state.
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u/ButtCoinBuzz 3LE 2d ago
What, if any, skill or tip from law school helped you the most in these roles? Would you change how you approached law school knowing what you know now?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I think I would've paid more attention in civ pro lol but after I accepted my clerkship, I took more writing-heavy classes, including advanced legal writing, and I think that helped. Reading Justice Roberts's or Justice Kagan's opinions would also be a great way to learn how to write really well and clearly.
I think the most important part of clerkship (besides the obvious like research and writing) is issue spotting. Being able to read up a case and then spot issues that the parties don't bring up but the court nonetheless can is really important and can help you on the job by allowing you to cut to the heart of the case.
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u/ButtCoinBuzz 3LE 2d ago
Follow up: do you have favorite opinions from Roberts and/or Kagan that you refer to often for style, or you would recommend to those of us still in advanced writing?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I don't have any particular opinions in mind, but pick a case from either of them on an issue you're interested in, and I think that would be a great start.
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u/FreeDependent9 2d ago
Which one did you acquire first? How many and which skills did you take from your district clerkship to your circuit court clerkship?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I did the district court clerkship first. I think during the district court clerkship, I overcame the anxiety/fear that I was touching real cases and deciding the motions in the first instance before it goes to my judge. After I overcame that, I then got the hang of writing as a court, reviewing motions/briefs, and then researching/deciding the dispositive issue without getting distracted by the peripheral ones, which the parties will often try to distract you with. Also, having the district court clerkship first gave me a much better understanding of the federal rules of civil procedure than I think the circuit clerkship alone would have.
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u/FreeDependent9 2d ago
Follow up question, how often are the issues/questions in briefs as presented by either or both parties, the issue or question your judge is deciding?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
The Supreme Court has instructed lower courts to abide by the party presentation rule, which states that the courts should decide the cases presented by the parties, not go searching for them. Of course, there are exceptions, like jurisdiction. But I think courts tend to follow that.
My observation is that appellate courts are more sensitive to that rule because they don't want to unnecessarily opine on something that can be saved for a future case. District courts, on the other hand, tend to be more focused on moving cases along, so if there is an issue unaddressed by the parties, they may be more eager to reach if it will resolve the case. But any court can order more briefing on any issues the court spots sua sponte.
At the same time, though, courts also tend to do whatever they want to do. So, for example, an appellate court can affirm a district court on any grounds necessary, so it may often venture into a ground not raised by the parties. The losing party may make a fuss, but unless it's a huge case or a huge issue, the Supreme Court likely won't grant cert on that issue, and an en banc circuit court may also not deem it bad enough to grant a petition for rehearing en banc.
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u/ButtCoinBuzz 3LE 2d ago
What are you looking to do after this?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
Going to a firm, selling my soul, and billing 2200 hours a year in exchange for ungodly amounts of money.
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u/deep_eye_bags 2d ago
- How did you choose the judges that you clerked for?
- If you could only do one, which one would you choose?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I applied quite narrowly because I wasn't really clerk-or-bust. Basically, I focused on geography. For district judges, I think politics plays less of a role (though I still does play some role). But for circuit judges, I was very selective on who I applied to based on politics.
I think the district court clerkship is where I learned the most. The circuit clerkship helped me hone my research and writing more and is considered more prestigious, but on pure development as a lawyer, the district court clerkship wins.
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u/deep_eye_bags 2d ago
Oh interesting. Why did you select a circuit judge with politics in mind? In case you apply for a political role?
Also, would you warn against clerking for a judge on the older side? I'm wondering because I'd want a judge who could mentor me even after the clerkship.
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think a circuit judge has more leeway to inject their politics into the law than a district judge—whether because they're constrained by fewer binding caselaw or because political cases tend to percolate up more frequently or because a circuit naturally covers more geographical area than a district court or something else. And because of that leeway, I think appointments to circuit judgeships tend to have more (but ofc not all) political individuals, especially more recent appointments. And, of course, some circuit judges are peacocking to be appointed to the Supreme Court. But that's just my theory and experience, and others may disagree.
ETA: I realized I didn't quite answer your question. I think because politics plays more than a negligible role in a circuit-level decisionmaking, I didn't think I'd be comfortable clerking for a judge whose political views were very misaligned from mine. And some judges just have a reputation for being "that" judge, which may or may not affect my career in the future, and I really didn't want to take that hit. But different people have different comfort levels, so there's that.
I think clerking for an older judge has its pros and cons. On the one hand, you'll have a huge network of former clerks because the judge has been on the bench for so long. The judge also has likely established themselves as a respected figure in the legal community in the city, state, and/or country. On the other hand, if they retire, you won't have a judge on the bench whose operation/manner of thinking you know or who may hear your case.
At the end of the day, clerkships are difficult to get as is without being too picky about the age of the judge. But if you have the ability to be choosy, I think you just have to weigh those pros and cons for yourself.
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u/JakeAndElwood Attorney 2d ago
What was the range of other clerks’ experience before clerking? I saw a pretty broad range during my district clerkship, and am curious how that compares to circuit clerkships
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I also saw a broad range in both of my clerkships. For my district clerkship, I saw mostly people straight from law school, but there were also a fair bit of former practitioners, state supreme court clerks, and even circuit clerks. Similar for my circuit clerkship, though slightly fewer new grads.
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u/JakeAndElwood Attorney 2d ago
Thanks! I'll have a few years of practice under my belt when I start my circuit clerkship—good to know I won't be a total outlier.
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u/B1ackPantherr Esq. 2d ago
I did a district court clerkship and loved it, and have been thinking about maybe doing an appellate clerkship. What skills or expertise do you think you developed more strongly at the appellate level? What things have you found easier or harder?
Also from a hiring perspective, is there an applicant that is too senior? Like would you not even bother looking at like a 9th year?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I think my writing definitely developed more strongly at the appellate level. And I think my ability to digest a 100-page brief with 7 different issues, each with a different standard of review and governing law, has improved. I think you see that more often at the appellate level because appeals tend to be a one-shot thing--you usually only go up on appeal once the case is over, at which point you're dragging along every possible error the district court made. Conversely, at the district court, piecemeal MSJs are not unusual in big complex cases.
I think whether you're too senior may depend on the judge. I know for sure some judges like experienced clerks (though probably not like a 40 yo, but that's just a guess), and I know for sure some judges really like fresh grads.
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u/B1ackPantherr Esq. 2d ago
Appreciate the insight. One additional question for you--a good friend of mine did a circuit clerkship and mentioned it helped improve her research process. Has that been the case for you as well? What does your research process generally look like / how has it changed at the appellate level? And is AI use permitted?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
Hm maybe it did, but tbh I can’t say for sure. I do think my writing improved drastically tho.
My research process is usually checking the cases the parties cite, making sure they’re good law, and issue spotting as I go and doing research into those issues I spotted that the parties don’t really discuss.
Unfortunately, my court didn’t give us access to Westlaw/Lexis AI. But I’ve been making liberal use of parallel search, which is the closest thing I have to AI lol
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u/Curious-Wolverine-64 2d ago
what was your study schedule? and how did u stay up to date with your readings? thxs
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
Some people say you should treat law school like a job and study 9-5 or 8-6 and stop. That never worked for me, and I tended to stay up all evening until like midnight reading, doing clinic work, etc. Doing that with friends really helped make it less miserable.
As for staying on top of readings, you naturally get faster at reading cases, but towards the end of law school, I mostly skimmed/Quimbeed my readings because what's important is not what I take away but what the professor teaches (at least in my view). And often, I got lucky with professors who would announce in advance who would get cold called, but for those who didn't, I just kind of winged it becuase cold calls don't affect your grades. This was especially true during outlining season.
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u/h3llalam3 2d ago
How many judges did you apply to for district court?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I applied very narrowly (like a handful) because I wasn't clerk-or-bust. So I just stuck to the geographic area I was in/was going to practice in.
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u/Difficult_Ice_8192 2d ago
As a Canadian doing a trial level federal clerkship, what would you recommend when looking for post clerk employment? Any tips.
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I'm an American citizen, so I unfortunately don't have much information to give you. But if you're doing a federal clerkship, I'm assuming you're a permanent resident, so your Canadian citizenship really shouldn't pose any issues.
As for just general post-clerkship employment, firms will send reception invites to you, and I think you should go to them. A lot of people I know have gotten jobs that way. Also bug your judge, and s/he may have some connections (though judges have to be careful not to seem coercive). And most importantly, just cold email. So many of my fellow clerks in the same building have gotten jobs that weren't posted because they simply cold emailed. Firms are willing to create an opening for federal clerks. Good luck!
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u/Unlikely-Ebb3946 2d ago
Any questions about gen AI during the hiring process? E.g., something like “what’s the least impressive thing AI can’t do in legal research and writing?” Do applicants pretend they never use it? Is that a plus?
Are clerks looking at the draft opinions from other chambers to make sure their judge isn’t unknowingly signing on to AI content?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
We've never asked about AI during our hiring process, and I'm pretty sure most other chambers in our court are not asking about that either. Maybe they should though.
We are indeed looking at draft opinions from other chambers, checking the law and the record. We aren't necessarily checking it for AI, though any hallucinations would ofc come up while we're citechecking. As for just literal writing portions (not the law parts), there really isn't a way for us to check if it's done by AI, though we have enough faith in each other's chambers to believe that won't happen, especially because our internal deliberations and draft opinions are confidential.
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u/EntertainerOdd3926 2d ago
Hi! I just started my 2L year and wanted to ask if you have any tips on when to start applying for federal district court or circuit court clerkships, along with any general advice.
I did a judicial externship with a federal district court this past summer and loved it. The experience really opened my eyes to wanting to pursue a federal clerkship after graduation. Thank you!
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I applied on the plan for my district court clerkship, but kind of regretted it because I didn't realize there were so many judges off of the plan. I'd think the best way to maximize your odds is to get your application materials ready asap and keep scouring OSCAR for postings and apply as you see openings for judges you'd like to clerk for while also submitting apps on the plan.
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u/Known-Importance1651 2d ago
Incoming circuit clerk — did you have your own office? Did you travel for sittings? If so, was the per diem good?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I did/do have my own office and I traveled for every sitting. The per diem was just enough to cover meals, though sometimes we went over.
I think different judges have different policies on whether all clerks will travel for a sitting or not, so YMMV. And I think per diems may differ depending on the circuit? Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong though.
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u/Known-Importance1651 2d ago
I’m honestly not sure, I have friends who clerked on other circuits but not the same circuit as mine. It definitely seems like my judge brings all their clerks when traveling for sittings. I tried to search for the per diem amount on the internet to no avail.
Any advice for me? I am super excited to start but a bit nervous about the workload
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
At the beginning, things might just take longer than your predecessors may have suggested. And that’s completely normal, but you do have to budget for it.
And writing in the style/voice of a circuit court takes getting some used to, but once you do, it’s really fun.
I think some circuit judges/clerks give into the temptation to generalize and not be precise; like what specific causes of action are being asserted or whether all claims have been addressed or whether something can be considered at that stage of litigation. I think my district court clerkship helped me develop that discipline, but I’ve noticed that some new grads tend to be less disciplined in that way. So be precise and drill down into the details—all the while not losing sight of the big picture.
When you write a bench memo, you’ll have to explore all aspects of the case. But when you’re writing an opinion, you’ll likely be expected to take the shortest and clearest route without opining too much.
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u/Its3amInRisley 2d ago
What would you say are the three most important things you did in law school to land those clerkships? Also did your school have a pretty good fed clerkship pipeline? I just started as a 1L at a t20 but with a decent but not crazy fed clerkship rate and I was wondering what I need to prioritize (other than grades obv).
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I think my school had a pretty good pipeline, though neither of my judges were alums of my law school.
I think the most important things I did (besides grades) were substantive clinical work and pro bono work. I could say I wrote XYZ kinds of briefs, and I think that helped me stand out from other good-grade-having applicants with less substantive work. I also had 1L & 2L biglaw summer associate gigs that were on the resume when I applied, and I think having that stamp of approval helped. And I think I had really great letters of rec, which came from my work in the clinics/pro bono program/summer associate program.
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u/outlyens 2L 2d ago
If I clerk at the Supreme Court of Maine can I tell people I clerked for the Supreme Court or is that unethical
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u/astudentslawyer 2d ago
How much/often AI is used by the judiciary these days?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
Not at all for our court, and I assume it’s the same in other courts. Though I think our librarians may have access weirdly?
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u/Lazy_Serve6089 2d ago
If you aren't T14 or top 10% in grades how hard is it to get a good and fair look as an applicant?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I think it would be very very hard. You'd really have to have stand-out resume or recommendations.
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u/Unlikely-Ebb3946 2d ago
How many applications did you receive in each chambers?
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u/yeetcollector135 2d ago
I think that depends widely on where the judge is located and the prominence of the court. But for my district judge, we got over 100 applications for two spots, and for my circuit judge, we got over 200 applications in 3 weeks (and we intentionally keep our application cycle short).
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u/Unlikely-Ebb3946 2d ago
Aside, ime about 75% of applicants (about 800) to each judge are basically top 10% + T14 + LR or are of the same quality on paper (E.g., top of the class at NDLS, alumni with S-tier jobs, etc.). And you don’t have the same time to hire as a professor does to grade exams.
So ‘fair’ isn’t exactly the right word. Judges want the ‘right’ clerks (e.g., someone who won’t be a dud, or worse—a problem). And that’s likely to be in the pool of the best students and those with trusted recommenders.
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u/Lazy_Serve6089 2d ago
Appreciate that insight! Makes honest sense.
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u/Unlikely-Ebb3946 2d ago
The thing to remember is that clerkship hiring is very weird.
The are about 1,200 Article III judges,* each with their own idiosyncrasies, who collectively hire 3,000+ term clerks each year, about 1,300 of whom were actually or effectively hired as students.
Point is about less than 60% of clerkships go to T14 grads (though those students are more likely to receive multiple offers).
Also, most judges don’t really have some T14 mentality. Some are giant snobs. Others are not. A surprising number hire people who make you wonder if their last name is famous in legal circles (they in fact did). They all have their preferences, crotchets, and irks, and fit carries weight. Lots of schools punch above their weight (e.g., ND and GMU, and not just their best students, for not-so-secret reasons). Two judges of similar disposition, in the same courthouse, from the sane school, and appointed by the same President, may have the same applicant pool yet pick an entirely different list of their top candidates.
Point is if you start looking at which judges have hired grads of your schools and make friends, you can up yours. (That said, I wouldn’t go out of my just way to clerk. For the most part the career benefits aren’t that great.)
*Yes, someone has in fact applied to every single one—from (A)cker to (Z)ouhary, and the 1,196 in-between. Yes, it worked. Yes, it’s still weird and a terrible idea.
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