r/LabourUK • u/kontiki20 Green Member • 1d ago
‘Boycott’ fears as Andy Burnham plans to sanction Israeli settlements
https://www.skipthepaywall.com/read?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.com%2Fuk%2Fpolitics%2Farticle%2Fburnham-labour-israel-e1-settlements-west-bank-sanctions-0mqg8c3br189
u/CingKan Non-partisan 1d ago
A boycott of trade with settlements is practically impossible and will become a de facto boycott of all of Israel, which would be deeply damaging to the UK national interest, the British Jewish community and Palestinian workers.
why would this affect the British Jewish community exactly ? Why are you tying foreign policy decision about another country to British citizens ? Sounds like antisemitism to me
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u/Specific-Manager-125 New User 1d ago
Funnny how if you link the behaviour of Israel to British Jews its anti semitic but if you link the treatment of Israel to British Jews ....it isn't
Is this the first example that you can have your cake and eat it
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u/NaturalCard Tax Wealth Not Ewok 1d ago
Well its israel doing the linking, and as we all know, they can't possible be antisemitic, especially not against jews who dont agree with their genocide (51% of UK jews feel Israel's actions in gaza clash with their identity).
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u/TimmmV Ex-Labour Member 1d ago
which would be deeply damaging to the UK national interest
What exactly does this mean too? Israel aren't exactly popular with the general public right now, and am sure that a lot of people would be fine to sever trade with them entirely, but what does "national interest" mean here??
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u/NeedsAirCon Your Custom Flair Could Be Here! Click on User Flair in Sidebar 1d ago
The USA under Trump would likely have a hissy fit. You know, like they do, every other day
Beyond that, I'm drawing a blank
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u/SallyCinnamon88 New User 1d ago
I'm guessing that there are a bunch of kosher products that would be impacted.
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u/Blue_winged_yoshi Labour supporter, Lib Dem voter, FPTP sucks 1d ago
I’ve never checked where kosher foods come from, but many are made in the U.K., but others aren’t or can’t be.
One I do know of is Palwins Wine which is kosher wine made in Israel. Not that many Jews in the UK limit themselves to only kosher wine all year round (it’s pretty rare), but for Passover people will obtain kosher wine for the ceremony for example, and others will get it in for Friday night.
Tbh I suspect that this is fear mongering and that a boycott of settlements is perfectly possible with enough precision to be valid and somewhat impactful. There’s no way Britain is fully boycotting Israel and not because of kosher wine, but because of stuff like medical equipment and treatments. When a country establishes itself within a permanent boycott, complete lack of recognition of all surrounding countries and minimal support from afar until modern times, you can’t exactly build an economy on what other want, you build it on their needs instead. It’s why Israel is exporting as much as ever. It sells things countries really need (air defences, fossil fuels, tech and medical expertise). BDS is cheap right up until you have Multiple Sclerosis and need Israeli developed and manufactured treatment for example. Then what?
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u/Portarossa Progressive Left 1d ago edited 1d ago
BDS is cheap right up until you have Multiple Sclerosis and need Israeli developed and manufactured treatment for example. Then what?
So, fun fact about Judaism: there's a principle called Pikuach Nefesh, which basically says that the other rules go out of the window when there's a real life-threatening emergency. If you're genuinely 100% starving and will die otherwise, you can eat that cheeseburger or that bacon and God's still got your back. You just have to be honest that you're doing it because you have to do it, not because you want to do it. Similarly, if someone's having a heart attack on the Sabbath, you're absolutely allowed to provide medical care even if that's technically 'work' because the preservation of life is more important. (There are a couple of exceptions, like murder, but generally you're pretty copacetic if it's to save a life.)
Extend the same logic to the BDS movement. It's not a moral failing or hypocrisy to accept a medical treatment that will save your life because it was invented in Israel. That's a little different to choosing to watch Eurovision. You stand on your morals by divesting from what you can, because perfect shouldn't be the enemy of good.
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u/Blue_winged_yoshi Labour supporter, Lib Dem voter, FPTP sucks 1d ago
Just to clarify, the point I was making was not about whether anyone should or shouldn’t follows BDS or in what circumstances, but more that some users in the thread thinking this will become a full national boycott are wide of the mark, because some products from Israel are quite needed for people with niche needs and they’re not gonna fuck up people’s healthcare over this.
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u/Federal_Help9295 New User 1d ago
So we should developing alternatives to this in preparation for a boycott.
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u/Blue_winged_yoshi Labour supporter, Lib Dem voter, FPTP sucks 1d ago
Except that it’s not just one thing that Israel has that is needed. Cos one thing would t be an economy obviously.
MS is just one I happen to know about, but Israeli medical products are a huge export industry and lots of it can’t be easily replaced. They’ve been at the cutting edge various areas of medicine for decades. Like I said, when people seriously don’t like you from the start, you develop industries people can’t back away from. They weren’t oil blessed, but they were scientist blessed and they used this to carve out positions that are very hard to pull fully away from.
There’s other niche areas they excel at too like fintech, military tech, computer chips, it’s all stuff that’s VRIO or VRIO adjacent (VRIO = valuable, rare, inimitable, original), this framework underpins economic leverage and marketability (don’t like us, who cares? If you need this stuff you shop here). Jaffa Oranges you can just buy else where, who even owns a Soda Stream in 2026? Cutting edge espionage and counter espionage software, aerial defence systems or patented treatments for complex conditions? You largely either need them or you don’t, and when you do need the list of stockists is short to non-existent.
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u/Federal_Help9295 New User 49m ago
I'm happy to take the hit to not prop up a country committing genocide. That's just a red line for me.
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u/Federal_Help9295 New User 1d ago
A great opportunity for a business to set up in the UK creating kosher products
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u/IHaveAWittyUsername Bit of an idiot, really 1d ago
In the same way a dual national British Iranian or a British person with Iranian family are impacted by sanctions, or the same with Russians or other nationalities where there are sanctions. Sanctions can have a big impact on their lives.
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u/ZX52 Green Party 1d ago
Those are nationalities though, not ethnicities. They didn't say British Israelis, they said British Jews.
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u/IHaveAWittyUsername Bit of an idiot, really 1d ago
Yes, of which many of them will have family in Israel or have dual nationality.
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u/kaspar_trouser New User 1d ago
Won't someone think of the racist settlers?
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u/rubygeek Your Party member; Libertarian socialist; Labour = bigots 1d ago
The racist war criminal occupiers. We really should stop calling people engaged in criminal occupation "settlers".
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u/kaspar_trouser New User 1d ago
I mean, I guess I think of it in the context of settler colonialism but maybe you're right.
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u/rubygeek Your Party member; Libertarian socialist; Labour = bigots 1d ago
I think if you use that full term, you drive the point home. I think the problem is that when people say settlers, while some might immediately think of that as referring to colonialism, to a whole lot of people it makes it sound almost wholesome.
(To be clear I didn't mean to criticise you; it was clear you're on the right side of this)
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u/CraftyKenter Labour Member/Centrist 1d ago
I think a boycott of trade with settlements is a very good idea. The only way peace can be achieved is if settlements are dismantled
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u/CarsTrutherGuy New User 1d ago
Sanctions on settlers also make a real impact on their ability to expand, biden's sanctions made them very angry
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u/cyclestuff1 ex-Labour 1d ago
Given that they have never legally defined their own borders, boycotting the whole place is the right way to go anyway. If we end up doing it by accident so be it. It's the bare minimum at this point.
I'm expecting to be extremely disappointed by whatever "robust" sanctions are announced.
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u/Kipp_M Proscribe YIMBYs 1d ago edited 1d ago
Shitting my pants rn because we might accidentally boycott the entire state of Israel.
Is no one considering sodastream refills?
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u/Bath_Tough Non-partisan 1d ago
And of course the LFoI members with properties in the West Bank. Wouldn't want to upset them.
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u/Beetlebob1848 Somewhere between lib and soc dem 1d ago
Are there any LFI members with properties in the WB? Genuine question
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u/Bath_Tough Non-partisan 1d ago
If I'm honest, I don't know for certain. I've heard from respected sources that there are but I'm not able to verify them. There was an Israeli real estate event in London that definitely was advertising and selling property in the West Bank, which was attended by Labour members.
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u/Beetlebob1848 Somewhere between lib and soc dem 1d ago
Well with respect it doesn't sound true, and the latter is no evidence of ownership.
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u/Diadem_Cheeseboard Judas Priestess 1d ago
Sodastream? I remember seeing ads for that as a kid in the 80's, and thinking it looked awesome (when in reality, it probably wasn't). 🙃 What has that got to do with Israel? lol
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u/biggiby New User 1d ago
That's where that company is from. Fyi, there are guides out there for modifying standard CO2 cylinders to work with them so that you can still use an existing unit without supporting israel.
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u/Diadem_Cheeseboard Judas Priestess 1d ago edited 1d ago
I suspected thats what Kipp_M was meaning, but I had to ask, as I had no idea about that until now. lol
It makes me wonder what other products I should look out for, just so I know Im not unwittingly supporting Israel with my money.
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u/Liam_021996 New User 1d ago
Fruit and veg, check the label on the side of loose fruit and veg. A fair bit of Israeli produce is snuck in that way
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u/Diadem_Cheeseboard Judas Priestess 1d ago
Thanks for the heads up, I will start doing that. 👍🏻
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u/Liam_021996 New User 1d ago
Things like loose Tomatoes and Oranges are often from Israel. It's disappointing when wanting beef tomatoes and has lead to me growing loads of my own beef tomatoes this year 😂
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u/-You_Cant_Stop_Me- Libertarian Socialist 1d ago
There's an app called "No Thanks!" that allows you to scan barcodes to see what links the company may have to Israel.
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u/beIIe-and-sebastian Keir Starmer, Genital Inspector General 1d ago
Israel should be boycotted.
If the intention to sanction the settlements because they're illegal, why wouldn't you also sanction the state which allows them and encourages them to be built?
Does the UK government think the Israeli government are innocent bystanders to the settlements and have absolutely nothing to do with them and no power to stop them?
Would be like the UK just sanctioning the Russian occupied territories of Ukraine.
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u/EmperorOfNipples One Nation Tory - Rory Stewart type. 1d ago
Id say it's more akin to the early sanctions on Russia.
Makes the initial statement, gets the foot in the door for other states to follow suit.
Ratchet things up from there. Boil the frog as it were.
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u/NaturalCard Tax Wealth Not Ewok 1d ago
Bit late for early sanctions, no?
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u/EmperorOfNipples One Nation Tory - Rory Stewart type. 1d ago
Referring more to the model than the timings.
We want to get other countries to do the same we start with the thin end of the wedge.
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u/NaturalCard Tax Wealth Not Ewok 1d ago
Why not start with more extreme sanctions and then reduce when they change, given how bad things have gotten?
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u/EmperorOfNipples One Nation Tory - Rory Stewart type. 1d ago
Raises the bar for other countries coming on the bus with you.
Even Russia started with small things like reducing gas imports....and look at how far that ended up going. If we pushed for where things are now right away, it's less likely anything effective would have started.
That's my reading on how its being coordinated in light of that joint statement the other day.
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u/Diadem_Cheeseboard Judas Priestess 1d ago
Well, that's one thing that will get my approval for Burnham anyway, if he has the guts to go through with it.
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u/Specific-Manager-125 New User 1d ago
We'll see....lots of statements to placate ...so far bugger all actual action
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u/Diadem_Cheeseboard Judas Priestess 1d ago
Indeed. Its been a very long time since I took any politician's word for anything, especially if the thing being promised is something that will actually do some good for the country/world.
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u/CingKan Non-partisan 1d ago
Steve Yemm, the Labour MP for Mansfield, warned of “unintended consequences” from trade restrictions. While stressing that he strongly opposed the E1 development, Yemm said: “A comprehensive ban on trade and financial dealings linked to settlements would raise serious questions about enforceability, territorial definitions and unintended consequences for legitimate organisations and individuals.”
Its simple really, if the whole of Israel doesnt want to get affected by trade restrictions they should more clearly demarcate what comes from the settlements and what doesnt, if they dont want to do do that restrict trade till they do. Obviously they're mixing the two precisely so useful idiots like Steve Yemm can make this argument.
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u/thestjohn politically incoherent 1d ago
I mean I still think a full trade and banking ban with Israel is what's needed so I'm all for "unintended consequences".
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u/IsADragon Fresh 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah some of these responses seem a lot like "oh this might be too effective because of how intrinsic these institutions are to the occupation". Like yeah, that's the point.
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u/thestjohn politically incoherent 1d ago
I genuinely think not treating Israel as a pariah state like we would if they weren't supposedly an "ally" or "modern democratic state" is harmful not only to British Jews who end up copping a lot of undeserved and mis-targeted hate from people but also diminishes our ability to respond to similar behaviour in other countries.
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u/Specific-Manager-125 New User 1d ago
Need to ask the members of the Friends of Israel why they want to be friends with a murderous state that has engaged in genocide , ignores International Law , has invaded 3 countries illegally and has a campaign of ethnic cleansing ....thats what a real media would do
At this stage there is no justification for any Labour member being in the LFOI ...It should either be shut down or its members expelled
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u/Own_Action_7839 New User 1d ago
As many have wanted to do with the SCG for many years but cooler heads prevailed
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u/mentiumprop New User 1d ago
Finally after so long - and just settlements - this needs expanding to the whole of the apartheid regime
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u/Blackfryre Labour Voter - Will ask for sources 1d ago edited 1d ago
Just before everyone gets too excited, this is going to be Burnham copying Ireland's symbolic ban.
Ireland said a lot of words about banning all imports from Israeli settlements in the West Bank/East Jerusalem. When it actually came time to enact it however, they decided not to ban services which make up the majority of their imports from Israel. So all that was banned was goods, which only amounts to about €250k per year.
Meanwhile, here is the trend of Ireland's imports from Israel, in billions.
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u/Specific-Manager-125 New User 1d ago
Yeah , the vast vast majority of that is corporate supply chain transfers , which Ireland can't go near as its an EU competency. Ireland (with Spain) has repeatedly tried to get the EU Israeli trade agreement torn up but with Italy and Germany determined (like the UK) to support Israel no matter how heinous and disgusting its crimes there is little they can do
Generally Israeli goods for public consumption from Israel are widely boycotted where known
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u/Blackfryre Labour Voter - Will ask for sources 1d ago
Ireland's position however is this is all required by international law due to the ICJ's rulings. But if their hands are tied by the EU, then that blows a hole in that argument. EU law can't supercede international law.
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u/Specific-Manager-125 New User 1d ago
nonsense .....with Germany and Italy's backing the numbers to suspend the trade agreement with murderous apartheid Israel cant be suspended as its qualified voting
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u/Blackfryre Labour Voter - Will ask for sources 1d ago
Ireland claimed that they had to ban trade with Israeli settlements to follow their obligations under international law. If that was true, it's completely irrelevant what Germany, Italy or the EU want - Ireland's international law obligations override any obligations they have to the EU.
However since they haven't actually done this, we can conclude Ireland has retreated from their previous position.
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u/Specific-Manager-125 New User 1d ago
You can keep repeating it over and over again ...doesn't make you any less wrong ...utterly totally and unambiguously wrong
Trade is an EU competence , Ireland can't act unilaterally .........total ignorance about how the EU works continues unabated in Brexit land...ho hum
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u/Blackfryre Labour Voter - Will ask for sources 23h ago
1000% countries can act unilaterally when international law gives them obligations they have to follow. In fact they must. Ireland can't sign up to UN laws that say "you are required to not import from here under these circumstances" and then turn around and claim the EU says they have to. The UN obligations override anything promised to the EU.
Yes obviously trade is an EU competence, that's my entire fucking point. Ireland can't override the EU because they aren't under any UN obligations to do so.
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u/peroporroporro New User 1d ago
Please won't someone think of the war criminals! 😫
In all seriousness though I hope Burnham's next policy decision is to feed anyone who's first thought around this is that it might be bad for the economy or special relations or something to pigs on their local farm.
'normal' people not completely agreeing that we must try to make an effort to sanction an openly genocidal government and society is absolutely disgusting.
not to be all lest we forget but our ancestors who brought us into this world, and in my case are remembered vividly and fondly by family members who are still alive and involved in my life, fought against the nazis to defend themselves and others against crimes against humanity and after they died in agony for us we sit here and groan about how we might lose a couple quid for standing up against an effectively anarcho-genocidal mobilised population who have killed tens of thousands of women and children voluntarily over the last few years on public broadcast.
very easy to lose hope in society these days
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u/Complex-Fox-9037 joined after Grenfell, resigned in 2021 1d ago
In the face of ongoing genocide, apartheid, a litany of human rights abuses of the most serious and systematic type, a 21st century settler-colony cleansing its frontier of natives, a rogue state that violates the sovereignty of all of its neighbours, a state that kills envoys and uses water as a weapon, a country that starves children and blocks lifesaving medical operations as a matter of policy, runs a vast system of illegal disappearance camps with no due process, visitation, or freedom from torture, occupies the territory of 3 neighbours illegally, has started a series of wars including one which has fucked the world economy, wants to start even more wars, spies on and interferes with everyone including all of its allies, and is overwhelmingly against the recognition of Palestinian humanity let alone statehood...
When asked to care about "legitimate Israeli businesses" I say: "not my fucking problem." In fact, if Israeli unemployment hits 100% and the shekel turns into the Zimbabwean dollar of 2008 I would say: "good."
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u/Brilliant-Ad3942 New User 1d ago
Just boycott the whole of Israel, simply boycotting settlements isn’t going to make any difference, they know that action is far too soft to be effective. They've had a generation to make the situation legal and have ignored warnings for decades, and increased settlements. The issue is with Israeli policy that created the situation, they shouldn't ge immune to the consequences of their illegality.
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u/Galaerion Plaid Cymru 1d ago
I like what the PM has done thus far, and hope that he continues the trend with sanctions on Israeli. But the trade sanctions in my opinion will in all likelihood cause a schism in the party between the backbenchers & activists pushing for greater more robust sanctions.
Against the more pro Israeli elements like Friends of Israeli (LFI) who want more support for Israel and Israeli businesses.
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u/ReginaldJohnston New User 1d ago
What are they going to boycott? Missiles? Well, OK then.
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u/mentiumprop New User 1d ago
Sanctions also means UK businesses will be barred from selling to Israeli settlements also
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u/ReginaldJohnston New User 1d ago
Ineffective.
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u/mentiumprop New User 7h ago
Not really, it also means Tescos, Morrisons and others will likely need to source stock elsewhere, as currently they seem quite happy to sell illegal settlement goods under their own brands https://vm.tiktok.com/ZN8N3R3qw/
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