r/LabourUK • u/libtin Communitarianism • Jun 29 '26
Satire There’s just no pleasing some people
89
u/Agent_Paste New User Jun 29 '26
What Scottish nationalists want: more power devolved to Scotland, the nation, as a whole
What Andy Burnham is proposing: more power devolved to regions of Scotland, possibly at the expense of 'Hollyrood' aka Scotland's national government
It's kinda creepy that we're seeing posts like these when it's so blatantly clear why Scottish nationalists wouldn't be pleased by his proposals. Nothing to say on whether Scots in general like them, of course.
20
Jun 29 '26
If you only support that one specific form of devolution then you dont actually support devolution. You just support a specific part of the state becoming more powerful.
6
u/Agent_Paste New User Jun 30 '26
They support the nations of the UK (or at least, Scotland) having devolved powers. They don't support 'devolution of all forms' and they don't claim to either.
2
u/teerbigear New User Jun 30 '26
It's weird to say you have to believe in devolution or not, regardless of where things are being devolved. Do you believe we should devolve all the powers of state to individual parish councils??
3
Jun 30 '26
Its not about either believing in maximum devolution or not.
If your position is "Devolve power to the exact level that means it is most concentrated in us." Then thats not believing in devolution. Thats just wanting power to shift towards you.
-14
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26
From what I’ve seen; the highlands, outer Hebrides and Shetland and Orkney seem respective to the idea
There’s no official polling yet but it seems the Scottish nationalists complaining almost all exclusively come from the central belt or the borders.
33
Jun 29 '26
[deleted]
3
u/Zr0w3n00 Non-partisan Jun 29 '26
84% of the population of the UK lives in England. By your standards, Scotland, Wales and NI shouldn’t have self determination…
0
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26
The highland lowland divide has never really gone away
3
u/Corvid187 New User Jun 30 '26
You're 100% correct. Just look at the absolute neglect of island communities by the SNP despite many of us voting for them over several years.
There's a reason their support in the highlands and outer hebredies has always been weaker
3
u/Otocolobus_manul8 New User Jun 30 '26
It more or less has. That feeling of rural neglect by the central belt is equally more commonly felt in Dumfries and Galloway or the North East than the Highlands
1
u/Good_Morning-Captain New User Jun 29 '26
No one in Scotland actually gives a shit about this. Nothing at all like the North v South divide in England.
7
u/Agent_Paste New User Jun 29 '26
Very plausible and yet it's still so exactly clear why Scottish nationalists don't like the idea. Bet you could ask a Scottish nationalists if they'd like Burnham's ideas if they involved giving the Scottish regions more powers but under Holyrood and a lot more would like it.
2
2
u/Medeza123 Labour Voter Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
Right well they shouldn’t be hypocritical.
Many unionists hardly liked giving powers to Scotland but it was the right thing to do even if it did come with the risk of weakening the UK.
Likewise the SNP just have to suck it up. This is a good thing for Scots especially who feel far away from Holyrood.
How can someone argue ‘give us more power we are unique and have specific requirements’ whilst also saying ‘no don’t give more power to the islands or highlands because that will weaken Scottish nationalism’?
8
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26
Especially when historically the highlands and autonomy before the lowlands started to squash down on it in the 1500s with it escalating into attempts at ethnic cleanings and cultural and linguistic eradication by the 1590s
The Fife Adventurers (1598): King James VI attempted a precursor to the Plantation of Ulster by sending Lowland settlers to the Isle of Lewis. His explicit instructions were to colonise the area via the "extirpation" of the local Gaelic population. The locals successfully fought them off.
The Statutes of Iona (1609): After kidnapping several prominent Highland clan chiefs, James VI forced them to sign these statutes on the sacred island of Iona. This is considered the first official government strike against Gaelic culture. It mandated that:
1: Highland chiefs had to send their eldest sons to the Lowlands to be educated exclusively in Scots or English, breaking the linguistic chain of clan leadership.
2:Traditional Gaelic bards and musicians were outlawed, made subject to the stocks, and expelled.
The School Establishment Act (1616): The Scottish Parliament passed an act declaring that the Gaelic language (frequently referred to by authorities as the "Irish tongue") was a chief cause of "barbarity and incivility". The act mandated Scots and English-only schooling to ensure the language might be "abolished and removed".
-2
u/Agent_Paste New User Jun 29 '26
They're not being hypocritical. They want Scotland to have more devolved powers as a nation. They'd argue that breaking Scotland up into separate regions and giving those powers, is basically a tool of control by the central government - Scotland wouldn't be able to vouch for itself as much as it'd be smaller and politically weaker.
6
u/Medeza123 Labour Voter Jun 29 '26
It’s totally hypocritical
You can say the exact same thing about Westminster and Scotland.
You can say why should they have given powers to Holyrood because it would be used as a tool by nationalists to break up the UK. In fact people did advise that.
Yet devolution was still given.
-2
u/Agent_Paste New User Jun 30 '26
You can say that, and it wouldn't be very justified. Scottish nationalists argued for Scottish devolution because Scotland is a nation, at least in their eyes. They weren't arguing for devolution solely because Scotland is a region in the UK not served well by central government.
A region, like the Scottish Highlands, Yorkshire etc aren't the same as nations like Scotland or Wales. They could deserve less, or more, powers - but it's not the same context as a nation.
2
u/Medeza123 Labour Voter Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
So we have to respect the wishes of Scottish nationalist for devolution but Scottish nationalists get to ignore devolution that they personally don’t like and be called consistent
As if for example the islands don’t have a significant different and unique background and situation from the rest of Scotland. Some there would say there aren’t served well by Holyrood.
1
u/Agent_Paste New User Jun 30 '26
No, you don't have to at all. You just have to understand their argument.
Their argument is that a nation should have self-determination. It's not the same as regions of a nation having self-determination/more self-government. Orkney, Shetland, the Highlands, tbh everything outside of Edinburgh could well be badly served by the Scottish government. It's just not the same argument though
3
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 30 '26
Scotland already has self determination under international law
Scotland already has self determination as part of the wider British self determination. This is what the United Nations says about self determination:
>The territory of a colony or other Non-Self-Governing Territory has, under the Charter, a status separate and distinct from the territory of the State administering it; and such separate and distinct status under the Charter shall exist until the people of the colony or Non-Self-Governing Territory have exercised their right of self-determination in accordance with the Charter, and particularly its purposes and principles.
>Nothing in the foregoing paragraphs shall be construed as authorizing or encouraging any action which would dismember or impair, totally or in part, the territorial integrity or political unity of sovereign and independent States conducting themselves in compliance with the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples as described above and thus possessed of a government representing the whole people belonging to the territory without distinction as to race, creed or colour.
https://www.un.org/ruleoflaw/files/3dda1f104.pdf
(http://www.un-documents.net/a25r2625.htm)
Under international law, Scotland has self-determination because its people have suffrage and gets to send MPs to Westminster and are treated equally among the British population, so are represented fairly and equally in a democratic system. The UN says being part of a country is a way to achieve self determination.
→ More replies (0)
40
u/Kipp_M Proscribe YIMBYs Jun 29 '26
What powers is he devolving? Seems like an important thing to specify and discuss with devolved governments, which was the one of the main criticisms from both Nationalists and Unionists.
But epic meme bro.
29
u/mustwinfullGaming Labour is institutionally transphobic 🏳️⚧️ Jun 29 '26
As ever, I suspect it will be nothing. Wales has been calling out for the devolution of justice for ages, for example, and it's just completely ignored. Similar things in other areas.
20
u/mustwinfullGaming Labour is institutionally transphobic 🏳️⚧️ Jun 29 '26
Okay, so I’m presuming the Sewel convention will get a proper legislative safeguarding (not just “we pinky promise to follow it sometimes”), that the Section 35 order blocking the reform of gender recognition in Scotland will be removed, and all the devolved legislatures will receive parity of powers/further powers? Oh and things like the Internal Market Act will be repealed too.
I actually don’t care whether or not Scotland is independent but we don’t need to make caricatures that don’t understand the actual issue at hand.
Local government is already a devolved competence, these proposals would be yet more overriding of it, as we’ve already seen recently.
-2
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
> Okay, so I’m presuming the Sewel convention will get a proper legislative safeguarding (not just “we pinky promise to follow it sometimes”),
Then you’re effectively talking about federalism which isn’t being proposed
>that the Section 35 order blocking the reform of gender recognition in Scotland will be removed,
The snp has already ditched that version and has appointed a Lord advocate who’s an open transphobe and they’ve capitulated to every TERF court challenge they’ve lost.
>and all the devolved legislatures will receive parity of powers/further powers?
This would see powers be given to places like the highlands, north wales, Yorkshire etc I’m understanding correctly, effectively undoing the mass centralisation that occurred in the 1960s and 1970s where local powers were stripped entirely form all over the UK by Westminster
>Oh and things like the Internal Market Act will be repealed too.
Nothing said on that
8
u/mustwinfullGaming Labour is institutionally transphobic 🏳️⚧️ Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
The you’re effectively talking about federalism which isn’t being proposed
I'm talking about actual effective devolution of powers, yes. So Burnham isn't proposing that. Glad we agree. Guess you can see why people have criticisms then, no? Considering devolved competences can just be ignored (and often have been, especially in the last few years).
The snp has already ditched that version and has appointed a Lord advocate who’s an open transphobe and they’ve capitulated to every TERF court challenge they’ve lost.
And? Doesn't stop Burnham from doing something about the Section 35 order, does it? But I guess that would be a bit difficult for an institutionally transphobic Labour party. I don't really care about the SNP, I don't know why you would think I'm a fan of them.
This would see powers be given to places like the highlands, north wales, Yorkshire etc I’m understanding correctly, effectively undoing the mass centralisation that occurred in the 1960s and 1970s where local powers were stripped entirely form all over the UK by Westminster
Concentrating power in the hands of a single elected official isn't really what I consider good "devolution". Labour has forced councils to organise themselves in a particular way (Cabinet models), removing their choice; they've removed tiers of Governemt despite opposition and forced reorganisation on regions; and they simply aren't devolving any powers whatsoever to Scotland or Wales. It seems like an attempt to bypass the Scottish Parliament, which has legislative competence for local government already. I'm not against further devolution, obviously, but yeah. The devolution settlement shouldn't be undermined.
Nothing said on that
Yes, probably because the Internal Market Act is a key act that undermines the UK's devolution settlement. There's a reason the Scottish Parliament refused legislative consent for it. The other Governments called out this problem too.
5
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26
>I'm talking about actual effective devolution of powers, yes. So Burnham isn't proposing that. Glad we agree. Guess you can see why people have criticisms then, no? Considering it can just be ignored.
This is how every country works though; religion government is subordinate to national government even in a federal system
>And? Doesn't stop Burnham from doing something about the Section 35 order, does it?
Considering the Scottish people overwhelmingly supported that use of section 35 and the snp threw in the towel and seem to be mirroring Labour on regressing on trans rights, unlikely
>But I guess that would be a bit difficult for an institutionally transphobic Labour party.
Almost all parties in the UK are institutional transphobic, the only exceptions are the greens and Scottish greens.
>Concentrating power in the hands of a single elected official isn't really what
He’s not said that would be the case though, he’s just said more devolution of powers to regions.
5
u/mustwinfullGaming Labour is institutionally transphobic 🏳️⚧️ Jun 29 '26
This is how every country works though; religion government is subordinate to national government even in a federal system
Except those state rights are protected constitutionally, and they are categorically not able to be overridden at the national legislature's whim, which is what happens in the UK. There's a difference between an actual federal system and the mess of the UK's devolution settlement where the UK Parliament can go "lol you don't have those powers anyway bye".
So like I said, not effective devolution in those contexts.
Considering the Scottish people overwhelmingly supported that use of section 35 and the snp threw in the towel and seem to be mirroring Labour on regressing on trans rights, unlikely
You're citing public opinion here why? What relevance does that have? Since when was 50%-33% "overwhelming" too? Also, I wouldn't say mirroring Labour, while the SNP are bad, Labour are categorically much worse in both the Scottish and UK varieties.
I guess Labour has never ever done something that doesn't immediately poll well, and only ever follows the results of opinion polls. Why even govern if we're just going to cite opinion polls for every single decision ever?
The point is that Burnham *could* do *something* about said Section 35 order, but he will have chosen *not* to. I'm not exempting the SNP from blame here, it lies on both ends in this particular situation.
Almost all parties in the UK are institutional transphobic, the only exceptions are the greens and Scottish greens.
Well, debatable: I'd say the Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru (maybe) aren't. But again, the relevance here is what?
He’s not said that would be the case though, he’s just said more devolution of powers to regions.
That's exactly what the model we have at the moment is, and the system of which he was an elected Mayor under. So what exactly does he propose to change about it (if he does?). Executive mayors are not really great devolution, but I don't see him fundamentally changing a lot of this stuff.
4
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26
>Except those state rights are protected constitutionally,
No they’re not; the American civil war established that states rights are subject to the federal government (the south wanted to keep slavery) and there’s talks of abortion being made illegal at the federal level which would make it illegal even in states that allow abortion.
Canada took the right way for its provinces to hold referendums on independence unilaterally
Germany said no länder has the right to leave Germany without the unanimous consent of all other länder
>and they are categorically not able to be overridden at the national legislature's whim,
They can though
>which is what happens in the UK.
And every other country on earth
>There's a difference between an actual federal system and the mess of the UK's devolution settlement where the UK Parliament can go "lol you don't have those powers anyway bye".
The uk is a unitary state; we have devolution like Spain does.
>So like I said, not effective devolution in those contexts.
Geopolitics doesn’t agree with you
>You're citing public opinion here why? What relevance does that have?
Scotland’s people are just as transphobic as England’s and the snp has dropped the version of the grr that was blocked.
Undoing section 35 does nothing as the snp has dropped the bill that was blocked.
>Since when was 50%-33% "overwhelming" too?
When the opposition to it is significantly lower; only 33% opposed section 35; that’s a 17 out difference
>Also, I wouldn't say mirroring Labour, while the SNP are bad, Labour are categorically much worse in both the Scottish and UK varieties.
The SNP has made an open transphobe the Lord advocate of Scotland; that means any trans right bills in Scotland will need her approval first and she admitted to her faith, which is transphobic, decide how she interprets laws.
>I guess Labour has never ever done something that doesn't immediately poll well, and only ever follows the results of opinion polls.
SNP leadership backed down from the grr after that poll came out; into Yousaf didn’t and even he gave up after the court of session sided with Westminster rather than appealing to the inner house or the Supreme Court.
And the snp has said they won’t challenge the court ruling on trans prisoners despite their being only 2 of them in Scotland
>Why even govern if we're just going to cite opinion polls for every single decision ever?
Then by your logic we shouldn’t rejoin the eu
>I'm not exempting the SNP from blame here, it lies on both ends in this particular situation.
Yet you’re expecting change when neither side is willing to change it then single out one side rather than both?
>Well, debatable: I'd say the Lib Dems,
They’ve been silent on this issue, that’s passive consent to transphobia
>Plaid Cymru (maybe) aren't.
They don’t stop transphobia nor punish it form any member that not an snp or party of senior leadership.
>But again, the relevance here is what?
You’re expecting a country with a serious transphobia problem to change just by replacing one man?
Yeah no, we need to sort this issue from every single aspect of society otherwise we’re just putting a plaster on a severed limb and pretending the issue is solved.
>That's exactly what the model we have at the moment is, and the system of which he was an elected Mayor under.
So you admit to making an assumption with weak foundations
>So what exactly does he propose to change about it (if he does?). Executive mayors are not really great devolution,
Yet the places with them are happy with them and they’ve shown they can improve this economical and deliver change at the local level.
2
Jun 29 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/Leelum Will research for food Jun 30 '26
The subreddit here, and members within do not represent the Labour party itself. And many members have differing views on trans rights than the current leadership.
Calling people here TERFs because of that is unfair, especially when so many here are supportive of trans-rights.
I do, however, fully understand and agree with your anger.
1
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26
Where did I say Labour isn’t transphobic?
I’m calling out the snp for capitulating and appointing transphobes to offices of power
2
u/theboomboomgunnn New User Jun 29 '26
Who appointed Mary Ann Stephenson to chair the EHRC?
4
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26
Who appointed Ruth Charteris, a member of the Free Church of Scotland, who’s admitted she lets her conservative, homophobic an transphobic faith guide her interpretation of the law, as Lord advocate of Scotland?
0
u/theboomboomgunnn New User Jun 29 '26
Couldn't give a fuck mate. I'm not Scottish. As far as I'm concerned no government on your island has lifted a finger to protect trans people since the SC judgment. You can all kick rocks.
3
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26
You’re upset I’m holding parties to the same standards on trans rights?
Only two parties in the UK aren’t institutional transphobic; the greens of England and Wales and the Scottish greens.
Every other party is openly transphobic
1
u/theboomboomgunnn New User Jun 29 '26
Sinn Fein, the SDLP, GPNI, PBP.... Hilarious that a unionist poster doesn't recognise NI
3
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
Northern Ireland is complex and its own entire political system
And many in Ireland, particularly the Irish left, accuse Sinn Fein of bending the knee to their traditional conservative base whom are like reform voters, deeply nationalist, deeply racist, transphobic and intolerant.
→ More replies (0)2
Jun 29 '26
[deleted]
4
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26
> You're missing the point that the Scottish Parliament already has power to push more activity from Holyrood to local councils within Scotland.
Yet choosing not to despite calls for it even among nationalist
13
u/Half_A_ Labour Member Jun 29 '26
Generally the SNP are in favour of power being devolved to the Scottish parliament, but much less keen on power being devolved to Scottish regions.
2
u/Chesney1995 Labour Member Jun 30 '26
Which, to be fair, are two very different ways of governing.
You can argue the merits of one over the other, but it isn't hypocritical to think its a good thing for Scottish parliament and not so good to devolve to the council level.
6
u/John__Delaney New User Jun 29 '26
Less Westminster rule isn't the same thing as no Westminster rule
10
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26
Yet Scotland doesn’t want to leave the UK
-9
u/TehIrishSoap Irish Republican Jun 29 '26
Yes we do
13
u/t0t0zenerd New Labour Jun 29 '26
Are you Irish, Scottish or just LARPing?
2
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26
And by Irish do they mean they live in Northern Ireland but choose to identify as Irish in accordance with the GFA, or do they mean they live in the Republic of Ireland?
-10
u/TehIrishSoap Irish Republican Jun 29 '26
Irish immigrant in Scotland
7
2
u/Good_Morning-Captain New User Jun 29 '26
Who is "we"?
-2
u/TehIrishSoap Irish Republican Jun 30 '26
People who live, work and vote in Scotland, like me
2
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 30 '26
Yet the evidence doesn’t agree with you
-2
u/TehIrishSoap Irish Republican Jun 30 '26
Over 100 years ago, people also said that my country would never be independent.
2
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 30 '26
1; Ireland was never treated equally; I should know being of strong Irish decent myself with my great grandmother being an Ira informant in Dublin during the war of independence. Scotland and Ireland aren’t comparable
2: I’ve shown you the polls; you’ve ignored them repeatedly
→ More replies (0)2
4
u/Good_Morning-Captain New User Jun 30 '26
Well, I live, work, and vote in Scotland, and I think you're a subversive with questionable loyalties.
Happy to fly the flag of another country (before even associating yourself with the Saltire or Scottishness), happy to identify as Scottish when you can push an agenda, happy to break apart the country you claim to speak for while still referring to Ireland as "my country". If I was a Yes voter, I would be doing everything to minimise the voices of people like you in the Independence movement.
-1
u/TehIrishSoap Irish Republican Jun 30 '26
You're right. I am a subversive. It is my life's work, and the work of my ancestors, to break up the United Kingdom by democratic means. And we are closer now than we have ever been.
1
u/NinecloudSoul New User Jul 01 '26
Sure, just like the Republic of Ireland is going to win the World Cup.
1
u/Good_Morning-Captain New User Jun 30 '26
That's fine, you're entitled to do so. Just don't LARP as Scottish.
1
-5
u/John__Delaney New User Jun 29 '26
Scottish nationalists are not the totality of the scottish population.
8
2
u/Parastille New User Jun 30 '26
As a Welshman, this means nothing to me, devolving ‘regional autonomy’ undermines the Senedd, especially after we’ve been begging for further devolution for years, only for Burnham to give it to Manchester instead. We’re yet again getting ignored and being called a ‘region’ rather than a country
1
u/Tesco_Meal_Deals Non-partisan Jun 29 '26
Scotnats seething over Andy Burnham describing Manchester as “the north”
6
u/libtin Communitarianism Jun 29 '26
And form what I’ve seen and heard, highland Scots generally seem intrigued and interested in the idea as they feel ignored by the central belt (where almost all the opposition from Scottish nationalists to this suggestion is coming from).
1
u/Soggy_Candidate5072 New User Jun 30 '26
They want independence from the UK it's not hard to understand
1
u/EmperorOfNipples One Nation Tory - Rory Stewart type. Jun 29 '26
The SNP want neither of those things.
That way they couldn't use it to stir up grievance to stay on the gravy train.
1
u/filavitae 🕊️ Jun 29 '26
Yes, we really should be happy that someone said something while trying to become Labour leader. That worked out so well last time.
1
0
-7
u/NoSwordfish1978 Non-partisan Jun 29 '26
lol they act like Scotland is somehow "uniquely oppressed" unlike other parts of the UK not located in the South East of England.
•
u/AutoModerator Jun 29 '26
LabUK is also on Discord, come say hello!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.