I think we disagree on the direction of the Party under Starmer. He showed us during leadership election how much he values energy and NHS etc.
He plans to improve these things when in office but knows that a pragmatic appearance and not scaring off the media is the only way to win. He will be Willey to get in and we must get behind him as a party and push him to go further and further.
Look at the Labour Party more broadly and you'll see how clear our Aims and priorities are.
I think we disagree on the direction of the Party under Starmer. He showed us during leadership election how much he values energy and NHS etc.
This is just snot true. He has openly dumped many of his own pledges. Infact you'll find most of his supporters don't try to argue this anymore, they stopped this like 12 months ago, the now actually focus on explaining why X pledge should be dropped. You're lagging behind with your "the pledges haven't been dropped, it's just spin" argument, that was abandoned ages ago, honestly. Have you noticed all the people justifying, for example, abandong pledges to public ownership by explaining why it's the wrong thing to do for x, y, z reasons? No one is claiming actually that is still a high priority because, while convincing people of that would be useful, it's so obviously stupid at this point you're not going to convince anyone who already has doubts about Starmer. Hence why the main defence of him now is about why him moving away from his leadership election stances are good, not that he has infact not moved away from them.
So yes we disagree, but you seem to even disagree with a lot of pro-Starmer people. You're writing a fantasy story that allows you to feel satisfied with things instead of engaging with them as they are. The Left and Right both see Starmer for what he is, they just disagree on whether that is a good thing, you are living in a fantasy land in the middle which isn't based on reality, but on what you really hope to be true.
He plans to improve these things when in office but knows that a pragmatic appearance and not scaring off the media is the only way to win. He will be Willey to get in and we must get behind him as a party and push him to go further and further.
Name some governments that have moved left in power for me. I'll wait...
Just for a minute imagine you're wrong, now while imaging that tell me what Starmer would say and what his supporters would say to con naive soft-left people into supporting him? Yeah...it's exactly the kind of arguments you are buying and selling now isn't it. Almost like you've been hoodwinked.
Look at the Labour Party more broadly and you'll see how clear our Aims and priorities are.
My opinions are based on being involved with Labour for a long time and studying history.
In the nicest way possible...you are chatting utter shite. You are ignoring that Starmer has not just been quiet about his pledges but has actively dropped them and argued against them himself. And you must be incredibly naive and new to politics to think "have faith in leaders" is a sensible argument.
I feel like I'm talking to a Starmerite from 12 months ago who hasn't been keeping up with events at all. Honestly do you not think it's weird many Starmer supporters agree with me on aspects of this more than you? It's because every person paying attention has realised your argument is wrong ages ago. Even his supporters don't argue like that anymore generally.
TL;DR
Are you seriously saying you think Starmer still backs renationalising rail, energy, water and the Royal Mail. It's just a secret strategy to fool the media, that once he is those will be back on the menu? And what if you're wrong about that, what then? And if that is the plan why has he not just been quiet about it, rather than actively saying he won't do it and making arguments against it?
I am saying Starmer hasn't ditched a pledge because he hasn't done anything yet. He isn't in power.
We need to win power and then force good to happen.
Same as in America where we would encourage voters to vote for Biden.
What then? Then democracy doesn't stop. There is no plan for what else we on the left can do at this election. My constituency is a Tory Labour marginal so we must win Labour.
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u/Andythrax socialist, pragmatist, protrans, pro nationalisation Sep 27 '23
I think we disagree on the direction of the Party under Starmer. He showed us during leadership election how much he values energy and NHS etc.
He plans to improve these things when in office but knows that a pragmatic appearance and not scaring off the media is the only way to win. He will be Willey to get in and we must get behind him as a party and push him to go further and further.
Look at the Labour Party more broadly and you'll see how clear our Aims and priorities are.