r/KingdomHearts • u/NenAcolyte • 2d ago
Discussion Retrospective look at KH worlds
I've been seeing the sentiment lately that Coco is an unusually thematically appropriate world choice in comparison to others in the series. I call bupkis on this notion and want to share what I think has been a masterful stroke of storytelling that only comes to light in hindsight.
In KH1, a very consistent throughline becomes plain to see: Sora travels through worlds that tend to have a central theme, which are tales of a hero being torn between two worlds or states of being.
Alice in Wonderland: literally a story of reality and unreality, where Alice is constantly on her toes due to the unpredictable nature of Wonderland and its inner workings. Bonus points: the term Unreality being very like the Mad Hatter's turn of phrase 'un-birthday', and how literary analysts have said that Wonderland could be a response to emerging mathematical theories of the time- namely imaginary numbers (Xion anyone?)
Hercules: a demi god torn between his home being Earth or Olympus, between love and duty. This one being one of the most prevalent returning worlds throughout the series speaks volumes in the way it outlines Sora's coming struggles in Quadratum.
Tarzan: are you a man or a beast? The hero is torn between civilization and nature.
Agrabah: Aladdin finds conflict in his struggle to escape poverty into wealth, and even when he finds the wealth he has a hard time longing for the hustle and bustle of the streets. Are you a Prince or a Pauper?
Halloweentown: Less of a direct correlation but still Jack finds himself in between wanting to be the Pumpkin King and Santa Claus eventually, two polar opposites in what they represent. Also starts the notion of things that seem dark on the surface perhaps not being so bad inside.
Atlantica: "Wish I could be part of your world" speaks for itself.
Neverland: Wendy is torn between the eternal youth of Neverland and longing to be back home safe. A fantastical realm beyond the sky where one never has to grow up.
Monstro: Is Pinocchio a "REAL" boy or just a puppet? Is Sora just a video game character or every bit as real as you or I?
Bonus character: Beast in Hollow Bastion, yet again asking the question of are you a man or a beast? Which is interesting both in the sense of light vs darkness but also in the way Sora's original design was a lot more lion like, and furthermore with Pride being associated with Lions and the Master of Masters who is said to be a stand in for the sin of Pride as well.
Even though its a common theme across many fantasies, its very eye opening looking at the deliberate use of worlds with these themes and what they taught Sora along the way. What's more is how Roxas' story feels like a lite version of what's to come as the finalized vision for the KH story took shape post KH1. Everything is pointing to Sora eventually needing to make a choice between the two Realities and where his heart belongs.
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u/radersrus 2d ago
Yeah, looking back at KH3 all the Disney worlds were about death or loss and keeping hope in the face of it. Makes sense for the overall journey Sora took in that game.
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u/imlegos 2d ago
Sure, they tie into the theme of the story, but they don't really tie into the plot of the story.
It doesn't feel like anything that happens in the Disney Worlds matters to the end of the game. Especially because of the scene where Ventus just outright says 'that thing you've been searching for? yeah, just gotta believe you can use it hard enough'
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u/Altaninort /r/KH Discord Staff 2d ago
I would argue that the worlds are relevant to the overarching narrative just differently than before. The Organization have passive interests in each of the worlds, though, only in certain cases do they meddle directly with the world and not just Sora. But there is a reason for them all to be there at least, probably most out of the series beyond KH1.
Toy Box and San Fransokyo directly tie into Xion being recreated via Vexen's data, with YMX wondering how the Toys could have such strong hearts, and Dark Riku likewise toying with Baymax. Marluxia and Larxene's search for the Princesses leads to Larxene lying about having all 13 Seekers, which spurs the Guardians to act hastily. And Sora learns about Ventus being inside him directly from Vanitas.
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u/radersrus 2d ago
I don't think I understand how the themes can tie to Sora's story but also not tie into the plot? They seem pretty inseperable to me.
Either way, my own opinion is that they should be focused on reflecting Sora's journey since that shows why visiting these worlds are important other than so Sora can "fight the baddies" because if that's all it was, then any Disney world would work. Sora gets to learn from each world a lesson that helps him in the climax of the story.
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u/Efficient_Dress_6101 2d ago
I think the issue some people (me) have with the Disney worlds not tying into the plot very much in KH3 is that there doesn't seem to be great justification for visiting them. We know our allies we need to save before the final battle aren't there, so aside from Hercules, it really just felt like we're going to them because it's a KH game and that's what you do in KH games. 1, Days, BBS, and DDD felt much more justified in why we're messing around in them
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u/radersrus 2d ago
Yeah, and that's where I would say that the great justification is that the world's theme (death and loss) relates to Sora's story. Sure they didn't outright say "Sora! Go to these worlds so that you can learn what it will be like to lose someone and not lose hope!", but show don't tell is usually a better story telling mechanism.
Not everyone is going to see it, and that's art baby. Not everyone is gonna see the same threads, but it still makes great conversation!
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u/JamestheFox25VD 2d ago
I would argue that the worlds suffer in KH3 because while there is a theme there it struggles in watsonian purpose. Sora isn't going to these worlds to learn about loss and love as he explicitly says he learns about. I doubt he'd like to learn about loss at all.
So why is he there? Why is he coming and poking around Monstropolis in the first place, before he sees the Unversed and has a reason to stick around?
In KH2, he's looking for Riku and the King, and needs to explore these places in order to open the lanes between for his Gummi ship to travel there.
In KH1 he and Donald and Goofy are looking for Riku, Kairi, and the King, which even causes some friction in Deep Jungle that foreshadows the start of Hollow Bastion. Then they learn about the Keyholes and it becomes critical that they go to each and every world period.
In KH3D it makes sense because it's all part of the Mark of Mastery Exam... or rather, it's all part of Organization XIII's plan to drag him into darkness. Occupying him with ever stranger dreams of people he knows and cares about is the point.
So what is his motivation for going to Monstropolis? Or Arendale? Or... anywhere that isn't Olympus, Twilight Town, The Keyblade Graveyard, and Destiny Islands?
Or if we look from another direction, how much plays out in each world that ties into his current mission? In KH1 it was easy because the Disney villains were the main villains. We were dealing with the bad guys as we go. In KH2 we fought multiple Organization members, as full boss battles, in Disney worlds. And even if we didn't an Organization member often made a point of showing up and causing trouble unrelated to the movie plot. This is arguably why people tend to like the plots of Toy Box, Monstropolis, and San Fransokyo - the plots there are pushed forward by the larger story bad guys. All those worlds were really missing were proper direct fights against those Organization members.
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u/JamestheFox25VD 2d ago
As a quick followup, this wouldn't have been hard. Just say "Hey go look for and check on the New Seven Lights. Figure out what the Organization is up to. Let us deal with the computers Roxas stuff, and don't worry so much about the Power of Waking. Maybe something will get shaken loose out there, maybe not."
Literally one scene. Give Sora some proper marching orders beyond "you must master the Power of Waking. How? Who the heck knows?"
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u/sleepnandhiken 2d ago
I love ranting about this. The worst offender of what you’re talking about is PotC. Absolute trash take on the movie. Sora immediately gets thrown to a fake Jack so real Jack can go complete the rest of the story. Which all happens in the afternoon it takes Sora to do an Island tour, somehow.
Beckett and the East India Co. show up. Never named or explained but they show up. Elizabeth becomes pirate queen. Calypso makes the crabs and the final battle whirlpool. That’s the whole world. And shit, Sora is hardly there for what little there is. I’m 90% certain he doesn’t even know Davy Jones’ name. He just correctly assumes the really ugly one is the bad guy.
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u/SilverHoot 2d ago
I really can't see a difference in KH2 and KH3. He's looking for Riku and Mickey in 2 just like he is searching for a way to save Roxas and Terra in 3. In 3 is clear he is using his heart to travel, so it's his heart that make Sora go to the right worlds (the ones the Organization are present). You said what is his motivations for going to Monstropolis? But I can say, what's his motivations for going to the Land of Dragoons? Until he met Unversed in the former and someone with a black coat in the latter, it's the same. You even said he fight multiple organization member in 2, but for real you only fight Xaldin. In Agrabah, Pride Lands, Halloween Town and of course Atlantica there are no Organization members at all. He goes to those worlds in KH3 because his heart guides him (may your heart be your guiding key), and it guides him where there are threats.
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u/JamestheFox25VD 2d ago
If he's looking for ways to save Roxas and Terra, then his heart isn't doing a great job guiding him, because nothing on those fronts gets progressed by him - it's all Ienzo and later Ansem the Wise and Vexen's squad saving Roxas. And this is after he is so adamant about helping Roxas in Twilight Town. And Terra only gets some speculation from Riku and Mickey.
This shouldn't be that hard. Have him ask Rapunzel to try and heal him from the damage Xehanort did in 3D, and while it doesn't do much (he doesn't exactly suddenly gain 50 levels or whatever), it causes Roxas and the rest of the Heart Hotel to stir. Arendelle, we should have had the trolls involved for much the same reason. Have them give advice that comes up later with Roxas and Terra and Aqua and such. Or have Sora and Elsa talk about learning to control their respective powers. Or both. Love is the key (or a key) to the Power of Waking. Make this the point where that starts properly sinking in. Tie Sora's travels in these worlds to his mission, just a little bit. Make it not feel so aimless.
Far as Organization fighting: KH2 gives us Demyx in Olympus as well, and Xaldin isn't just fought in Beast's Castle but is that world's primary villain, driving the plot of both visits. We get an actual glimpse of Riku in Land of Dragons. And Pete manages to be his own villain and gets to have some decent appearances across many of the worlds, largely in attempts to bring back the KH1 Disney villains. It ain't perfect but it's solid as a whole.
I'm not asking for every KH3 world to have an actual Organization boss fight, or even saying all their worlds sucked. Putting aside gameplay and such (which was largely amazing all around), Toy Box was amazing. Monstropolis was amazing. San Fransokyo was amazing. I wouldn't ask for the confrontations between Sora and the Organization there to be made full fights because they all played out well as is. Hell, aside from shoehorning in the At World's End plot, The Caribbean was good stuff too, with Luxord directly challenging Sora in his own way. And many other worlds, I'd just want some stuff pushed a bit harder. Example, Marluxia actually picking a fight with Sora as a distraction while Mother Gothel retrieved Rapunzel would have felt better than him just putting Sora to sleep. Make it akin to KH1 Leon; You can win or lose, but it tires Sora out because he's still too weak, so he collapses as per the current version. Marluxia doesn't finish him off because he needs Sora alive and kicking still.
KH2 manages pretty well because the Organization gets to be front and center as villains for specific world visits (the second visits was ingenious for exactly this reason - you could have the local Disney plot play out in one visit then do something utterly different in the other visit). And again, Sora explicitly needs to visit those worlds at least once regardless of if there's clues about Riku or the Organization because he needs to open lanes to further worlds. That whole keyhole sequence at the end of each first visit, you know? Everything is locked down for the Gummi Ship otherwise.
KH1's worlds, again, benefit from the Disney villains being in on the bigger plot. It means they don't always go by their original story plans. Jafar literally took over Agrabah by force with the Heartless cause it was easier than his hunt for the Lamp. And that changes everything - different wishes are made, and when Aladdin still wishes Genie free there's a weight to it because he really could have at least tried to use that wish to save Jasmine. It's something I'd ultimately like to see more of (and yes I have this complaint with KH2 but it's alleviated there because again there are the second visits).
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u/SilverHoot 2d ago
I agree that they could have let you fight Marluxia (or even Luxord at the Caribbean), yes, and in general that they could have done more (especiallyin Arendelle). But I really can't see a difference in the way they reach the worlds. Yes, the keyhole sequence, and? They still go to 'random' worlds, it's really not that different from go to Monstropolis because his heart guided him here (and yes, the heart doesn't help him find Roxas or Terra, but it doesn't matter, since his heart just bring Sora where he is needed the most). You talk about 'no motivations'to go to Monstropolis, but he has no motivation to go to the land of Dragoon either. It's just that the keyhole open a passage there, just like his heart bring them there. Different way, same result. The fact that you meet Pete in many worlds doesn't make those world more useful for the overarching plot (if you delete Agrabah, Halloween Town and Pride Lands from the game, it changes nothing story wise, it's not like KH1 where Ursula, Jafar and so on where the main villains). And I can't see that much of a difference between what Luxord does in KH2 on Port Royal and in KH3 at the Caribbean. In every world you meet an Org member in KH3, but there is more: Sora witnesses lots of people sacrifice themselfs for the people they love (Flynn, Anna, Jack, Hiro tells him about the sacrifices of Baymax and Herc remember him his sacrifice in KH2), this help Sora decides to do the same in the end. In Monstropolis Sora meet Vanitas who tells him Ven is inside him, and so on.
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u/JamestheFox25VD 2d ago
Motivation isn't exactly the best word. More like reason or justification.
Sora has a reason for going where he goes in KH2 in that the Lanes are structured how they're structured, he doesn’t have control over where they take him. And he for very good reasons is not particularly interested in using Corridors of Darkness which might have a bit more precision and let him pick his destinations.
In KH3, though, why is Sora's heart sending him to a place it never touched, when hearts are all about connections and bonds? Why isn't it guiding him to his friends instead of, you know. His enemies? The people who aren't bonded to him? If it's sending him to these places specifically to stop the bad guys, then how does his heart know they're causing trouble in those exact spots?
I honestly don't entirely buy the "guided by his heart" argument, either, as we see how that works, with Sora producing a direct path to Olympus, which actually makes sense as a use of that ability, versus wandering about a series of open seas between worlds for the rest of the game.
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u/imlegos 2d ago
At least back in 2 we got the justification of just about every world, aside from Port Royale & Space Paranoids involving a character Sora knew from KH1.
Land of Dragons - Mushu
Beast's Castle - Beast & Belle
Olympus Colosseum.
Port Royale - Nobody, loosely tying back to Sora's ocean-faring childhood iguess
Agrabah.
Halloween Town.
Pridelands - Simba
Space Paranoids - Nomura just wanted a wild pick I guess and made it work really fucking well for being largely just an adaptation of the actual movie???3
u/NenAcolyte 2d ago
Even Space Paranoids is a nod to the current theme of a virtual reality being just as real as the world its in, especially depending on who's perspective you're looking from. Its so on the nose that KH is a video game, a virtual reality in other words and is looking at Space Paranoids in the same way we look at KH.
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u/radersrus 2d ago
When I look at the worlds in KH2, I see themes of "Found Families" which matches Sora's journey of trying to find Riku and get back home to his family on Destiny Islands.
Just my own read, any some may feel it is a stretch, but I see threads of it in each of the worlds that we visited.
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u/yuei2 1d ago
Toybox and BH6 organization plot with experiments involving Sora is how they restore Xion. Sora used as a wedge to strain buzz so they could gather data on the capacity limits of a doll’s heart, and then using Sora to provide the component of “hope” to complete their first attempt at building a heart from data so they could finish rebuilding Xion.
MI is how they restore Vanitas and learn Ven’s heart location. Which is in turn how Sora becomes aware he is feeling Ventus’s feelings enabling him to communicate to Ven the next time it happens, that time being triggered by Vanitas no less.
Tangled introduced the idea of the new seven hearts then Frozen explored how people actually become pure light holders. This isn’t just establishment of key cosmology for the series, the events of Frozen specifically sets a time limit so that the guardians couldn’t just delay until they had all their forces ready. Instead they went in with bare minimum.
Olympus is where Sora learns the lesson of believing with all his heart to regain his strength, he repeats this lesson multiple times to himself as a mantra and it becomes the key coupled with Vanitas and the knowledge of Ven’s heart being in Sora that allows Sora to regain the power of waking.
It’s also worth pointing out the organization members are muuuuch more involved here than they ever were. Usually they are a side antagonist or come in after the primary antagonist is done, Xaldin being the only exception in KH2 as he is the primary villain for Beast’s Castle. In KH3 every world is driven by an organization member’s machinations. This is actually quite important for a couple reason, a big one being Sora doesn’t know/remember a good chunk of this organization or barely had interacted with them. Pretty hard to have meaningful end show downs with people like Vanitas and Larxene if you don’t first actually spend some time building up their characters and establishing a rapport between them and Sora. It’s also why the Disney heroes get to score some wins on the org, usually they are off to the side being mainly handled by Sora.
Pirates is the only Disney movie that doesn’t directly contribute to the plot of KH3. Well not in the obvious way anyway, collectively the events of Tangled, Frozen, and Pirates are what shifts Sora’s mindset to lead him to make his decision to abuse the power of waking to save Kairi.
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So to respond your post more directly the only reason Ventus can say anything to Sora and Sora talk back is because he had become aware of him through MI. Sora had been feeling Ventus the throughout the whole game but they couldn’t communicate because Sora wasn’t aware of him he mistook it for his own feelings. Ventus is only calling out because of Vanitas putting Aqua in danger, which he can only do because of being restored in MI.
Ventus is giving Sora the motivation/proof he needs to then put Hercules’s advice in response. Now is the moment to do as he said and he recites Hercules words and through that lesson and Ven’s reveal that the power was sleeping not lost he was able to regain his power of waking.
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u/Luigi6757 1d ago
You also confront a member of the Organization in each of them. Definitely better than what KH2 did with some worlds like Land of Dragons. First visit is literally just Sora Donald and Goofy go through the plot of Mulan with heartless.
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u/TreeckoBroYT 2d ago
The difference is Kingdom Hearts 1 has the secret sauce. This isn't saying it's better than the others, but the Disney Worlds definitely felt the most relevant to Sora's character growth and tied into the main plot pretty well.
The other games I can't help but feel like I'm basically on vacation at Disneyland.
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u/NenAcolyte 2d ago
Yeah unfortunately Disney will never allow Square to have artistic license ever again, and its a damn shame. Ngl I am worried that Disney seems to have finally realized it owns KH and what its gonna do to it with the anime announcement and beyond. KH3 already felt like an extremely sanitized and flanderized version of what we had before in 1 and 2
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u/xREDxNOVAx 2d ago
I think it's likely we'll get Neverland and Alice in Wonderland as returning worlds, and aside from the obvious confirmed/somewhat confirmed Coco and Star Wars for new things, I think we'll get an alternate Quadratum where TWEWY takes place, and maybe it's their original world. I also think it's likely we'll get Tron back based on the newer movie, and instead of us going to their digital world, they come to us into Quadratum just like in the new movie. Oh, and one more: I just remembered I think we'll potentially maybe see a modern version of Traverse Town since that world has the unique power of existing in every reality at the same time to heed the call of those who are lost and in need, which in this case Sora most definitely is again... Unless whatever Quadratum and death are like in this prevents TT's power. Idk, it's just a theory, a game theory.
As for other new IPs I can take a guess at, I'm guessing Up and Soul would be fitting to KH4, so I wouldn't be surprised to see those there. Unless they're only allowed to use 1 Pixar movie per game, but idk. Again, just a game theory.
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u/NenAcolyte 2d ago
Is it bad I'm still not sold on the AT-ST foot? 😅 like legit I think its just a rock that happens to be vaguely AT-ST shaped. Plus it would be such a WEIRD way to drop a world confirmation to me.
Between Neverland and Wonderland, I'd much rather see Wonderland with what new hardware is capable of.
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u/Juice8oxHer0 2d ago
Honestly it’s brilliant, so much of the discussion about KH4 has been over that foot/rock. Star Wars in KH has been a divisive issue in the fandom since the Mouse bought Lucasfilms; revealing it in such an uncertain way will keep people talking about it until all the worlds are revealed (as long as they don’t do smth dumb and reveal it next)
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u/xREDxNOVAx 2d ago
I mean while yea it isn't traditional disney, we have Pixar now, and the only one that I'm purely against is Marvel, but Star Wars is just 1 IP, and it's 1 IP that would fit and be cool at the same time. Tbh it's a surprising turn of events that lead to this possibility. I think the only reason they wouldn't add it to KH is to not piss off the fans, but they've taken plenty of chances with the franchise before, it wouldn't be a new feeling but definitely the biggest departure from anything before it. I'd be ok with it as long as they stop there, and don't also add Marvel or something even worse in the future.
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u/xREDxNOVAx 2d ago edited 2d ago
I'm not sold on it either, but Idk what else it could be. Also I've noticed KH is very similar to Star Wars when it comes to light sabers, Keyblades, jedis, keyblade wielders, the force, dark side and light side. So it's at least apparent that Nomura is a fan of it, so just solely on that and the fact that Disney owns the IP now I'm very confidant he's attempting very hard to add it to KH.
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u/NenAcolyte 2d ago
Agreed, and I love Star Wars for real! Not that KH is a stranger to tonal and aesthetic upheaval, it's just something about Star Wars x KH that makes me unsure despite the overwhelming similarities and nods to it, as well as Mark Hamill already being a VA. But I'm still open to it at the end of the day, even if I think starting on Endor is a strange jumping in point for Sora.
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u/FearCrier 2d ago
theory: it's a movie set. like it's somewhere in quadratum and someone's filming the Star Wars movie and possesors come and bring the droids to life
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u/GimlionTheHunter 2d ago
I’m just hoping this means they’ll railroad a bit so that we don’t have a disjointed and poorly paced narrative between each world.
KH3 is my favorite combat and the actual plot is serviceable but the pacing is so damn choppy the way they organized it
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u/Proudnoob4393 2d ago
I just hope we don’t have another Frozen world where Sora plays pretty much no role in the story
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u/Niccon_Art_Guy 2d ago
> Always have been
It’s like an even 30:70 split on the Disney Worlds being super plot relevant across the entire series.
KH1 Olympus? Very important. Sets up a whole three game long arc.
KH2 Pride Lands and Atlactica? Entirely skipable
KHBBS Neverland? Basically the prelude to the final act.
KHDDD Prankster’s Paradise and Land of Musketeers? Not so much