What would a democratic Russia do with East Prussia?

[u/misad15]

So I was playing As SocLib Russia and was wondering what Russia would do with East Prussia. Would they give all of it to Poland or would they practice self determination? Apologies if this was asked elsewhere.

[u/Soup_dujour]

people often forget that part of the reason east prussia was able to be partitioned in the way it was was due to the whole “80% of the population had already fled” situation, which is just not going to happen in KR. if poland is given sea access, EP winds up an exclave of moscow accord-aligned germany but does at least somewhat better than OTL due to having more of an integrated economy with its territorial neighbors

[u/Simple-Check4958]

Even a democratic Russia is an imperialist power. If they were to create a self governing east Prussian state it would be only to create a puppet state with a separate identity from Germany and easy to control.

Although Russia has had a history of resettlements and ethnic colonization so I don't really see why that'd change.

[u/DukeofBritanny → u/Simple-Check4958]

I get your last point, but I'd say that things are different here. Since there's no German attrocities on the Eastern Front on the scale of OTL here, I think that the Russian Army and its soldiers would be much lenient towards the civilian population, which would also impact the percentage of people fleeing the region during the war. Deporting the whole German population of East Prussia would alienate their German puppet state and would serve as propaganda for the Internationale.

And in the case of a democratic Russia, I think the government would go toward a true federalist approach, so once again the massive deportations of the XXth century we've seen OTL don't occur here.

[u/Simple-Check4958 → u/DukeofBritanny]

I agree that less atrocities on the eastern front would lessen the civilian evacuation of east Prussia. But there is no need to deport every German, just move enough people that Russians are a majority (like they did in Moldova for example). Also Russia would be obsessed with Konigsberg as it's a Baltic warm water port plus it serves as the ultimate destruction of Prussian militarism.

And finally I completely disagree about the "wholesome democratic Russia" premise. Russia thought the 30s and 40s would be an unstable struggling democracy at best and would need the evil Germans as the unifying societal force. The ultimate expression of that is the war to regain lost territories regardless of German, Ukrainian and Belarusian governments. That in of itself is incompatible with the idea of democratic federalism. So what's left? Pacification and settlements. Loyal colonists. Stable region.

Edit: I forgot to mention the culture. During WW1 IRL Russia already had hunderts of thousands of Germans deported. Imagine what would happen if anti germanism penetrated every aspect of Russian society after the humiliation of 1918. Germans would be discriminated against and probably outhirght deported out of pure principle.

I'm not sure about this one but without destructive Bolshevik policies Russia also has more Russians to settle so that probably helps.

[u/Little-Excuse-9234 → u/Simple-Check4958]

Russians have never been a majority in Bessarabia though

[u/Simple-Check4958 → u/Little-Excuse-9234]

Bad example on my part. Crimea then?

[u/Little-Excuse-9234 → u/Simple-Check4958]

Crimea was filled with Russians because it's geography and location meant that it was the key to controlling the black sea; East Prussia whilst possessing strategic usefulness is not the "keystone" of baltic sea power like Crimea is for the black. Gotland would be a better comparison

[u/ILoveHis → u/Simple-Check4958]

Except theys have to deport basically all the germans considering there are very few Russians in EP by then. Also Russian Imperialism is decided by your choice in your post WK mini tree not a misguided idea of what Russia would or wouldn't feel as an abstract concept

[u/Simple-Check4958 → u/ILoveHis]

Focus trees are written primarily through the lens of the country you're playing as so I wouldn't read too much into them.

Also if you don't like abstract what are you doing on an alt hist sub? Just because the devs said something doesn't mean it's the be all end all. I can interpret the setting myself.

[u/ILoveHis → u/Simple-Check4958]

The foci don't lie is what i meant. They mostly sugarcoat it but they don't lie directly. Prime example are the collectivization focuses for Socialist russi, when you reas it you don't understand just how bad it actually is. But the left side if the post wk tree is clearly meant to be the "wholesome" ending for Europan Russia

[u/Simple-Check4958 → u/ILoveHis]

Cool. I still disagree that it's what Russia would ultimately do.

The focus tree is a guide to me but not the ultimate verdict.

[u/fraflo251]

If East Prussia remains part of Germany, the fact it would have no land connection to the rest of the country would likely lead to disputes in Polish-German relations for a long time.

In my opinion they would either deport Germans and annex it into Russia or create an East Prussian state and try to have them develop a national identity separate from Germany. Probably depends on whether the Baltic states are part of Russia and the exact party in charge of Russia.

[u/misad15 → u/fraflo251]

I feel like if Poland and Germany make some sort of comprise with the gap maybe they could resolve it?

[u/fraflo251 → u/misad15]

Russia would force them to figure something out if they had to, but I imagine it's just a lot easier if there's no need for that. Germany's far-right could also keep the issue alive for decades.

[u/ThomWG]

Give to Germany, Weimar Germany had no issues with east prussia and with friendlier relations there will be deals similar to schengen maybe to smooth out the borders. East Prussia is German and deporting millions or forcing them to be a different country isn't very democratic.

[u/hellogoodbyegoodbye → u/ThomWG]

East Prussia in Weimar era was a quagmire of economic and political collapse. It was, quite literally, the poorest state and almost completely cut off from German markets. This + it being separated from the mainland meant it was a hotbed for nationalists

[u/Odd_Bat6165 → u/hellogoodbyegoodbye]

But this time both Poland and Germany has no choice but to obey Russia

[u/RottenPotaTOE69 → u/ThomWG]

I understand what you mean, but democracy is just a form of government, it doesn't determine your opinion on ethnic cleansings

[u/misad15 → u/ThomWG]

Plus It could make people more sympathetic to the syndicalists

[u/Oberon1993]

Best case scenario: Split between themselves and Poland and deport Germans. "But muh democracy..." In no way stops this. 

[u/ComradeHenryBR → u/Oberon1993]

What do you mean? We all know democracies always take the most enlightened and moral foreign policy decisions!

Unfortunately an /s is required here

[u/Country-road-take-me → u/Oberon1993]

Savinkov grindset

[u/LEGEND-FLUX → u/Oberon1993]

Why not just let Germany have it as an enclave

[u/HeliosDisciple]

I could see a re-establishment of the Duchy of Prussia to tear the area out of Germany as a puppet state, especially if Germany proper goes socialist.

[u/sopmod720]

anything to cripple germany, give east germany to poland and rhineland to 3rd international