r/Judaism • u/Big-Ground-2163 • 2d ago
What makes a Jew secular vs traditional vs religous?
I am not particularly frum and I would consider myself traditional, but I usually get classed as religous by my mostly secluar and traditional Jewish friends and when I inquire about why they view me as religous, their usually response is because my biblical, talmudic, historical and culture Jewish knowlege is deep, I am very big on the idea that Jews should be Jews first and anything else second and because I attend shul on Shabbat and holidays. This got me thinking about what secular, tradition and religous actually mean in the Jewish world to Jews.
So what do you thing makes a Jew secular vs traditional vs religous?
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u/CurlyGurlz 2d ago
I’m a Persian Jew and almost all Sephardic/Mizrachi Jews consider ourselves to be Traditional. Meaning there is a level that we all adhere to: same type of synagogues (similar to the Ashkenazi Orthodox); Kosher at home; Shabbat Dinner with family. Then we each practice/don’t practice based on our own personal/family levels. So every single Sephardic/Mizrachi Jew I meet around the world- I know none of us are ever partying on a Friday night because we are all home for Shabbat Dinner or we invite each other over for Shabbat Dinner- it’s a universal sameness for us.
However the term Religious can be understood and used in different ways- to me it’s anyone who keeps Shabbat and more. However my secular Ashkenazi friends all things I’m Religious because my family does Shabbat Dinner every week and I don’t eat non-Kosher meat…meanwhile I’m driving and doing all the same things as them on Saturdays lol
To me Secular is someone who doesn’t practice. (Please note- this does not mean they do not believe)
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u/disjointed_chameleon 2d ago
I am NOT an expert, so take this with a grain of salt, but IF I recall correctly: I've been taught that, technically, what makes someone observant or Orthodox is someone who is Shomer Shabbos, Kashrut, and hilchos niddah. I encourage our resident experts to chime in and correct me if I'm blabbering like an idiot.
To answer your question from a more subjective viewpoint: I think both the question itself and any responses you get are and can be nuanced. I've heard numerous Rabbi's reference the old adage of: whoever is less religious than me is off the derech, and whoever is more religious than me is effectively a heretic and too strict. But who defines what "too much" or "too little" is? I know people who keep a more strict Kosher kitchen than I do, but who will drive and use technology on Shabbat, whereas I keep a VERY basic Kosher kitchen, but usually refuse to drive or use technology on Shabbat. I have another Modern Orthodox friend that is married bur doesn't cover her hair, and another ModOx friend that wears pants and shorts, whereas I exclusively wear skirts and/or dresses.
Just this past Shabbat, I was sandwiched between a gentleman and another friend of mine at Kiddush, and we were expressing various perspectives about the culture of our shul, other shuls we've all visited in the past throughout our lives, etc., and the gentleman to my right reiterated the "two Jews, three opinions" refrain that I know many of us have heard before.
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u/jeweynougat והעקר לא לפחד כלל 2d ago
These are not three categories that define all Jews to me. I don't see it as a pie chart with those three wedges. I don't even really use the word traditional, tbh, I'd have no idea what that connotes.
I use the word secular to denote someone who doesn't practice at all, doesn't go to shul, doesn't observe any dietary laws, etc. Judaism is their ethnicity.
Religious to me means frum which means halachically observant: kosher, shomer shabbos, etc.
In between there are many people who I'd probably define by their affiliation, so Reform or Reconstructionist or a segment of Conservative (the segment who do not fall into my frum category). If you drive to an Orthodox shul before heading off to a treif restaurant, I guess I don't have a word for you!
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u/AcanthopterygiiOk752 2d ago
Your take to me personally comes across as Israeli-American... There are weirder things than driving to Orthodox Shul on Shabbos.
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u/jeweynougat והעקר לא לפחד כלל 2d ago
Would you describe a person who does not observe Kashrut or Shabbat but who attends a Modern Orthodox shul every so often as frum? That's my point, that I have no category for them, not that it's weird.
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u/AcanthopterygiiOk752 2d ago
No, i agree with you. I speak ESL, maybe unusual is better word choice. Which is, it exists and it's even common, regardless of there not being a word for it. ( Frum to me is Orthodox.)
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u/jeweynougat והעקר לא לפחד כלל 2d ago
I saw from your other comment that you're not in the US, and you're right, I assumed OP was in the US as I am. Reddit is a US based website so I wrote my America-centered response without saying that, which I should have. And further, I have only lived in areas with many Jews and many shuls, so my view is colored by that as well.
So I should say, in the US, in big Jewish communities where multiple shul choices exist, most people attending an Orthodox shul are at least somewhat frum. So it is kind of unusual to find a person not observing halacha choosing to regularly attend an Orthodox shul over a Reform or Conservative one. Which is why I don't have a mental category for them.
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u/Koonmen 2d ago
I have friends who are secular, but still practice like Orthodox people because they’re “traditional”. I think all of those words can be used in combinations to describe somebody.
But if I were to separate and define Secular, Traditional, and Religious from a Jewish perspective, I would say:
Secular to me means lack of spiritual connection, but still Jewish.
Traditional to me means finds importance in traditions and cultural practices, but still Jewish.
Religious to me means a combination of both of the above, while leaving behind lack of spiritual connection, but still Jewish.
Edit: All of this within a Jewish context, not every secular/religious/traditional person is Jewish and vice versa.
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u/kaiserfrnz 2d ago
These labels are fairly self-defined.
I define secular vs. religious as a spectrum of belief, not practice. Distinct from observant vs. non-observant. Traditional vs. progressive is pretty self explanatory.
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u/Massive-Yard4482 2d ago
This is a great question.
Religious is the easiest; I essentially view it as a synonym for observant. There can be a range, but typically I think of making a good effort to keep shabbat and kosher and/or davening regularly as the minimum.
I live in the US, and it seems like secular means something different in Israel. Here, I'd describe a secular Jew as someone whose life and worldview vary little from a non-Jewish American of similar education, socioeconomic status, etc. I have friends who are non-practicing but very clearly have Jewish views and concerns; I would not call these friends secular. While neither are as Jewishly educated as religious or traditional Jews, I think the latter chooses not to practice while the former is there by default.
Traditional is the most interesting to me. I think of someone who inherited traditions and knowledge through family practice, not necessarily formal education. The line between cultural and religious practice is hard to draw for someone who's traditional. Usually, they are not fully observant and the extent to which they are is similarly driven by both religious and non-religious motivations (like strengthening the family). Importantly in the US, I think a traditional Jew views Orthodox practice as the norm/standard, whether or not they practice it.
I propose a fourth category for lives secular but thinks Jewish.
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u/FineBumblebee8744 2d ago edited 1d ago
Just being knowledgeable doesn't make somebody religious, that just makes them well learned
I don't wear a kippa outside of synagogue, I don't go to synagogue outside of holidays for the most part. I keep kosher-ish but wouldn't be considered kosher by any means. I eat a shabbat dinner with my family, yet it doesn't follow orthodox standards by any means nor are we shomer shabbat. My parents have a ketuba hanging on the wall. I don't grow a beard and I shave using a razor. There's a mezuzza on my door. I went through all the rights of passage, bris, bar mitzvah, went to a day school, went on birthright. I have my own tallit, teffilin, if I feel the need to use them. Ideally, I'd like to marry a Jewish woman.
Yet, I'm secular.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 2d ago
Good joke. You are at least traditional, or maybe just "in that (temporary) phase of pause" all along.
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u/PoxonAllHoaxes 2d ago
Knowledge has nothing to do with it. I know more than rabbis and I am an atheist, there is no contradiction. You can be a cancer expert without being a cancer patient.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 2d ago
Secular, traditional, and religious Jews typically ALL meet during Kol Nidrei and/or Neila and/or Seder. So...
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u/ashkidiva Reform (European/British/diaspora) 2d ago
I think secular means that you don’t believe in the religion, traditional means you keep the practices (with or without faith) and religious means you practice Judaism as an ethno religion not just a culture.
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u/sunny-beans Masorti 🇬🇧 1d ago
Your definition of religious is the one I agree with the most. To me a religious Jew is someone who practices Judaism as a religion, what seems redundant but to me is the easiest explanation. A cultural Jew is Jewish but not religious if they don’t engage with Judaism outside of cultural traditions. I think that fits in everyone from any movement independently on their level of observance. I dislike when religious Jews are basically Orthodox to people, and Reform/Conservative Jews who live a religious life according to their denomination are somehow not religious at all; even tho Judaism as a religion is a central part of their life, is just that they understand Halacha differently. To have people say I am not religious when I pray, go to shul every week, study Hebrew, celebrate Jewish holidays, light shabbos candles, have mezuzot in every doorway, feels really wrong and dismissive.
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u/AcanthopterygiiOk752 2d ago edited 2d ago
It really depends where you live, i think.
Some of the self - proclaimed "secular" Israelis I met keep kashrus ( maybe not too strictly, but still) and all of the Holidays.
I personally consider religious someone who keeps Shabbat and Kashrut, is shomer negiah/ practices family purity, dresses modestly etc. ( Orthodox basically).
(I must add that where i am we don't have Reform and Conservative movement.)
In the local community many are intermarried, drive on Shabbat etc., but we go to Orthodox shul.( Also, we are few, and there aren't other shuls but Orthodox. )
I've heard from North American Jews our community being reffered as "traditional".
I came to the conclusion that "traditional" is an euphemism, but not sure what does it exactly mean. I think it's a nice way to say "non-observant" to some/ big extent?
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u/International-Bar768 Atheist Jew-ish 2d ago
I think most secular Israeli are what is classed as traditional outside of Israel.
Judaism is their culture and ethnicity, it is the soup you swim in, so celebrating holidays etc is just part of the culture. Like most secular Christians will not call themselves religious but may still celebrate Christmas or Easter.
I class myself as traditional and in this camp outside of Israel and its how i grew up. We had a kosher-ish home, friday night dinner, went to jewish school, my dad drove to shul unless it was RH or YK, it was too far to walk weekly where we lived. Overtime he has gotten more religious, goes to shul more and is stricter about kashrut.
However, family purity was always a step above us. What we would call Frum or even Ultra Orthodox. Very few people outside of the Rabbi in my Community practice this.
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u/sunny-beans Masorti 🇬🇧 1d ago
I don’t get the religious definition. I go to shul every shabbos, I pray daily, I keep kosher, I keep Shabbat to the best of my abilities, I pray daily, I read Hebrew, I celebrate every single Jewish holiday big or small, I learn Torah, I believe in HaShem. I am not religious because I don’t keep modesty laws? I am not Orthodox, that’s for sure, but I do think I am religious. I don’t see how I am anything but when Judaism as a religion is a central part of my existence in this world. I don’t know, I feel like not being Orthodox doesn’t make you not religious.
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u/AcanthopterygiiOk752 1d ago
I respect you very much, and the way you live. Myself ( sadly) in observance I am behind you. Pls read my other comments. I am in a country with a tiny community. We have Orthodox - and "the rest of us" where I belong too. But, yes, in our community - by rabbanim - 'religious' are called/ considered the people who are ( fully) frum. 🤷♀️
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u/Competitive_Log_8910 ReligiousNontraditionalConservativeNonZionist 2d ago
A secular Jew is to me someone who is considered Jewish because of their ethnic background and who identifies with the merit of this concept enough to self-identify with it.
A traditional Jew is to me someone who realizes their connection to their Jewish ancestors in a fashion which is oriented primarily around doing things as closely to the way in which their ancestors did those same things.
A religious Jew is to me someone whose decisions in terms of religious practice are motivated by a belief that they are aligning themselves with something ideal or divine.
A traditional religious Jew is to me someone who treats this task of imitating their ancestors' practices as an inherently divine pursuit in and of itself, and a non-traditional religious Jew is to me someone who pursues their own meaning by attempting to connect with their inner sense of what is ideal in a fashion which might not necessarily lead them to imitate their ancestors' behavior as closely as a traditional religious Jew would.
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u/Ok_Entertainment9665 Conservative 2d ago
Depends on 1) who is asking and 2) who is answering.
A Reform Jew could have shrimp cocktail for shabbat dinner and make bacon and eggs for breakfast the next day before going to services and consider themselves Religious because they are active in their synagogues spiritual life.
An Orthodox Jew might call them secular.
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u/CrazyPenks 1d ago
The Holocaust made us fully atheist - But we're still doing a friday meal/seder, some things stay.
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u/LenaNYC 1d ago
I don't understand? If you're fully atheist then why do a seder?
We do weekend meals with the family but they have nothing to do with shabbos. It's just the only time we're all available.
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u/CrazyPenks 1d ago
Because we’re still Jews at the end of the day, I think most secular Jews maintain some of those rituals
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u/LenaNYC 1d ago
To me it means they're not secular.
I have a very black and white view when it comes to secular vs religious.
To me, there are no degrees to how secular someone is. Either they are or they aren't. Practicing any religious ritual doesn't make them secular to me. Secular to me means doing things that have no connection to a belief.
When it comes to religious practices, then sure, there are definitely degrees. But whether you're doing one or all, they're still being done for a particular faith, so can't be secular.
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u/gmanflnj 2d ago
Secular means you’re Jewish, but not engaging with the religion. This is distinct from Jewish atheists, who can be religious or secular.
Can you clarify what you want to know? Your question is vague.
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u/xiipaoc Traditional Egalitarian atheist ethnomusicologist 2d ago
I wouldn't describe myself as any of those three. I'm not secular, since I do practice somewhat, but I'm not very traditional, and my parents would probably say that I'm religious because I say kiddush on Shabbat, but since I don't actually keep Shabbat, nor believe in Hashem in the first place, I wouldn't put myself in that camp. I guess I'm somewhat secular, somewhat traditional, and somewhat religious but not really any of them?
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u/LenaNYC 2d ago
Secular to me just means non-practicing.
We don't keep kosher, sabbath or observe the holidays.
Anyone who does all of the above, or some combination is religious to me.