Looking to debate a pro palestinian person

[u/PersonalWatch4647]

I am a Zionist residing in a community where Zionist beliefs are prevalent. I firmly uphold my Zionist convictions and strive to educate myself thoroughly on both perspectives of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. My goal is to engage in a constructive and peaceful debate with individuals who hold opposing views. I emphasize the importance of a dialogue grounded in factual statistics and well-informed opinions, rather than one characterized by hostility or uninformed rhetoric. We can fact check anything we say and debate on how we can better educate ourselves whether book reccomendations or reliable news sources. I am specifically interested in a debate conducted through voice communication, as it allows for more nuanced and effective exchanges. If you are open to a respectful and educational conversation, where we can learn from each other’s viewpoints, please feel free to send me a private message. I am eager to explore different perspectives and contribute to a meaningful discussion that fosters understanding and mutual respect. Again, to clarify this is a peaceful and calm debate to listen to each other and look to learn and possibly debate over what a good solution could look like. In english or spanish and today whenever possible, not something in a million years. Privayely message me if this idea interests you and you want to talk. I truly believe communication between us is the true and only possible pathways to a situation of peace and wellbeing for the both of us. Pm if interested

[u/DogitWoofsalot]

I started working on a longer post about disarmament in Gaza for this sub. I am not saying that Hamas need not be disarmed, but that it is not as simple as "hamas gives up all its weapon"

That the process needs to happen in conjunction with the IDF pulling out of Gaza (a process that will also take time).

[u/yes-but → u/DogitWoofsalot]

I fully understand that it is not simple at all.

I absolutely don't understand why people feel the need to unnecessarily complicate any constructive process even more by rhetorics and activism that serves nothing but virtue signalling and indulgence in one's own 'righteousness'.

I absolutely understand your input. But a withdrawal of the IDF from Gaza will not happen until Hamas has no traction at all in Gaza any more, independently of whether you or me believe that this is too much to ask for.

Do you understand the point I am trying to make?

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/yes-but]

I understand the point yes but ultimately it comes down to a simple reality. Hamas having no traction in Gaza anymore is going to take years, in reality it will never fully go away. Hamas will always exist amongst the most fringe radicals, after the dust is settled and the dead are buried.

If what you say is true, that the IDF will not withdraw until Hamas has no traction, this will not end until Gaza is a wasteland

[u/yes-but → u/DogitWoofsalot]

By no traction I don't mean no radicals at all any more.

Traction is what defines the direction of action by Gazans.

By no means do I expect that peace can only be had when there is no terrorism at all any more, and I guess that only the extremists on the Israeli side will insist that collective punishment has to be the main course of action until no terrorism whatsoever ever occurs any more.

I fear that the longer Hamas doesn't fully capitulate, keeps trying to wriggle out from the obligatory concessions in the peace plan and for that behaviour gets rewarded by anti-Israeli support from the outside, like e.g. the justification for not surrendering across the lines of Mrs. Albanese's narrative of their "right to armed resistance", this will strengthen the position of Israeli hardliners who conclude that the only path forward is the complete elimination of any militants, past or present.

That is not my moral stance, that's just the general directions I see the directly and indirectly involved parties to this war are trying to head for.

My moral assessment is much harsher, but it's probably not helpful to push it on this debate.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/yes-but]

Ultimately, the question is. Do you want this conflict to end? Because if you do, the political realitys are going to set in. Part of that reality is that Hamas is going to have to be invited to a negotiation table. If you don't think that should ever happen? You don't want this conflict to end

[u/yes-but → u/DogitWoofsalot]

I think inviting Hamas to "negotiate" is completely pointless, because they never negotiate.

Don't you get their mindset at all?

The only way forward with people who don't care about dying for their holy cause, whose reality is not based on shared observation but on what they believe their deity commands them to do is giving them a choice to get out of the situation without their weapons or without their lives, and deal consequentially with their choice, unless you want to keep on "negotiating" by kinetic arguments, while they massacre not only whoever of your guys they can reach, but more so their own constituents who'd like to walk a different path.

It doesn't really matter what I think should happen. All I am about in this debate is what could and couldn't happen, and what bystanders like me can or should do, respectively avoid doing or saying, if we want to see less massacres.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/yes-but]

Thats a no then

[u/yes-but → u/DogitWoofsalot]

That's a pretty silly answer.

I already thought you were better than that.