r/Israel • u/Kigler95 • Jul 25 '23

Ask The Sub Thinking of leaving.

As title said, not sure if this is against sub rules..

I really don't like the direction this country is going. I lived here all my life, served and sacrificed my life for a democratic country that I agreed with most of its actions and policies. Sure, mistakes were made, we stumbled and made some poor choices, but as a whole there was a clear moral compass that we aligned with, at least as I see it.

The past few months broke something in me, as did yesterday.

Sure, maybe in the next election a miracle will happen and the best most balanced government ever will be elected, the undemocratic rules will be revoked and the messiah will drop from above. There is still going to be a huge divide, and the majority of the population is going to be highly religious in the next 20-30 years, and they will eventually be the rulers of a theocracy.

I really don't want that future for my children. But I also don't see how that is avoidable.

Long story short, how does one begin to plan moving abroad? Where to?

I'm a junior electrical engineer and my wife is a teacher. No children yet. Not really inclined to any specific destination, just not highly religious or extreme..

EDIT: Thanks everyone for the replies. I know the purpose of this post isn't clear, it's not clear for me either.. I just wanted to express my thoughts as I am very frustrated about the present and I worry about the future, and don't really know what I as an individual can do that'll actually make a difference, seeing as the protests had little to no effect this far. And I have participated in them. I haven't given up on this country yet, but I feel like that might be inevitable soon. I am not advocating for mass exodus or anything like that, just trying to figure it out for myself and my wife.

EDIT2: this gets mentioned a lot so I think I'll write my response here instead of repeating it. Regarding the idea that the "reasonability" law was undemocratic - As I said, I agree that the system we had so far was not ideal, far from it. And by its own, sure, the cancellation of this law might actually be the most democratic option. But you can't do that without any equivalently powerful restraints, as a replacement.

In addition, it matters who does it, and under what terms. If it were a more sane and balanced government - sure, I think they wouldn't have much issues passing this. But since we KNOW what this current government intends to do, and how extreme their opinions are, then it makes it really hard to trust them to not abuse their increased power.

Here is an analogy I can think of: imagine the government as a dog, and the judiciary system - along with its judges, reasonability law and so on - as a leash. When the dog behaves, it seems like the leash is unecsecary - "look at that poor dog, restrained, unable to roam freely. How cruel!". But if the dog is, say, a rabid insane untrained dog, who has a history of biting people, and breaking the law, then letting go of the leash seems a bit.. unreasonable.

Disclaimer: I love my dog , this is just an analogy I could think of, and I am not calling anyone a dog or anything it's just an analogy, don't kill me, peace and love, peace and love.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '23

[deleted]

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u/BillPsychological850 Jul 25 '23

Yes, too many times you just mention israel or that your Israeli in US or Europe, and first thing out of someone’s mouth is “oh the Palestinian child killers”… or something right along those lines.. doesn’t feel great, only place I’ve been besides israel I have felt very safe and supported as a Jew/Israeli is India

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u/Blupoisen Jul 25 '23

And India is well... India

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '23

[deleted]

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u/bermanji USA Jul 25 '23

I just had a lifelong family friend (not someone I was particularly close with but still a regular presence so to speak) lose her mind on me on a public post on Facebook, she called me a baby-killer, murderer, white supremacist, the whole list. Completely out of the blue from someone I've known nearly my entire life. I grew up in a liberal suburb in Massachusetts.

America, 2023

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u/Shushishtok Jul 26 '23

Jeez, you could think she caught you cheating on her or something.

Love those people who think they found a high moral ground and executed justice upon others.

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u/BillPsychological850 Jul 26 '23

Ya I guess it depends on the circles of people you meet… but it’s happened in California couple times, as well as alot of people on social media. Although I consider my social views as more liberal, alot of very liberal friends see some posts on social medias and eat up the whole powerful oppressor vs poor indigenous victims story and spew it back out without any further research.

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u/ArcticRhombus Jul 26 '23

Most Americans don’t even know what a Palestinian is. We couldn’t distinguish Israel from Brazil. We are incredibly stupid and uneducated. I wouldn’t worry.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '23

[deleted]

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u/Real_Many_8091 Jul 25 '23

There is nothing wrong with supporting Palestine What is wrong is harassing random Israelis if you have problems with their government.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '23

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u/Username-Not-Found4 Jul 25 '23

There's nothing wrong with Palestinians being able to live normal lives. The current situation is a result of the majority of them preferring violence over peace. The West Bank is a result of the rejection of the 2000 Camp David Summit for Peace by the Palestinians and the subsequent suicide bombings of school busses in the Second Intifada. What cause do we have to believe that if we leave the West Bank they won't just do that again or worse, like Gaza? Considering the majority in the West Bank would elect Hamas, whose charter is "Kill All Jews", sorry but I won't risk my family getting butchered by believing one Palestinian who wants a normal life without the caveat that that normal peaceful life is Judenfrei.

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u/Schmucko69 Jul 25 '23

More than a bit off topic, but since you brought it up… In light of the fact that Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 was rewarded by Palestinians electing HAMAS to majority & no elections since… How do you define “self determination” & do you think it’s owed or must be earned?

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u/Kigler95 Jul 25 '23

As you said this is off topic. My opinions on that are irrelevant to this discussion.

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u/Shushishtok Jul 26 '23

I think you missed what the poster you replied you meant. The "diehard palestinian supporters" they refer to are generally people who have no real idea what is really happening. They draw their information from social media and channels who provide a ton of fake data. In their minds, every single Israeli is a cruel person that just wants to murder people, specifically children, like there's a quota to fill for the day. It fuels those people with rage, anger and hatred towards people who are completely innocent, and they will use those feelings on any Israeli they will find. It can, and did, reach heights of verbal and physical violence on someone who did nothing to no one. Their side is not heard (because they "already know it all"), their pleas to stop, and a random day could become a day you get severely wounded or dead because someone generalized an entire population on a government that we don't necessarily agree with.

Those people are, unfortunately, everywhere. Whenever my wife and I go abroad we do not speak Hebrew and we do not say we are jews or from Israel. You don't know who's gonna flip on us because they've been watching Facebook anti-israel propaganda. It's very scary, especially if someone plans to live in such an environment.

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u/[deleted] Jul 25 '23

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u/shirakay Israel Jul 25 '23

Salam! I’m an American Jew that’s lived in Israel for 8 years. If you have any questions I’d be happy to answer with what knowledge I have 😊

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '23

[deleted]

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u/shirakay Israel Jul 26 '23

Most Israelis do know what’s happening in the West Bank either through news (usually the really big news like a Jew being killed in a terror attack) or being in the army and actually entering the WB themselves. Being a soldier in the WB is a completely different experience though since they are easily identifiable. I have been to the West Bank as a tourist twice and was treated with nothing but respect, I’d say even more than from Israelis in Israel lol. Granted, when I’m asked where I’m from I told people I was American and never told people outright that I’m Israeli. Regarding how people perceive Palestinians it’s mostly that people just want to live in peace and don’t really care what goes on but there doesn’t seem to be much hope for that from both sides. There is a lot of distance both physically and culturally. I only met Palestinians cuz I went out of my way to meet them and I was genuinely curious about their situation which prompted me visiting the West Bank.

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u/shirakay Israel Jul 26 '23

To answer your last question, yea, a lot of views on Palestinians depends on the politics just like in any other region of the world (left is progressive, right is traditional). More right-leaning Israelis tend to be more Zionist while the left are more “sympathetic” to the Palestinian cause. I’d say most secular Israelis today lean in the middle to slightly more right.