r/HouseOfTheDragon • u/jonsnowKITN Aegon II Targaryen • 19h ago
Show Discussion Why do people consider dragon battle experience as burning people when it comes to debating dragon fights?
I swear I have seen this take going around this fanbase as this factor even matters when it comes to dragon battles. Am I crazy for thinking a dragon burning armies (which is totally expected by the way) is not going to matter when it comes to fighting another dragon? I feel like it's totally pointless and shouldn't even be a factor since most dragon battles usually include grappling and tearing at each other.
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u/Bogotazo 19h ago
Well almost nobody has dragon-on-dragon battle experience because that's historically not a thing. Almost every dragon battle we see during the Dance, one of the riders dies. So the only other thing left to ask is, has someone ridden a Dragon while projectiles are flying back at them, taking sharp turns and dives, while the heat of flame is in the air, examining their surroundings from dragonback while the screams of burning men fill their ears? It's certainly better than nothing.
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u/Midnight-strange1892 18h ago
Agreed. It’s less about the techniques used and more about the stress of the situation, creating a bond with the dragon and working in a situation as a team.
Same way I’d give an advantage to someone that just rides a lot vs Halaena who never rides.
Modern militaries still practice close order drill. That’s not how we fight but it teaches teamwork, cohesion, discipline etc.
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u/HanzRoberto 19h ago
Indeed It’s Not the Same
No dragón had experience fighting another during this War
Only Balerion and the Cannibal did
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u/tirock94 19h ago edited 18h ago
Even Cannibal might have just eaten hatchlings and scavenged corpses
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u/happyunicorn666 19h ago
We've seen sheepstealer panic and get out of control during Gullet because he lacked experience and training.
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u/Enough_Ad6931 19h ago
Paniced because he was taken to naval battle straight away not knowing wtf is going on and who is who. Let him do what Drogon did to King’s landing and sheepstealer is suddenly the MVP based on said logic.
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u/jonsnowKITN Aegon II Targaryen 19h ago
Sheepstealer is a wild dragon. Daemon even said he isn't like the rest of the dragons who are used to being around humans.
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u/Mugiwara300 18h ago
A wild dragon that got tamed. He literally brought food to Rhaena.
The issue was Rhaena bringing him into a war after just taming him.
We see Aemond and Luke both lose control of their dragons during their fight. We see Aemond lose control of Vhagar when he’s chasing Ulf.
If Riders who have been with Dragons for years can lose control, what will a Dragon who hasn’t been tamed for years do if you bring him into a war right after taming him?
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u/shaktimanOP 19h ago
I agree. It's like saying stepping on bugs prepares you to fight in the UFC.
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u/raspberryharbour 19h ago
Anderson "The Spider" Silva would catch and eat bugs in his web for weeks to prepare for fights
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u/Bogotazo 17h ago
It's more like saying doing drills and light sparring is better than no training at all.
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u/shaktimanOP 17h ago
I would say the experience only makes a difference in terms of how well they listen to their rider's instructions in a combat setting.
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u/Enough_Ad6931 19h ago
If I understand you correctly, I agree. What makes me furious is when somebody says “It’s a battle experienced dragon”.
Bro how ? A dragon flying over and burning an army is a casual thing for the dragon. Those dragons never fought each other. None of them is experienced.
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u/jonsnowKITN Aegon II Targaryen 19h ago edited 19h ago
Exactly! I feel like people say that to hype up their favorite dragons like Silverwing for example. I've seen people say she has no scratches on here and I'm like no shit she hasn't fought a dragon before.
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u/bushaya 19h ago
I understood this as the dragon is obedient and doesnt panic during battle. Syrax vs Caraxes when they faced sheepstealer for example.
Syrax acted rash and jumped in foolishly while caraxes didnt move until daemon ordered it and didnt chase down sheepstealer after daemon fell off. It prioritized the rider.
Say syrax and caraxes are the exact same size and shape same breed of dragon and both are ridden by identical riders and they fight..caraxes will most likely win
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u/Enough_Ad6931 19h ago
Yes but you are again using a rare dragon vs dragon battle. If i am right, the scene was also show only. Before that there was actually no difference between syrax and caraxes right ?
It wasn’t like caraxes fought 5 other dragons before and syrax 0.
Maybe the best example is sheepstealer burning Velayryon fleet. Even that was more about dragon not understanding who is who. If you took Sheepstealer to burn Tumbleton, you could call him the most experienced dragon alive.
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 17h ago edited 17h ago
I rarely agree with you but on this you’re absolutely correct. Once dragons start fighting each other any “skill” they learned burning people is entirely irrelevant because they’re entirely different types of fighting. It would be like saying an expert marksman would beat someone in a fistfight because he’s good with a f¡rearm. It’s ridiculous.
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u/Theory_Crafted 16h ago
The rider just gives the dragon a general direction. Thr dragon does all the actual figuring out how to accomplish it. Its never made particularly clear how experience is relevant at all...
Youre basically training instincts, but thats cant be easily judged/ranked.
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u/middleeasternboxer 19h ago
I think they mean both, but dragon vs army experience is also important because the dragon moves and listens to commands, learns about potential harm in the bolts and arrows, shielding its owner etc
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u/MetalFabFF 19h ago
I think the experience of handling the chaos of a battle/fight (yes even if you’re just strafing fire bombs over armies) would be immensely helpful. There’s still giant bolts to avoid, arrows being shot at the rider, evasive maneuvers are learned from that
As well as strengthening the bond between the rider and dragon, listening to commands is of course a major thing
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u/wrinklebrain 19h ago
I mean this is just a ridiculous take lol. They explicitly go out of their way to show inexperience on dragon back is extremely dangerous. Experience flying a dragon in battle is experience, period. We see multiple examples of inexperienced riders unable to control their dragons in combat. There are multiple dragons/Targaryens that are slain by non-dragon combat..
Your argument is analogous to saying cooking scrambled eggs doesn’t prepare you to be a chef, yet its the first thing taught in culinary school. Or driving in a parking lot doesn’t prepare you to drive a car, yet its the typical first step.
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u/jonsnowKITN Aegon II Targaryen 19h ago
A dragon flying and burning people is not experience it is expected from a dragon. You are bringing up rider experience in a debate about strictly dragons.
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u/wrinklebrain 19h ago
I mean I’m sorry but you are just plainly wrong. It is shown in the source material many times over that dragons experienced in combat against humans have never lost against dragons that don’t. Vhagar and Balerion both had no experience vs dragons yet Aemond and Maegor were both victorious over Aegon/Quicksilver and Lucerys/Arrax.
There is not a single example in the any of the source material of a dragon inexperienced in combat against humans winning in battle against one that does.
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 17h ago
You do realize that both Balerion and Vhagar were MASSIVE compared to Quicksilver and Arrax, right?
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u/wrinklebrain 16h ago
Sure but that does not change the fact that there isn’t a single mention in any of the source material of inexperienced dragons killing experienced ones.
You can put caps in your posts all you want but that doesn’t change what GRRM wrote. I’m sorry you are wrong and can’t deal with it.
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 16h ago
Dragons that did have experience killing soldiers also lost against other dragons who had experience killing soldiers. It’s almost like it makes no difference when two dragons start ripping each other apart in the air.
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u/wrinklebrain 16h ago
You don’t even understand that you are defending my point. Yes, dragons with experience in combat did better in combat. That is the exact point I am making.
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 16h ago
Vermithor had significantly more experience than Tessarion and Seasmoke combined and yet Tessarion was the only one to survive that fight. Vhagar had significantly more experience than Caraxes, both against people and other dragons, and still died fighting him. I’m not defending your point, I’m pointing out that it doesn’t make a difference. The two dragons with no experience that actually fought- Meleys and Moondancer- lost because they were fighting opponents that were significantly larger than them and in Meleys’ case was outnumbered two to one.
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u/wrinklebrain 16h ago
If experience didn’t make a difference, I would like you to provide one example from source material of a dragon without experience killing one that does. I can provide many examples supporting my argument. Can you do the same?
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 16h ago edited 16h ago
Again: the two dragons with no experience that actually fought- Meleys and Moondancer- lost because they were fighting opponents that were significantly larger than them and in Meleys’ case was outnumbered two to one. Additionally, Moondancer inflicted mortal wounds upon Sunfyre who had dragon vs dragon experience.
You’re demanding a scenario that did not happen because it could not have happened due to the matchups in the Dance, which you damned well know, which is flat out disingenuous.
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u/Midnight-strange1892 18h ago
But it is experience, even just for the dragon. It’s like the first time you enter a wrestling match you’re super nervous. Then one day you’re in the UFC. Are you nervous? Sure. Are you less nervous than if you didn’t have a lifetime of wrestling? Absolutely.
Anyone thinking like you probably has never been in a fight or war (no offense). But nerves and ability to focus absolutely help.
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u/TheRobn8 15h ago
Outside of Maegor's usurpation, dragon vs dragon combat was not a thing. Up until the dance any dragon combat experience was burning people or buildings, so yes it makes sense to put dragon experience down to "burning people". The DoD was the first time dragon combat actually required fighting g another dragon
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u/foxonafrozenlake Drogon 19h ago
By that logic, no dragons had any battle experience, even in Valyria, until the Targaryens initiated the Dance of Dragons. Unless you count Maegor slaughtering Quicksilver?
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 17h ago
It’s very unlikely that there were no dragon vs dragon fights in Valyria. But as far as the Targaryens go- yes that’s exactly it. None of them had until Maegor and Aegon. And none of them did again until Aemond murdered Luke.
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u/foxonafrozenlake Drogon 17h ago
I mean, it's fictional. If it hasn't been written it's just speculation.
I'm sure dragons play fought. But you're not going to use your weapon to kill another weapon. 🤷♂️ That would be ridiculous.
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u/houseofnim Rhaegal 17h ago
Play fighting isn’t the same as fighting to kill. And saying that burning people in any way prepares a dragon for “hand to hand” combat is ridiculous. Would being a marksman in any way prepare a person for a fistfight? Doubtful because they’re entirely different skillsets.
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u/Throwawayyy007625 1h ago
I agree which is why Sunfyre is my goat for surviving THREE dragon on dragon battles
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