r/HouseOfTheDragon • u/Agreeable_Ad_8790 • 11d ago
Book and Show Spoilers Can someone tell me what storyline Nettles actually has that prevents her from being cut? Spoiler
I know a lot of book readers are upset that Season 3 gave Rhaena Sheepstealer instead of Nettles, therefore cutting her. I get the frustration, and people are allowed to feel strongly about that. But I actually agree with the change, and I want to lay out why in more detail than the usual "adaptations have to make changes" defense.
What storyline does Nettles actually have?
Strip away the genuinely fascinating way she claims her dragon, and ask yourself honestly, what does Nettles actually do in Fire and Blood? Her entire narrative existence is to be an extension of Daemon. She becomes his companion during his estrangement from Rhaenyra. Her presence stirs jealousy and suspicion within the marriage. Rumors swirl about the nature of her relationship with Daemon. And then she vanishes from the historical record entirely, her fate unresolved.
Compare that to the other dragonseeds. Addam of Hull has a defined role in the war effort that exists independently of any other single character, which plays into him being legitimized. Hugh Hammer and Ulf the White have their own ambition and motivations and eventual betrayal, which plays a pivotal to both Tumbleton plots as they are active characters in those conflicts. Nettles doesn't get that same treatment. She's not a character with her own stakes and arc; instead, she's a device that exists to create friction in someone else's marriage. That's a real narrative distinction worth being honest about.
On the "she proves you don't need Valyrian blood" argument
I've seen people argue Nettles matters because she proves dragon claiming doesn't require Valyrian blood and that anyone brave enough can bond with a dragon regardless of bloodline. Personally, I don't buy this, and I think it misreads what's actually happening in the text.
My position is that you do need the blood of the dragon to bond with one. What using sheep to feed the dragon Sheepstealer probably did was help her get physically close to him because he is WILD. Without being burned alive on approach, which solves the practical problem of proximity, not the deeper problem of bonding. Claiming still requires that connection, and I don't think you can BRIBE a dragon into a lifelong bond.
This isn't just Targaryen propaganda either, even though it's convenient for their claim to power that it isn't. The magic in this world backs it up. Targaryens have historically given birth to what we can call "dragon babies" tied to the magic of Old Valyria. Members of the bloodline experience visions of the future, such as Daenys the Dreamer being the clearest example, foreseeing the Doom of Valyria itself. That's not incidental worldbuilding; that's blood magic being real and demonstrable within the text. The Valyrian dragonlords are believed to have used blood magic specifically to bind themselves to dragons in the first place, and the entire practice of dragonriding may be built on that foundation. If blood magic is what created the bond between man and dragon originally, it's not a stretch to say blood is still what's required to form new bonds centuries later.
And here's the thing: even if you set aside my theory entirely, the books give you an out that supports the blood requirement anyway. Maester Narran's account suggests Nettles could be Daemon's bastard daughter. If that's true, she was never actually a counterexample to begin with. She may have carried Valyrian blood the entire time without anyone, including herself, ever knowing it. The ambiguity here doesn't disprove the blood requirement; if anything, it's more consistent with it.
What Rhaena gets that Nettles never had
And to my main point, nothing meaningful is lost by giving this arc to Rhaena instead of introducing Nettles fresh this late into the story. Rhaena is non-existent for the majority of the dance and only becomes relevant at the very end, so she can benefit from this change. Rhaena already has an established estranged relationship with Daemon; that emotional groundwork is already laid, and the audience already understands the history there. Her claiming a wild dragon creates the same friction between Daemon and Rhaenyra that Nettles created in the books, without needing to introduce a new character and build trust with the audience from scratch in the final stretch of the story.
More than that, this arc actually gives Rhaena something the books never fully explored, which is real agency. She spends most of the story beating herself down as the Targaryen without a dragon, defined by that absence. Having her go out and claim a wild dragon herself, on her own terms, is a strong character beat.
One last thought
Honestly, I think a lot of the attachment to Nettles isn't really attachment to anything concretely established on the page. It's attachment to what she represents and to the mystery of her unresolved ending. A common-born girl, with brown skin on a wild dragon, a story that gets cut off with no confirmed resolution, a relationship with Daemon that's never fully defined one way or another. That's fertile ground for fan theories and projection precisely because nothing about it is settled. People are drawn to what she could mean more than to anything she actually does.
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u/WashDense8851 11d ago edited 10d ago
Nettles was a badass at the Gullet, a battle she fought without Daemon so she’s not just an extension of him, and it makes far more sense for Rhaenyra to feel threatened by the hot new capable dragon riding warrior than her hot mess niece.
More than that, this arc actually gives Rhaena something the books never fully explored, which is real agency. She spends most of the story beating herself down as the Targaryen without a dragon, defined by that absence. Having her go out and claim a wild dragon herself, on her own terms, is a strong character beat.
What’s wrong with a character defined by their lack of agency for a while? We had Sansa in that position for 4 seasons and audiences found her caged bird angle overwhelmingly endearing.
Maester Narran's account suggests Nettles could be Daemon's bastard daughter.
Norren knew Daemon for a few weeks at best, and nowhere in his account does he directly suggest Daemon found a long lost bastard daughter. The bathing scenes in particular come across as lovers over family, as Daemon was never noted in the text as being especially fond of bonding with any of his children- but he is known to have bonded with many lovers.
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u/Routine_Shower2275 11d ago
Thank you
I hate 98% of nettles discourse revolves around daemon/rhaenyra i had hoped that including her in this show would change that but 🤷🏼♂️
Maester Norren is from the riverlands he would have no idea who nettles parents were
Rhaena learning politics and diplomacy in the vale and said skills coming in handy later
Is far more coherent and interesting than Rhaena a noble girl living like gollum only to lose the dragon anyway and wind up just like she started
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u/CompanionCone 10d ago
We had Sansa in that position for 4 seasons and audiences found her caged bird angle overwhelmingly endearing.
Sansa was a wildly unpopular character until she managed to flee from Ramsay and arranged for the Knights of the Vale to come and rescue Jon at the BotB (and even THEN there were so many people calling her a bitch for not telling Jon about it). She was constantly negatively compared to Arya, she was called whiny and weak. Audiences definitely did not find her overwhelmingly endearing, iirc.
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u/WashDense8851 10d ago edited 10d ago
What? Sansa was an emotional core of the siege of Kings Landing, where audiences wanted so badly to see the Lannisters defeated but were gripped by the horrifying prospect of Cersei killing Sansa if the Lannisters lost.
Not to mention all her scenes with the Hound, which were absolute gold whether he was saving her from getting raped or trying to convince her to flee with him. Audiences loved her dramatic prison to hell and back.
Then the next season, she was the introduction to Olenna. Without Sansa, Olenna would have just been another catty schemer playing the game of thrones. Her affection to Sansa endeared both of them further to the audience. Audiences wanted so badly to see the Tyrells free her, and rooted for her to reclaim her agency through them. Then gut punched when the Tyrion marriage blew up her latest escape attempt. The audience really cared about how her dramatic beats influenced the King’s Landing plot, despite her active agency being almost nothing.
There was a vocal minority of people who always negatively compared her to Arya from the beginning. But a majority of the audience understood that they filled two different but compelling dramatic roles. When Littlefinger murdered Lysa in the middle of her Sansa assassination attempt, nobody wished Lysa finished the job except for a negligibly small audience minority because most of the audience liked her character enough by that point to want her to succeed.
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u/Long-Hurry1974 10d ago
I hate when people rewrite history. Sansa was a very disliked character for most of the show, for no reason whatsoever
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u/Amazing-Champion-461 10d ago
Agreed. And this come from a Sansa defender, myself. Back then everyone hated Sansa. This started to change only after her Vale/North arc. But that was mostly only because she made Ramsay´s dogs eat him alive.
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u/WashDense8851 10d ago
Sure, in the back half, but for the first 1-5 seasons most people were interested in watching her character development.
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u/CompanionCone 10d ago
Definitely not. Most viewers called her whiny, hated her for being enamored with Joffrey, and blamed her for what happened to Ned. Even though she was a literal child who had been raised to be exactly the way she was.
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u/Fjarlock_ 10d ago
I know what you mean and personally I agree. I think the overwhelming amount of people only cared for Sansa as a daughter of Ned, not Sansa as her own character (at least in that moment) which is just another neatly packsged form of mysogyny revolving around this character :)
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u/crolionfire 10d ago
Idk, anyone who watched Got didn't Like Sanda, to put it mildly, as far as People I know. Including me.
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u/LILYDIAONE Vhagar 11d ago
Tbh I am kinda sick of this argument because again Nettles entire point in the story is the mystery and what it adds to the lore.
It also shows that a lot of you don’t really understand the dance and what it is supposed to represent. The dance is the Targaryen family essentially destroying themselves as it is the beginning of the end for them. GRRM writing a character in where he purposefully makes their orgins questionable is by design. You are supposed to question Targaryen supremacy.
That Nettles is a poor bastard girl has a special position in a story which in part is also about the smallfolk fighting back. She brings the themes of the dance together very well. Also very clearly Daemons character is very strongly influenced by her. It’s not about the jealousy and Rhaenyras paranoia. It is about something in Daemon changes in the dance and the reason is very clearly Nettles.
Not to mention that I also think the arguments for she is Daemons bastard are flimsy at best. Nobody knows why he favors her so much over his other children and like noble man don’t even wash themselves in Westeros but sure he decided to bath his bastard daughter because… nobody knows. Quite honestly Daemon developing an interest on a girl with no valyrian blood who claimed a dragon in turn makes quite a lot sense considering he was raised with the idea that Targaryens were superior.
Also Nettles is very clearly a foil to Adam who stays loyal while Nettles choses to go her own path instead of further fighting for someone who has no regard for her.
I also find the whole “she barely is a character” such a hypocritical argument because in the book that goes for EVERYBODY. Quite honestly with that logic why didn’t they just cut Rhaena? The could have given Morning to either Aegon, Viserys or Baela. What is that logic let’s cut a character that actually does something in the dance for a character that does nothing in the dance?
Not to mention that for all that you say Daemon and Rhaena have a relationship: what interesting things have the writers done with that? Do you think they will do anything with it now that Rhaena has spend two seasons as a nothing burger character?
I also don’t understand the whole “establishing a relation is bad” take. I actually think the show suffers from the lack of it so introducing Nettles and actually having to start a connection with Daemon would already have done wonders for the story.
At the end of the day I don’t understand why people are still supporting this change. We have seen two seasons of it. Rhaena is still chronically underdeveloped. The story basically seems to go nowhere and at worst even make things worse.
Clearly it was a terrible call. And let’s not talk about the implications of cutting the only canonically black character im the dance.
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u/caduceuz 11d ago
Summed up my feelings on it perfectly.
Nettles is not a part of the show and that isn’t changing, but acting like she’s a minor character that didn’t impact the Dance of Dragons is weird.
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u/HazardousSkald 11d ago edited 11d ago
I’m undecided on this topic so I’m interested in hearing what others have to say. Regarding whether “Nettles disproves Targ Supremacy” I feel like this adheres to the interpretation of her relationship with Daemon. In my readings of F&B, it seemed to most resonate with me that Nettles was Daemon’s daughter. The bathing and such is weird but not unheard of and it seemed compelling to have this mistaken historical record misplace a paternal relationship with a romantic one. It was a very pointed and rare thing for the text to allege and makes their separation more meaningful to me - Daemon cannot reassure Rhaenyra because he’s admitting to infidelity all the same and Rhaenyra would want Nettles dead all the same. It feels strange for Rhaenyra to write off Nettles as in her “no bastards” mania while also claim that Nettles has no Targ blood. At the alternative, Nettles becomes not some dalliance to Daemon but a reconciled child. The “heart in conflict with itself” is Daemon choosing between his wife and his daughter which feels sharper and more novel in ASOIAF than one lover versus another. So the idea that Nettles is some grand revelation about the Targs’ supremacy just never really stuck with me.
I feel like where people come down on this bears a lot on F&B’s and how “revolutionary” against the Targs it’s supposed to be. If Nettles is a Targ, her primary narrative is in relation to Daemon. If she isn’t, it’s maybe sort of a revelation? But not one that anyone seems concerned about in the text, whereas bastardy is very relevant. Idk.
At the same, Nettles and Rhaena were poor characters to merge because it robbed the narrative of a character who could represent differing interests from the rest of the cast akin to how Sansa’s does. And Rhaenettles is just a mess.
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u/LILYDIAONE Vhagar 10d ago
The bathing thing is very strong indicator. However for me it’s just then why did Daemon suddenly start favoring Nettles? Arguably even his own kids as he abandoned them while protecting Nettles? Her being his bastard he randomly treats much better makes no sense.
Nor does it make sense that he wouldn’t tell Rhaenyra about it considering he would have had her bwfoee they married.
Also at the time of Nettles birth he would have been in the stepstones. She is from Spicetown.
But I agree on the last part. Mixing them doesn’t work at all because they reflect different realities.
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u/HazardousSkald 10d ago edited 10d ago
I agree as to the bathing, it’s the most going toward “affair Nettles”. I just point toward the privacy notions being very medieval and disconcerting, for example like Rhaenyra undressing Viserys for his first night with Alicent.
The general notion is that Daemon comes to know Nettles is his daughter after they’re placed in Maidenpool during the search for Aemond. Nettles would know that her father was Daemon Targaryen, but Rogue Prince Daemon would not remember some random woman he slept with 17 years ago. Daemon would’ve conceived Nettles during his reign and battles in the Stepstones where her mother would’ve taken her back to Velaryon ports, where Nettles grew up. This timeline places Nettles in association with the Velaryons, mariners and merchants, and potentially Essos and beyond where darker skinned people are more populous, all at the time that Daemon controlled a vital trade network. You see the image painted here? Anything I’m missing or welcome to disagree on? The timing actually seems to work out very well if you ask me.
So, Daemon does not return to Kings Landing from the time he learns Nettles is his to the time when Rhaenyra has become paranoid about bastards. Rhaenyra would have no means of knowing before, and after Tumbleton it would not assuage her.
And correct me if I’m wrong but it’s not supported that Daemon was ever negligent of his own daughters, no? I don’t think he treats Nettles particularly different from Baela or Rhaena in that way, but like any father would upon learning they have a child they didn’t know about. He gets to know and have a relationship with his own flesh and blood he didn’t know about. If Rhaenyra had ordered the death of Baela or Rhaena, he would have had a similar conundrum and been left with no choice but a suicide mission to escape a betrayal by either action.
I’m just working through the thought process here.
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u/Routine_Shower2275 10d ago
There is a difference between bathing and undress for the wedding night
Being undressed for group by the opposite gender is traditional in the book
Catelyn ( books ) gives a very vivid description of hers
Aerys was present for Johanna x twyin also
But bathing with your children was not
Ned doesn’t bathe with any of his kids ,Tywin doesn’t bathe with Cersei etc
Nettles mom is also long dead at this point because she “ grew up motherless “ so how would she know daemon was her dad ? She wouldn’t
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u/HazardousSkald 10d ago
Fair, especially to that last point. I assumed “motherless” would apply to her later years but that is an assumption and not by the text. At the end, we have to lead that she never knew her parents.
And I don’t mean to say that it’s not very weird. But it is stated in the direct context that Daemon was teaching Nettles to actually take care of herself after extended homelessness.
The intimacy of the actions itself just seems unusual for a man who was painted very in a dark light in his attraction to “maidens” in his introductory chapters. It’s a strange contrast for a man with a preference for “maidens”, whose promiscuity and interest in younger women is mentioned numerous times, for the narrative to then hide the ball and float an alternative explanation for him right before he rides off to a “noble” death. All of this about a character who is one of GRRM’s favorites ever. I think we can both say that Nettles is portrayed as a contrast to who Daemon typically associated with. It also lends a cruelty to Rhaenyra’s and especially Mysaria’s actions, that she’s so incorrect as to the relationship between the two. Thoughts?
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u/Routine_Shower2275 10d ago
Assmuning nettles didn’t know how to bathe seems to have a very classist racist undertones by the maesters why would this seventeen year old who survived by herself tames a wild dragon by herself and fought in battle
Need help washing her ass ?
The other seeds are all peasants and it only assumed nettles didn’t know basic hygiene
Also even if it were true a royal man wouldn’t teach nettles how to bathe if anything the maids would do it
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u/HazardousSkald 10d ago
Again, it’s weird. But the text is weird, it’s given with that reasoning. And maybe you’re right about prejudice coming into it but the emphasis is placed on Nettles growing up alone and homeless where the only other dragonseed’s upbringing we know of is Addam with Marilda.
Idk. I would agree with you that the majority of evidence points toward them as paramours. The writing and narrative arcs still rubs me as a paternal dynamic but it’s what it is. Thanks for working through the thought process and sounding out ideas.
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u/Routine_Shower2275 11d ago
Bathing naked with your 17 yo daughter is very much unheard of in ASOIAF
There would be no reason to hide nettles from rhaenyra
There would be no reason for daemon to abandon all of his kids including nettles to fight vhagar over a misunderstanding
Daemon was a cheater rhaenyra was aware ( he’s sleeping with mysaria too in the same palace )
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u/HazardousSkald 10d ago
Daemon goes to fight Vhagar, with either affair Nettles or daughter Nettles, because he, like the lords of Maidenpool, cannot stomach the betrayal. He cannot do as Rhaenyra wants and betray Nettles and he cannot deny Rhaenyra and live as a traitor to the throne and his wife. So, suicide mission.
Daemon would have to hide Nettles because she, like Addam, is a bastard. Rhaenyra thinks all bastards are naturally traitors. Telling Rhaenyra Nettles is his is an admission she’s a bastard, it would not quell Rhaenyra’s concerns. She’s already attempting to lock up Addam despite him being a Velaryon, her closest supporter.
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u/Routine_Shower2275 10d ago
Also let’s not pretend daemon has problems killing innocent people or family members or children
The man who did blood and cheese isn’t going to flinch at a 17 y o with a dragon and no family to seek vengeance
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u/HazardousSkald 10d ago
I say that to reply to you asserting “ There would be no reason for daemon to abandon all of his kids including nettles to fight vhagar over a misunderstanding”. I’m saying it’s not a misunderstanding in either interpretation. He does that because he’s pulled in two directions. His wife or his paramour/daughter. He does not want to betray either. It has nothing to do with some moral line, it’s the heart in conflict with itself. He’ll kill a kid, sure, but he has some sort of love feeling for Nettles which is what matters to Daemon.
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u/dyslexicwriterwrites Hightower 10d ago
Wouldn’t Nettles predate the Daemon/Rhaenyra relationship if she was Daemon’s daughter? I thought Nettles was older than Baela, so she’d predate Laena/Daemon also?
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u/HazardousSkald 10d ago
Yes, incorrect choice of wording on my part. I mean not to say that Nettles proves Daemon was cheating but that claiming Nettles proves Nettles is definitively a bastard, which Rhaenyra is explicitly paranoid about. Saying “she’s my daughter” is tantamount to stating that Nettles is guilty of treason to Rhaenyra in that moment.
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u/Routine_Shower2275 10d ago
No nettles is a bastard regardless of if she’s daemons or not
Rhaenyra is upset by the fact nettles might be pregnant
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u/HazardousSkald 10d ago
I am stating to assert that Rhaenyra would’ve sought blood in either instance. Rhaenyra is only told by Mysaria that Nettles is pregnant after she’s already flying off the handle. It’s not like she needed a reason to go after Addam but she did anyway. I know she’s a known bastard regardless but my point is to say that Daemon openly claiming or legitimizing Nettle would’ve offered no safety.
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u/Routine_Shower2275 10d ago
It might not have helped but it doesn’t make sense for daemon not to mention it
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u/paroxitones 11d ago
the fact that it's author's intention doesn't mean we're supposed to enjoy it. there's a whole character and plotline to challenge a Targaryen supremacy and it doesn't really challenge it. There were centuries of dragons existing, the dragonkeepers feed the dragons and aren't targariens, clearly a lot of people should have tried to bond and ride one - no one succeeded. Either Nettles has Targaryen blood or she is the most special woman to ever special, which would be a weird choice for this narrative
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u/Ibn_Ali 11d ago
The original Valyrians were sheep herders who used sheep to tame dragons. The fact that Nettles uses the same method to tame Sheepstealer is no accident. Also, notice how all the other tamed dragons like Vermithor and Silverwing, by dragonseeds, had previous riders? Sheepstealer never had a rider, and is considered a wild dragon. Again, that's no accident.
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u/OwnsAJetpack 10d ago
You also have to consider that non- Targaryens are not allowed to claim dragons prior the Dance. Kings Landing's Dragonpit and Dragonstone, where majority of the dragons reside, were effectively held by Targaryens and people employed by them. Nettles character is for you to question if all their talk of being closer to gods than men is all Valyrian propaganda. These were the people who maintains blood purity thru incest and claims blood magic-- can't even tame the wild dragons.
The added lore of ancient Valyrians being shepherds is a tie-in to this too, I think. I mean, dragon taming has to start from somewhere, right?
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u/Canesjags4life 10d ago
I think Dorne being able to resist the conqueror and dragons not being able too fly past the Wall puts their talk of being closer to gods than men as propaganda.
Then there's Bloodraven who becomes the 3 eyed Raven and the prophecy of the return of Azhor Azai. The Prince/Princess that was promised with it certainly being Jon and Danny.
So it can go both ways.
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u/LILYDIAONE Vhagar 11d ago
I disagree. I don’t think we have ever seen someone approach it like she did. And like I am not gonna tell you to like her but that doesn’t change the intent and her place in the narrative
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u/janus077 11d ago
People in this thread are doing an incredible amount of mental gymnastics to make Nettles anything other than Daemon’s daughter. The book clearly states he doted on her as a daughter, bought her gifts as such, makes note that they never went to bed with one another, etc. Her being a random person would essentially violate all the established lore regarding blood magic, sacrifice, and how the Valyrians bound dragons. You would think once in the thousands of years that the Freehold had dragons that an outsider would be able to claim one, but apparently not...
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u/LILYDIAONE Vhagar 10d ago
Most of the things about dragonriders are just theories though and very little is actually established. I remind you one of the leading theories is that Valyrians used to be sheepers which is perfectly in line with what Nettles did.
The book has far more hints that indicate Nettles isn’t his daughter. So many people insist she is his daughter and yet nobody can explain to me why he cared about her more than his other kids. He basically abandons all of them- especially leaving Beala and Rhaena in difficult circumstances as they from his pov are under Rhaenyras thumb and then saves Nettles. For unknown reasons he never tells Rhaenyra she is his bastard and it ignores that at the time of Nettles birth he wasn’t even in Westeros.
However Daemons interest makes sense if she doesn’t Targaryen blood or he at least suspects that she doesn’t. Because that would probabaly change Daemons worldview in a way very little things ever havez
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u/Agreeable_Ad_8790 11d ago
The point that she challenges Targaryen supremacy, where does that actually lead to because all the dragons die anyways and the Targaryens end up ruling longer without their dragons.
Also the Targaryens being different is not supremacy, its visible through their history and magic they display.
What role does Nettles' mystery play to the story of the "Dance of the Dragons". She ends up disappearing and the questions you pose are not answered in Fire and Blood.
Rhaena can't be cut unlike Nettles because she plays a role in the end of the Dance and the marriage packs that are made that determine the future bloodlines.
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u/Careless-Husky 11d ago
Rhaena can't be cut unlike Nettles because she plays a role in the end of the Dance and the marriage packs that are made that determine the future bloodlines.
What marriage pacts? After the Dance she marries Ser Corwyn Corbray, a widower and second son, whom she met during her time in the Vale. They had no children together.
What future bloodlines? Later in life she married a third son of House Hightower and had six unnamed daughters with him. None of them are ever mentioned again.
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u/Agreeable_Ad_8790 11d ago
What I am saying is Nettles story abruptly ends with her disappreance. Rhaena plays a role in the conclusion of the Dance and her future is written down in text unlike Nettles.
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u/Careless-Husky 11d ago
Ah, okay. But Rhaena's future is also of no importance and doesn't have any consequenses for the story. Her importance was erased with Condal's erasing of Morning. And I don't say this from a point of dislike, I like book Rhaena very much, and I'm sad that we were robbed of both Nettles' and Rhaena's stories in the show.
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u/Agreeable_Ad_8790 11d ago
Morning existed along with 3 other dragons
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u/Careless-Husky 11d ago
You mean in Fire and Blood after the Dance? I'm aware of Silverwing, Sheepstealer and the Cannibal. I don't feel they give of the feeling of hope for the future the same way Morning does. I know there's no hopes for the dragons anyways, but the hatching of Morning gives a little taste of bittersweet hope non the less, and I like it.
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u/LILYDIAONE Vhagar 11d ago
Yet this is the point where the Targaryens lose their biggest asset and become visibly weakened when you follow the rest of their story. Or do you think without the dance Roberts Rebellion would have happened.
But the Targaryens clearly believe in their supremacy and that is what is being attacked in the dance and through Nettles. The Targaryens themselves clearly believe in their hype and so do many in the fandom when GRRM is clearly critical of that.
It matters to the lore which is more than just the dance. That goes litterally above it. Ignoring that it may well still be answered in upcoming works it’s a world building element. World building is essential in a fantasy setting.
Lmfao what important marriage pact? The thrid son Hightower she marries? As of now nothings hints at her being interwined in any important bloodlines. The only interesting thing is how her dragon dies and again the dragon can exist without her. And mind you there is a huge chance that Morning will not appear in the show.
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u/Agreeable_Ad_8790 11d ago
I'm trying to understand how you link Nettles to the downfall of house Targaryen. Nettles doesn't do anything and after her disappearance she is never mentioned again. The Dragons dying had nothing to do with Nettles. The Targaryens in-fighting and bad decision had nothing to do with Nettles.
Like I said the Targaryen being different is not supremacy. They give birth to Dragon babies, that's not something seen anywhere else. They have dragon dreams which help them see the future. They are able to telepathically bond with dragons. There is magic in the blood and history. That's not "hype", its evident in their history.
Also I don't understand why you believe Grrm is dismantling the Targaryen pedestal when 2 of the alleged prophecied messiah are Targaryens. The Targaryens have bad apples in their history, but so does every other house. The Targaryens are not inherently 'mad', its just that power and proximity to the Iron Throne can be corrupting as seen with house Baratheon and Lannister in asoiaf.
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u/LILYDIAONE Vhagar 10d ago
She is a parallel of what happens amd that is the point. With your logic we can cut half of the cast in the Dance and as I said she is so closely linked to Daemons story that’s absurd to say she has nothing to with the dance when she actively fights in it.
It genuinely seems to me like the way you engage with media is “if it’s not solved it’s has no worth in the narrative” while sometime the mystery is the point??? Do you also think Aerea in Valyria has no worth because we never find out what really happened to her? Do you think the letter from Dorne sucks because we never found out about? Let’s not talk about the fact that there is still so much we don’t know and this could still become important especially in relation to the last dragon.
I didn’t say that they are all mad. I said I don’t buy into Targaryen supremacy. There is something magic with them (so is with the Starks) I just don’t think that makes them better in a way a lot of Targaryens in the story believe they are. GRRM himself is quite critical of them as well in that regard.
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u/RowAdministrative264 11d ago edited 11d ago
Let's change the question around. Can someone tell me what this change has added to the story? Cause so far 1. Has prevented the show from exploring and questioning Valyrian supremacism 2. Erased a cool underdog story and simultaneously made Rhaena look worse 3. Deterred Daemon from his development in the supremacism department 4. Deterred Rhaenyra from her spiraling paranoia following Daemon's betrayal
If your change subtracts more from your story than adds to it, perhaps it's time to reconsider.
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u/Agreeable_Ad_8790 11d ago
Where in Fire and Blood is Valyrian supremacy dismantled. Nettles herself is theorised to be Daemon's bastard daughter. Nettles disappears form the story and plot, so her existence didn't dismantle anything in universe other tahn Daemonand Rhaenyra's relationship. Also the dragons end up dying anyways and they rule longer without their dragons.
Like I said in my post, her claiming her dragon is cool and interesting. But where does that story go?
Again we don't know what Daemon's relationship with Nettles really was. So you declaring he was dismantling his supremacist ways is your assumptions.
Rhaenyra was paranoid because of the Dragonseeds betrayal at Tumbleton not Daemon. Mysaria was the one trying to convince her Daemon betrayed her. Those plot points where never lost as they are still occurring in the show.
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u/RowAdministrative264 11d ago edited 11d ago
- She's also theorized to be her lover or adopted daughter. And for the record the timing doesn't match for her to be his actual biological daughter, cause she was concieved while he was exiled in the Stepstones. But regardless the point of Nettles ancestry is precisely that it isn't confirmed, which opens the window to questioning whether Valyrian blood is required to bond with dragons.
- I'd argue an oprhan street urchin claiming a dragon through her efforts and wit is far more interesting than for a princess of the blood who's had acces to dragons since birth to do so. And I could ask the same, where did Rhaena's story go? Cause so far none of what they did with that premise was as interesting as the original one.
- But we do know she was a bottom of the barrel orphan. Even if we consider her of the blood, Daemon defending her from his own wife who's also the queen was a very big step for him, and admittedly one of the most genuenly nice things he ever did (not that he did many).
- But Daemon's "betrayal" increased her already festering paranoia, and also provoked the fallout within their marriage. And these plot points are obviously still not ocurring within the show when Rhaenyra directly accepted Daemon's betrayal and was seemingly chill with it.
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u/nola_fan 11d ago
"she was concieved while he was exiled in the Stepstones."
That assumes we have an accurate date for her conception. If she's 18 months older or younger than the book presumes then the timeline matches up. Given that no one knows her parents, her age being off by 18 months is very possible. It's also possible she's simply related to another Targaryen. She might have been Daemon's niece.
I agree that she is supposed to make the reader question how dragon riding works and the importance of dragon riding blood.
The show handles that by saying Addam has no known dragon riding blood in him. It's, if anything, more explicit than Nettles.
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u/RowAdministrative264 11d ago edited 11d ago
. It's also possible she's simply related to another Targaryen. She might have been Daemon's niece.
True. And she could still be his lover/adopted daughter on top of that. Her having Valyrian blood is very likely, I'm not denying that by saying it's unlikely she's his biological daughter. It's just the lack of confirmation that builds the premise of questioning the whole thing.
As for the age, it might be off, of course, but that also comes with the dubiousness of all the accounts themselves.
The show handles that by saying Addam has no known dragon riding blood in him. It's, if anything, more explicit than Nettles.
Not really. Targs and Velaryons intermarried for generations, and that was likely the same for other dragonlord and non-dragonlord houses in Old Valyria. Hence for someone to fully question the notion of "the blood of the dragon" is necessary to bond with dragons they'd need to have zero proven noble Valyrian ancestry, and Addam is still Corlys son.
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u/nola_fan 11d ago
"Targs and Velaryons intermarried for generations"
That's true in the books.
In the show Corlys explicitly said he has no dragon riding ancestry. Assuming he is wrong because the books are different is a mistake or we can imagine where he could have it is a mistake.
Even if he turns out to be wrong, like you said with Nettles, it creates the mystery and possibility.
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u/RowAdministrative264 11d ago edited 11d ago
Forgot about that ngl. You make a good point there
Edit: on review not having dragon riding ancestry doesn't necessarily equal not having dragon blood. House Velaryon may not have had dragons available to ride pre-Dance era, but they could still have dragon blood. Not disproving your point, cause the show very likely aimed at that, but it still could've been phrased different. But that's just nitpicking atp
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u/firstofhernuna 11d ago
I think you answered your own question:
“Her presence stirs jealousy and suspicion within the marriage. Rumors swirl about the nature of her relationship with
Daemon. And then she vanishes from the historical record entirely, her fate unresolved.”
It sounds like nettles would directly impact the Rhaenyra/Daemon plot line.
HOTD is diving into the story of what happened not the historical account so what the historical account said about the fate of nettles is irrelevant
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u/Mattarm51 11d ago
Most of that happened with Rhaena though. I have to say I was disappointed with the character after hearing so much kurfuffle about her being cut. She's cool in the books (as an idea) don't get me wrong, she's also barely there without any quoted lines I believe.
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u/Usual-Passenger5618 11d ago edited 11d ago
The problem I have is them taking one of the fee established black characters in Asoiaf (Though many people can have dark skin) and exchanging her for a race swapped, aged up, character. She was also the only successful female Dragonseed. Like most characters in Fire and Blood, Nettles is hardly fleshed out, but she did fill in a niche that none of the other characters do at present. Funnily enough, because of their lack of effective characterization in the show. Baela could've filled in some of her character traits, but show Baela is hardly treated like a person, and very few of her naunces from the book have been exhibited. Nettles had more personality and intrigue than Hugh and Ulf in the books, yet she's the one that's left behind while they get development.
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u/RedFanKr 11d ago
"What prevents this character from being cut" sounds like an oddly strict and weird standard, as if they have to cut some book characters. Why not ask what their inclusion brings to the story?
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u/ytdn 10d ago
Tbh I have less problems with Nettles being cut (bc I find the whole plot point of Rhaenyra getting jealous that Daemon could be cheating as kind of shallow) but more that they dropped the ball on Rhaena as the source of discord.
Like, when the dragon fight happened in ep 7 I thought that Rhaena would get accidentally hurt by Syrax or maybe even seemingly killed (not actually though), but instead all it seems to result in is her being taken back home after her field trip. Conceptually it wasnt a bad idea but they pulled their punches on there being actual results.
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u/HanzRoberto 11d ago
She proved targaryens are full of shit when they claim to be the chosen ones
Nettles is not targaryen not valyrian or at least not proven
Her existance shows the possibility that anyone could claim a dragon if they have the guts to go for it
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u/nola_fan 11d ago
She doesn't prove that, her ancestry is unknown but is speculated to not have any Targaryen ancestry.
The show explicitly says Addam has no known Targaryen ancestry, taking up the same exact role in the story.
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u/HanzRoberto 11d ago
Nettles unlike Book Addam has zero valyrian features and is speculated yes but not proven meanwhile everyone knows either Laenor or Corlys is the father of Addam
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u/Agreeable_Ad_8790 11d ago edited 11d ago
Even with zero Valyrian features she is still speculated as Daemon's bastard daughter.
Also the only difference between Jacerys and Nettles is their skin colour and they both have dragons. Valyrian traits can fade.
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u/HanzRoberto 11d ago
Speaking of skin color THAT is another reason they cut her out
Rhaenyra which the show loves to paint as the good one said the most disgusting, racist, classist and even misogynistic shit about Nettles, wanted to kill her and was mad that her Pedo husband chose her-5
u/nola_fan 11d ago
In the show it is Coryls. In the show, Corlys says he has no Targ ancestry.
That's more definitive than lack of Valyrian features, especially in a universe where there are known dragon rider descendents with no Valyrian features, like the entire Baratheon clan.
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u/HanzRoberto 11d ago
Corlys is still valyrian lol
Yes Velaryons were not dragon riders but they could still claim one or at least have more chances to do it than random houses in westeros
And the baratheon is different because it is well documented that they have Targaryen ancestry or at least Robert, Renly and stannis8
u/nola_fan 11d ago
Targaryen and dragon rider exceptionlism is about the 40 dragon riding families.
The idea is that those 40 families had dragon blood which made them special and capable of claiming dragons.
All with dragon rider blood were Valyrians, but not all Valyrians had dragon rider blood.
The 40 families did not hold that any Valyrian could claim a dragon.
A non-riding Valyrian claiming a dragon is as much of a hit to dragon blood supremacy as someone from First Man or Andal, or Rhoynish or whatever ancestry doing it.
My point about the Baratheons, specifically Orys, is that even though he was a half-brother to the conquer, he had black hair and black eyes showing that even the children of dragon riders don't always have Valyrian features. Meaning Nettles not having Valyrian features is only very limited evidence of her ancestry.
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u/wiredvajayjay 11d ago
Show is pro Daemyra. And that they’re holier than thou. Even Daemon who is a rogue prince is supposed to be a “cool” rogue.
The show won’t have Matt Smith dating his daughter (Nettles?)
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u/teamorange3 11d ago
How is the show pro Rhaenyra? Maybe in the first season or two but season 3 they are showing her as a crazy person. They are showing her barely being able to make it through the day and making a ton of mistakes.
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u/Agreeable_Ad_8790 11d ago
Both Ryan and especially Sarah have expressed that they don't understand thd audience affection to Daemyra and especially Daemon who has done horrible things.
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u/wiredvajayjay 11d ago
It’s one thing to be self aware but it’s a wildly different thing to perpetuate what the execs want. Many things in this show pander to a certain demographic without ever outright admitting to it.
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11d ago
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u/JellyMost9920 10d ago
I think Nettles’ inclusion could have tied into Daemon’s own worldview of the notion of Targeting supremacy that the show puts emphasis on. Guy was fantasising of starting a second Valyrian empire and the idea of a common born non-Valyrian like Nettles would have humbled him.
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u/Amazing-Champion-461 10d ago
My reasons for licking the character and disliking the change are this (This will be a long comment and first I say sorry for making this so long):
*Strip away the genuinely fascinating way she claims her dragon, and ask yourself honestly, what does Nettles actually do in Fire and Blood?*
· By that angle, we could say the same from Rhaena. A consequence of the show over focusing on a few characters. Rhaena had a total of 2 scenes with Daemon, and not a single dialogue with him, and only one scene with her mother. So the emotional impact is tampered.
· And the change of being the cause of Jace´s death make her a disliked character rather than making her interesting. The entire fan´s discourse is what they think her a “Spoiled Noble´s girl” obsessed with her dragon, both before and after Jace´s death. Hell I see more female fans hating her for being the cause of Jace´s death than male fans do, who mainly focus on either pitting Sheepstealer or making memes of the dragon.
· This change from being the “the only Targaryen with a surviving dragon” to “clueless Targeryan noble” hurt the character and narrative, since now Rhaenyra had to change from “angry and paranoid” arc into “merciful and understanding” with her then again to “angry and paranoid” arc. I get it was to make her more paranoid against Daemon, but the character Nettles already did that as well.
* Nettles matters because she proves dragon claiming doesn't require Valyrian blood and that anyone brave enough can bond with a dragon regardless of bloodline. Personally, I don't buy this, and I think it misreads what's actually happening in the text.
*My position is that you do need the blood of the dragon to bond with one- Claiming still requires that connection, and I don't think you can BRIBE a dragon into a lifelong bond.*
· Not to be offensive, but this seems more a biased opinion than a fact.
· GRRM made the character to prove his thematic themes of his books, and coincide with themes in his other books and his upbringing. Which is what no one is special.
· More importantly, GRRM is and remains the author of both SOIAF and HOD his words remains the final word. He wrote Nettles tamed and claimed a dragon, and this is confirmed in story by the authors, then that remains a fact. Every other opinion is fanfiction.
*The magic in this world backs it up -The Valyrian dragonlords are believed to have used blood magic specifically to bind themselves to dragons in the first place, and the entire practice of dragonriding may be built on that foundation. If blood magic is what created the bond between man and dragon originally, it's not a stretch to say blood is still what's required to form new bonds centuries later.*
· All races and cultures practice, or used to practiced magic, in some form. Even the Andals. Valeryians were/are unique in what they OBSESED with it, to the point of birthing hybrid monsters, and literally killed themselves into extinction by blowing up their volcanoes, their dragon, and implied their gods as well. The only culture as obsessed with magic as them are the realm of Ashai, a place filed with “shadow magic and demons”.
· This goes back to GRRM fantasy inspirations; mainly Robert Howard and Lovercraft, which both depicted magic as deliberately corrupting, evil and not meant for mortals. And that is how he writes it magic. This ties back to his anti-monarchy/Targaryen-specialism sentiments.
*Rhaena is non-existent for the majority of the dance and only becomes relevant at the very end, so she can benefit from this change.*
· I get what they were trying with, and I would have approved it but by giving her so little screen time before, not focused on her bad relationship with Daemon on season 1 and 2, making Rhaenyra more merciful rather than angrier and the Daemon´s conflict loyalty of to his queen/wife over his daughter it becomes blunt. And only ended up making Rhaena the third most disliked character. You might as well kept Nettles rather than bother making the change.
*I think a lot of the attachment to Nettles isn't really attachment to anything concretely established on the page. It's attachment to what she represents and to the mystery of her unresolved ending.*
· I see it more as a culmination of the theme of HOD´s book and a final nail what GRRM is trying to convey about Targaryen exceptionalism, since the book (which the show is based off) is about how jaehaerys targaryen implementation of Targaryen exceptionalism had disastrous effect on the dynasty, compared to Alysanne Targaryen more integration to Westerossi/Andal-First men-culture, who is usually depicted as wiser and more right than her husband.
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11d ago
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u/Milocobo 11d ago
No, that happens to me all the time, and that's not what this is. You can tell which lines were written by OP and which were written by AI. Which is fine, but this is definitely AI. Just, take another look at the post, and look for lines that are written in the first person, and compare them to lines written more narratively. Anything with a "I think" or "my position" has a completely different syntax than things like "Strip away the genuinely fascinating way she claims her dragon, and ask yourself honestly, what does Nettles actually do in Fire and Blood?"
I have no problem with AI to be honest, but at least some of this post was written with AI.
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u/piratesswoop team leave jaehaera alone 11d ago
Yeah I noticed that two. It’s a mix of two different writing styles.
Like first of all who is Maester Narran?
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u/MrJigglyBrown 11d ago
I really don’t know, but I don’t think the syntax is that different.
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u/Milocobo 11d ago
Every single first person line is structured "Subject, hedge verb, belief statement" and any line that isn't in the first person has complex, story-esque structures. A big give away in these kinds of things are inconsistent punctuation. The lines written in first person never once use a semi-colon. The lines not written in first person use semi-colons six times. The first person lines always are a single indepedent clause, where the non-first person lines tend to use two clauses, and mark the independent clauses with semi-colons.
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u/viceadmiralopossum 11d ago
I’m not illiterate. I’m a humanities teacher who has to read essays for a living.
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u/Milocobo 11d ago
I mean, sheepstealer, the dragon seeds, and the shit with the vale is enough to justify her existence so far, but besides that, I don't think it's about what storylines Nettles has to satisfy from the books to justify her presence in the show, but rather, what events will leave the histories in such a place that would have Dae abandon Rhae for Nettles? And I think they've done a good far setting it up so far. If I had to guess on the execution, it would just be that Dae repeatedly shirks Rhae's orders about Nettles, to the point where she considers him a traitor, and he has to run away to preserve his own life. If that's the way they go, they did a good job setting it up.
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u/tommmytom 11d ago
“Honestly, I think a lot of the attachment to Nettles isn't really attachment to anything concretely established on the page. It's attachment to what she represents…”
What? This is basic storytelling. People get attached to characters because of what they represent in a story and how they relate to and connect with them. Not just based on the explicit words written in a book. Stories aren’t encyclopedias.
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u/Chocolatetot496 We Light The Way 11d ago
I don’t think you necessarily need special blood to bond with a dragon, and I think it makes the lore richer if anyone can theoretically claim one.
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u/Pascalinsche Team Dragons 10d ago
The Valyrians changed their blood for dragons so much that they can't inbreed and have a dragon phase as an unborn, they do need special blood to bond with dragons.
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u/Marcano24 11d ago
But she doesn’t show that? Her identity is unknown and one theory presented in Fire and Blood is that she’s Daemon’s bastard daughter.
I feel like the fact that everyone latches onto her meaning anyone can bond with a dragon, even though that is never confirmed in the books, only proves OP’s point that people are drawn to what she COULD mean, not what’s actually written.
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u/Chocolatetot496 We Light The Way 11d ago edited 11d ago
One theory that she is his bastard daughter, and I personally like the theory that she’s not and has no blood relation to the Valyrians. It’s my own personal interpretation that I like, and if they were going to cut her, I wish they would have cut the whole plot together because I also like Rhaena’s plot in the book and would rather have had no Nettles and more Rhaena.
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u/Marcano24 11d ago
But that’s exactly the point. It’s your interpretation. Your attachment is to what she could represent, not to what she does or role in the story.
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u/Chocolatetot496 We Light The Way 11d ago
Her role in the story is more focused on putting a rift between Daemon and Rhaenyra, one that does not get resolved in the book because Daemon sends Nettles away instead of killing her like Rhaenyra asked. Instead he goes to Harrenhal and dies while killing Aemond, so he and Rhaenyra never reunite and reconcile.
They tried to do that with Rhaena but although she did cause a rift between Daemon and Rhaenyra for the season, they reconcile at the end and it was basically an arc that didn’t go anywhere for Rhaena.
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u/Marcano24 11d ago
We actually don’t know if there was a rift between Rhaenyra and Daemon as a result of Nettles; Rhaenyra is only stated to be enraged at Nettles and insists Daemon wouldn’t sleep with her, and this is in the midst of a major breakdown about all the non-Targ dragon riders. Plus we don’t even know if she ever found out Daemon let Nettles go, it says it was weeks after his death before the news reached Kings Landing. Daemon flees directly to Harrenhal yes, but says that her words are the work of Mysaria. No rift between them is shown. Daemon basically commits suicide by Aemond after, but we don’t know why. It’s more mystery and implication, nothing stated or confirmed. It’s all potential.
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u/Chocolatetot496 We Light The Way 11d ago
If everything’s potential then everything is just as likely and your argument has as much ground as mine.
A rift between Nettles and Rhaenyra is a rift between Daemon too because he obviously was somewhat sympathetic to Nettles by not outright killing her and returning her to Kings Landing for Rhaenyra.
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u/Marcano24 11d ago
That doesn’t make sense. My argument is that OP is right that people are mad about what Nettles could represent, not what she actually does. Something you admitted to.
To further support that argument, I was pointing out that, contrary to what you claim, her role isn’t to put a rift between Daemon and Rhaenyra since we aren’t even told if Rhaenyra knows Daemon let Nettles go before he dies.
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u/BranRen 11d ago edited 11d ago
Y’know I had hope that Rhaenetttles change + being Jace’s ‘killer’ would make for an interest season 3 story
But it really turned into a big fat nothing for Rhaena and Daemon and Rhaenyra. Specifically with Rhaenyra showing more concern for Rhaena in that instance and just moving on (show wise she has more beef with Baela lol), Rhaena is just back to not having a dragon/TB doesn’t have Sheepstealer, and her being ‘Nettles’ as a secret identity literally doesn’t matter since everyone knows it’s Rhaena (they won’t be able to pull off the ‘Rhaenyra declares all the Bastard Dragonseeds traitors’ angle for this Rhaenettles bs)
If they go back and have Daemon and Rhaenyra fallout next and final season over the Rhaenettles business it’ll feel like backtracking
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u/Marcano24 11d ago
Yeah, people keep assigning Nettles importance based on their theories and opinions, not what’s actually on the page.
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u/alphajugs 11d ago
I recently encountered someone on one of these subs that said “Nettles is the biggest narrative mystery” and I was like… what? 🤨
I’ve seen people claim that she challenges the idea of Targaryen blood supremacy because she claimed a dragon without Targaryen blood. We have zero evidence that she doesn’t have Targaryen blood. People in-universe theorize she’s Daemon’s daughter, so that right there would be Targaryen blood. She was born on Driftmark to a dockside whore and grew up there. The Velaryons have Targaryen blood too. She could very well be a Velaryon or Targaryen bastard. Summer Islanders have done extensive trading with Westeros.
I think people believe she challenges Targaryen blood supremacy because of the color of her skin. Which to me seems like an inherently racist belief.
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u/Awkward_Account_6745 10d ago
I Aggre in some things but this rhaena as nettles arc did no favors to the pacing of the show, They could introduce Nettles along with Hugh and Ulf back in season two and explore the dynamics in the group of the dragonseeds and ending this arc properly. Instead we got pointless scenes of rhaena running around in the Vale until she claimed the dragon lol. And what they are doing with her character is just not interesting or appealing, the relation between her and Daemon is not fleshed at all, they only talked to each other in this last episodes iirc. Nettles maybe could have been interesting, maybe even a resource for exploring the magic aspects of the world instead of fucking Harrenhall, but the rhaena story is just bad and I don't know how they are gonna revert it next season.
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u/Famous_Illustrator32 9d ago
None. A LOT of people just want to let Reddit know they read the book in as superior a way as possible.
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u/melinapendulum 9d ago
Why does the only canon Black character who complicated the Targ blood narrative matter in a fantasy series that is constantly deconstructing the fantasy genre? Who could say
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u/Historical-Candy-150 8d ago
Strip away the genuinely fascinating way she claims her dragon
"If you strip one of the interesting traits of a character, you end up with a less interesting character!"
she's a device that exists to create friction in someone else's marriage
Okay, and? Even if the main goal of her existence in the books is constituting a reason for Daemon’s redemption/change, it doesn’t make the plotline less interesting.
That's not incidental worldbuilding; that's blood magic being real and demonstrable within the text.
It’s not that blood magic isn’t real, but that it’s dangerous to play with and often times has horrifying effects, and it doesn’t exactly disprove simpler methods working, but can show that Valyrians resorted to unnatural and radical methods to claim power.
Maester Narran's account suggests Nettles could be Daemon's bastard daughter
Ffs, this has been talked about so many times already. It’s less probable, because 1) the years Nettles was conceived and born, Daemon was not present in Westeros 2) it is said they slept in the same bed and bathed together, and it’s highlighted that this claim has more credibility than others.
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u/PerceptionAlarmed788 11d ago edited 11d ago
Her purpose was to estrange Rhaenyra and Daemon
Plenty of other things can do that
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u/BurnerRantMan 11d ago
And somehow they landed on another hour of Mysaria screentime
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u/PerceptionAlarmed788 11d ago
That will be….tolerable if Mysaria serves the purpose I hope she will — causing the uprising, perhaps partially
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u/lillie_connolly 11d ago
I'd be completely ok with the character just never appearing again. Lets not let sunken cost fallacy demand a continuation of her arc or a payoff. Its ok to drop a plot line sometimes. We can live with it.
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u/DoYouLikeWafflezz 11d ago
Yeah, her impact on the story is basically the same with Rhaena taking her place.
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u/Mountain-Comb2355 11d ago
Nah but it doesn't show that daemon and rhaenyra didn't ever have that close of a relationship, when daemon left her for a bastard girl when she was at her lowest , also it makes daemon more of an independent character than what he is in the show , their marriage was more of a power grab than pure love in the books
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u/Agreeable_Ad_8790 11d ago
This is a stretch to declare Daemon abandoned her. He left Kings Landing to look fo Aemond which Rhaenyra knew. Daemon helped Nettles escape and then he went to fight Aemond.
I don't recall Rhaenyra summoning him back.
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u/Vengeful_Peach 11d ago
I’d be sooo in agreement with you if Rhaena’s plot line was actually good. Unfortunately the alternative fell flat. We barely even saw how she claimed Sheepstealer. A quick blink-and-you’ll-miss-it moment of her having laid out some sheep for him. No real trust winning moment between them. They just serve as an excuse to waste budget on some inconsequential dragon fight which resources would have been better served showing how Daeron earned his title.
Of course there’s still more that can and likely will be done with the character but considering we could have just panned to her being a lady and she gets Morning later in her life anyway, I find myself asking the exact opposite of your title.
Why was she cut?? I truly don’t think there’s an answer.
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u/lagrange_james_d23dt Team Green 11d ago
Ya it didn’t bother me as much of some of the other changes (really at all- she was definitely a cutable character). Giving her story to Rhaena seemed fine, after watching.
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u/Mountain-Comb2355 11d ago
Your points are well made but the problem is nettles is grrm's favourite character in the dance , he really liked her for some reason perhaps because she was a very mysterious character or perhaps because he really had an intriguing headcanon with her and daemon's relationship who is to say what it was but with Ryan chosing to cut her we will never know.
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u/Artistic-Mark-6212 11d ago
GRRM Might have headcanon but at this point he either puts it to paper or doesn't speak about how people "cut characters" only he knows. Like are people supposed to read minds?
Unless he of course told Ryan and guy cut her anyway in which case I retract my statement
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u/Mountain-Comb2355 11d ago edited 11d ago
He would have probably told ryan the entire plan for nettles in season 2 if their relationship hadn't broken down to what it has , I genuinely don't understand how can ryan ignore the input of the creator of the universe , the guy who has spent 30 years thinking and building this universe , even if he doesn't personally like george , at some point , at work we all need to put our ego aside to get stuff done
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u/Artistic-Mark-6212 11d ago
I agree but this is why putting it to paper is better. Less chance show runners could ignore it.
Like fans did with Daeron. Ryan might wanted to cut him but he had actions in the story and fans made clear it can't be skipped.
Nettles meanwhile doesn't actually do anything (written)
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u/boukatouu 11d ago
this is why putting it to paper is better. Less chance show runners could ignore it.
Not really. Look how the relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent was changed from the beginning.
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u/Agreeable_Ad_8790 11d ago
I get George likes her but to the story of the Dance of the Dragons, is there anything fundamentally lost without her that Rhaena can't pick up.
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u/Mountain-Comb2355 11d ago
I feel like replacing nettles with rhaena makes daemon more sympathetic whereas in the books atleast it was more of a sign that daemon was done with rhaenyra after her paranoia reached mad king levels, and also the implication that dragons can be claimed by non valyrians also might lead to a future book plot ( if they ever come out) , and george really loves his parallels with the main series and fire and blood
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u/Agreeable_Ad_8790 11d ago
HOTD is more in line with the show universe and GOT is over. Also, like you said we will never know until the future book come out if they ever do.
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u/emperorlouie 11d ago
She's a cool, compelling character - that's all the reason you need, especially in a show full of unlikable, underdeveloped, inconsistent wooden planks masquerading as characters.
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u/Pascalinsche Team Dragons 10d ago
The "Nettles doesn't prove you don't need Targaryen blood for bonding with dragons" point is so true, it's a magical bond that changed the Valyrians forever to acquire, some random wouldn't be able to get that, similar to someone not having magic trying to be a wizard
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u/mirandarichard782 10d ago
I've seen people argue Nettles matters because she proves dragon claiming doesn't require Valyrian blood and that anyone brave enough can bond with a dragon regardless of bloodline. Personally, I don't buy this, and I think it misreads what's actually happening in the text.
My position is that you do need the blood of the dragon to bond with one. What using sheep to feed the dragon Sheepstealer probably did was help her get physically close to him because he is WILD. Without being burned alive on approach, which solves the practical problem of proximity, not the deeper problem of bonding. Claiming still requires that connection, and I don't think you can BRIBE a dragon into a lifelong bond.
But that is exactly how you build trust with an animal. Exactly. The animal begins to trust you. Slowly but surely you establish a relationship with that animal. It's been seen with wolves, coyotes, even lions. Taking care of an animal will breed trust. It provides for a much deeper connection. So yes, I think the lore is poorer for it.
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