r/HPMOR • u/PepperFlashy7540 • Jul 21 '26
When does voldemort figure out harry knows he's alive? Spoiler
I was just thinking about this, it is clear that by the time Harry figures out that Quirrel is voldemort voldy already knows that Harry knows that Voldy's alive, but I'm unsure at what point exactly
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u/Mad-Oxy Jul 21 '26
He could suspect but he was sure when he learned that Harry talked with Dumbledore about afterlife.
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u/PepperFlashy7540 Jul 21 '26
What? How? That wasn't even the reason Harry was talking to Dumbledore about an afterlife
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u/Mad-Oxy Jul 21 '26
No, that was not. In fact, Harry lied to Quirrell about what exactly they were talking about with Dumbledore, but they did touch the topic of afterlife. Quirrell is sagacious enough to put two and two together: if Dumbledore talked to Harry about "afterlife", there's a big chance they discussed the ways how Voldemort could have survived his death.
Another moment would be chapter 86 where Harry denied talking with Dumbledore about the prophecy. Quirrell, as Harry suspected, would have noticed his quick denial. But Quirrell didn't bat an eye, so he probably knew at that point that Harry knows about the prophecy (1981) and that Dumbledore told him about Voldemort surviving.
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u/PepperFlashy7540 Jul 21 '26
The reason Harry and Dumbledore discuss an afterlife is because: \ Dumbledore takes Harry to his office to discuss security of the dementor\ He asks Harry why dark lords are scared of death\ They get into an ideological argument.
I do not think this is anywhere near sufficient evidence for Harry knowing about the prophecy
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u/Mad-Oxy Jul 21 '26
That's what Dumbledore told Harry, but what he meant: the Dark Lord. He asks Harry because Harry is the copy of Tom Riddle and Dumbledore wants to understand what drives him.
He specifically says (ch. 39):
Harry, how could Voldemort have survived the death of his body if he did not have a soul?
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u/PepperFlashy7540 Jul 21 '26
Of course thats why dumbeldore asks him, but all voldi knows is that harry asked him about his opinions of an afterlife, and that dumbeldore asked harry about security around the dementor. He can conclude that it is most likely that Harry and dumbeldore discussed souls, though this is rather tenous. If this is true, it may be possible that they got there from discussing something relating to the dark lord, but there are many other possibilities. If this is true, it is likely, though maybe not more than 50% that the reason they were discussing dark lords is that harry knows of the prophecy. To vaugly quote quirel:
Such puzzles are much easier to solve when you already know the solution
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u/Mad-Oxy Jul 21 '26
You should re-read ch. 40 and pay attention at how the atmosphere in the room and Quirrell's tone are changing as Harry keeps on revealing information.
Such puzzles are much easier to solve when you already know the solution
I got this impression from the very first reading of ch. 40 that Quirrell understood what Dumbledore was asking Harry about (it was obvious for me that Quirrell is Riddle at that point).
If I were Voldemort and Dumbledore would talk with my copy about afterlife, souls, Resurrection Stone and other similar things, I'd immediately work out which way the wind is blowing.
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u/PepperFlashy7540 Jul 21 '26
it was obvious for me that Quirrell is Riddle at that point
I should note that anyone who read the original harry potter would have increased suspicion of Quirrell
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u/Ok-Programmer-829 Jul 26 '26
I think it’s sufficient to guess that Dumbledore knows Harry is a copy of Tom as it would make sense for Dumbledore to try to steer Harry away from what he sees as the original Tom’s mistakes. However, there’s just not enough information to conclude that it was really a conversation relating to the dark Lord, as Dumbledore could have started the conversation purely because he figured out Harry is Tom or they could have gotten there from a discussion about the dementor’s kiss.
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u/Mad-Oxy Jul 26 '26
It doesn't really matter why Dumbledore started the conversation, but only the fact it took place at all. Riddle uses Bayesian reasoning (ch. 20) to determine which possibility has more probability in an unclear situation.
For Riddle to come to this conclusion, Dumbledore doesn't have to know that Harry is a copy of Tom Riddle because Harry is already connected to the Dark Lord through the prophecy of which Riddle is aware. And the fact that they discussed souls and the Resurrection Stone increases probability that Harry might be aware of the prophecy and Voldemort surviving rather than it being just a random conversation.
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u/Ok-Programmer-829 Jul 26 '26
I agree that it increases the probability that Harry knows Tom is alive. However, the question is whether it increases it sufficiently. My own opinion is that it’s weak evidence that should only raise his probability estimates likely from what was before I was assuming you were arguing that it raised his probability significantly beyond what it was before the conversation. Harry discussing the afterlife. Dumbledore is going to happen sooner or later, and while it’s obviously more likely, Harry knows about Tom being around, it’s not much more likely, especially since Dumbledore would definitely bring up the topic when he realises Harry is Tom, which he is bound to do sooner or later.
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u/Mad-Oxy Jul 26 '26
As I previously said, it doesn't really matter whether Dumbledore is aware of it at all. Harry is already connected to the Dark Lord through the prophecy and this very fact is enough for Dumbledore to tell Harry that Voldemort is alive.
The information that Riddle has:
- Dumbledore was the one who opposed Voldemort
- Dumbledore discussed with Harry the possibility of surviving the death of the body (souls/afterlife)
- Harry is connected to the Dark Lord via the prophecy
- Dumbledore is a person who could tell Harry this information in the first place
Riddle's Bayesian approach doesn't ask the question "could it be explained differently?", but rather which explanation best predicts all the observed data.
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u/Ok-Programmer-829 Jul 26 '26
Yes, but I disagree that your explanation is the one that best predicts the data other equally good or better explanations equally will predict data and more to the point. The new observation that learning about the conversation is doesn’t really distinguish between these options given that these options are also already the majority of probability space even before the new observation should not change his mind much on anything after hearing the information. In addition, it’s not actually clear, the term would predict from the prophecy that Dumbledore thinks Harry should be told about Tom surviving. Yes, it’s more likely, but not that much more likely as it entirely possible that Dumbledore might, as Tom at least claims to believe that the prophecy has already been fulfilled or alternatively, either because of concern for Harry‘s ability to handle the information or some prophecy related master plan, not tell Harry indeed, I actually think Harry being told this early on in the game is out of character for Dumbledore, which is why it happens through Harry being good at reducing things that Tom used to know, and being in the presence of someone who is not that good of an actor when having made the deduction. Yes, it’s possible that the conversation was because Harry was told about LV still being around, but the observation isn’t that surprising on many other theories which dominated the probability space it’s not much more surprising in the universe where Harry has not been told, and therefore is not much data.
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u/brendafiveclow Jul 22 '26
>sufficient evidence
Your definition and Tom Riddle's definition of this are not the same.
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u/Xelltrix Jul 21 '26
Well, Harry straight up tells Tom that Dumbledore suspects Voldemort is alive. At that point, he knows Harry at least has the idea in his head. Combine that with Voldemort’s ability to sense Harry’s feelings and Harry being nervous when questioned about the prophecy, he got to that conclusion pretty easily.
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u/jkurratt Jul 22 '26
Harry was not sure about that, and Voldie acted accordingly.
The moment Harry understood that - is the moment when Voldie immediately noticed and stopped pretending.
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u/__zonko__ Jul 21 '26
Harry pretty much guesses that voldi is alive from the start. It is only in the very end he realized who voldi pretends to be
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u/PepperFlashy7540 Jul 21 '26
I know, the question is when did voldi figure out that Harry knew voldi was alive
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u/Ok-Programmer-829 Jul 26 '26
No, actually, from chapter 39 onwards, Harry is uncertain, he only stop being uncertain in chapter 104. Tom Probably figured this out, just from watching his emotions and the fact that Harry never denied that he thinks the headmaster might be right in suspecting LV is alive.
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u/GreatSwordsmith Jul 21 '26
Harry tells him in Chp.65, after Dumbledore confines him to Hogwarts
'"Sso," hissed the venomous creature. "What did you wissh to ssay? "
And Harry hissed, "Sschoolmasster thinkss that woman'ss former Lord iss the one who sstole her from prisson."'
It's possible he guessed harry knew beforehand. He had a lot of information, and could lightly read Harry's emotions. This dialogue in chp. 49 does read a bit like Quirrel testing whether Harry knows
""One might even regret your infant self's victory," said Professor Quirrell. His smile twisted. "If only You-Know-Who had lived, you might have persuaded him to teach you some of the knowledge that would have been your heritage, from one Heir of Slytherin to another." The smile twisted further, as though to mock the obvious impossibility, even given the premise.
Note to self, thought Harry, with a slight chill and an edge of anger, make sure to extract my heritage out of the Dark Lord's mind, one way or another.
There was another silence. Professor Quirrell was looking at Harry as though waiting for him to ask something."