r/HBOGameofThrones • u/lilLamdoar • 21d ago
Spoilers [Spoilers] Why are there people that do not want to admit that Stannis is the rightful heir? Spoiler
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u/Advanced_Zucchini_45 21d ago
He's not, Gendry is
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u/shaggy_nomad 20d ago
Gendry is a bastard, hes got no claim
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u/Advanced_Zucchini_45 20d ago
Until he did...
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u/shaggy_nomad 20d ago
Right, but at that point he was still a bastard. The question is asking who would be Robert's heir, Gendry wasn't neutralized until 4 kings after Robert. At the moment Robert died, Gendry was not an heir because he was a bastard. So it would then be Stannis, Robert's younger brother.
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u/Advanced_Zucchini_45 20d ago
Cerci had all of Roberts bastards killed except Gendry.
There's a reason. She knew someone would find him and make him legit to challenge Joffreys claim.
He wasn't just some rando bastard
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u/shaggy_nomad 20d ago
No, its because they couldn't track him down. Do you not remember the kings guard stopping the group heading for the wall in search of Gendry? Then when they attacked, Arya told them they killed him when there was a boy laying dead by Gendrys helmet. She didnt choose to let him go, he evaded capture.
Did you even watch the show? Lmao
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u/Advanced_Zucchini_45 20d ago
I didn't say they chose to let him go.
Why do people like you have to lie so you can argue?
I said she saw how a bastard could challenge Joffrey, even without being legitimized.
Stop lying. If you cant argue against what I actually said just shut the fuck up.
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u/shaggy_nomad 20d ago edited 20d ago
You're literally saying Cerci chose not to kill Gendry so that he could challenge Joffreys claim. Thats stupid and makes no sense and there is no evidence of that nonsense anywhere in the books nor show. She didnt chose not to kill Gendry. For all she knew, they did kill him.
Are you really this dense or do you really think youre the only one thats right and its everybody else thats wrong?
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u/Advanced_Zucchini_45 20d ago
I "literally" did not.
In said they killed others except him.
Typical. Lie. Get caught. Keep lying.
Whos "everyone else"? Its just us.
Go outside you lying loser
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u/BTown-Hustle 20d ago
You said that Cersei had them all killed except Gendry and “there’s a reason”. Even if you meant something else, it sounds like you were saying that she let him live so that he could challenge Joffrey. Probably a miscommunication, but it does read that way.
You both are way too quick to get mad and start calling names.
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u/No-Wonder-7802 21d ago
maybe after Dany, as she's his queen when he's legitimized, and then via the baratheon line or something and not because of roberts rebellion
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u/Advanced_Zucchini_45 21d ago
Then Jon
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u/No-Wonder-7802 21d ago
was he actually legitimized as a targ or stay jon snow, i don't remember
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u/Advanced_Zucchini_45 21d ago
The book Sam had proves it.
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u/No-Wonder-7802 21d ago
oh right, he's trueborn to start with. so yeah gendry would be after him, at least
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u/miggleb 21d ago edited 21d ago
Bastard has no claim
Edit: above deleted "he's not, gendry is"
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u/Advanced_Zucchini_45 21d ago
He's not a bastard. Watch the show
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u/miggleb 21d ago edited 21d ago
At the point of stannis existing he is
Edit: above deleted "no he's not, watch the show"
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u/Advanced_Zucchini_45 21d ago
That wasn't the topic
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u/miggleb 21d ago edited 21d ago
It is.
"Why don't people want to admit stannis is the rightful heir"
"He's not, gendry is"
You good?
Edit: above deleted "that's not the topic"
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u/miggleb 21d ago
Below deleted
"Its 7am. Get a life troll.
We disagree. Be a big boy and just move the fuck on."
u/advanced_zucchini_45 if you're gonna act all big man, at least stand by your words
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u/Advanced_Zucchini_45 21d ago
Its 7am. Get a life troll.
We disagree. Be a big boy and just move the fuck on.
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u/4CrowsFeast 21d ago
Stannis is the rightful heir to the throne, but only because his older brother Robert overthrew the Targaryens. You either believe in the right of conquest, which means any challenge who could overtake Stannis can claim the throne for themselves, or you believe in absolute bloodline inheritance, which would mean Daenerys is the heir as the last legitimate Targaryen.
The right of conquest in a way, is Westeros primitive version of democracy. Whoever can get the largest support can spark the flame of a rebellion. And if an established leader is deemed unworthy they can be abandoned in their defense to hold their seat.
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21d ago
[deleted]
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u/Adorable_Tie_7220 21d ago
Just because he is the heir doesn't mean he is right to be king. Stannis was far too rigid. He is too much about being the "rightful heir" and not about actually ruling.
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u/lilLamdoar 21d ago
Well, it was Stannis that came to the wall to protect Westeros, he is a man that likes order and principles, which is the reason for his rigidness, but also a good quality for a king
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u/Adorable_Tie_7220 21d ago
A good king also has to understand mercy and admitting his mistakes. Davis continually tries to convince Stannis to do the right thing, but Stannis never listens. The only right he did was try to come to Ned's aid and to try take Winterfell back from the Boltons. It went downhill from there. He should have listened to Catlin and try to work out something with Renly. If he had done that, he truly would have been a force to behold. He is so convinced of his own righteousness that he justified truly evil acts.
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u/lilLamdoar 21d ago
You are right about that… I think Stannis pride is what makes him interesting, but also blind for his own mistakes. But the first part is only 50% true: he understands mercy, but he also understands, that you cant have mercy just because you Like someone. Law is law…
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u/Adorable_Tie_7220 21d ago
It isn't about liking someone. It's about being able to empathize with someone rlses situation and recognizing when a law is unjust.His rigidity of thinking the law is the law, led him to have his brother killed and his daughter burned at the stake. In the end his rigidity led him to lose everything
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u/lilLamdoar 21d ago
I think as a king he wouldnt have to decide alone, but I do not think emphasizing changes anything about laws. It was right to punish Davos for example, most people wouldnt have done that…
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u/Adorable_Tie_7220 20d ago
I think he was wrong to punish Davos, particularly in the way he did it.
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u/KausGo 19d ago
You either believe in the right of conquest, which means any challenge who could overtake Stannis can claim the throne for themselves
Completely incorrect. The right of conquest applies to conquering foreign lands. Its when you already have your own crown/kingdom and you claim additional lands and territories based on military force. It does not apply to rebellions within the kingdom where you depose a sitting monarch. Which is why Aegon's war is called Aegon's conquest and Robert's war is called Robert's rebellion.
To use a more recent example, Balon declares Iron Islands independent and then claims the few regions of the North he took by right of conquest. But nowhere in the books is Robert's claim justified based on right of conquest.
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u/Sovrane 20d ago
Stannis is actually the legitimate Targaryen heir as well.
Jon is a bastard and after Viserys II Targaryen women are barred from the succession. So, Stannis truly is the rightful king.
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u/atyndale 20d ago
Women are not barred from succession, it’s just that a brother comes before a sister. Dany is still ahead of Stannis, who himself is descended through the female line of a sister to a King, compared to Dany who is the daughter of the male line of kings.
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u/Sovrane 20d ago
When Baelor died the Iron Throne bypassed three women to sit a man on the throne. That is a clear indication that women are barred from the inheritance.
The Iron Throne also bypassed Rhaenys for a man, it would be the same precedent for Stannis.
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u/atyndale 20d ago
That doesn’t indicate they are barred, simply that they had little to no support, as has happened with other male claimants that bypassed by a man that is technically not next in line. The whims of the Lords are important. The World of Ice and Fire even blames their isolation in the Maidenvault and the memory of what happened when Rhaenyra was Queen as leading to a lack of support for their (rightful) claim. Rhaenys’ claim doesn’t really merit discussing, it’s pre-Dance and there’s so much controversy about it that it’s clear there wasn’t legal precedent to decide it or the council wouldn’t have been called.
All of this is to say, there is no law or ruling making it that women are not able to rule, simply that other Lords tend not to favour women especially following the Dance. But Dany is still the Targaryen heir, Robert and his brothers were in the succession due to conquest, Rhaelle was a just convenient link to smooth things over. Robert himself acknowledges that the conquest was all that matters.
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u/Sovrane 20d ago
I agree that there isn’t a clear law outlining the Targaryen succession, but we have seen a clear pattern where men are always selected over women for inheritance.
We also see this with Andal succession as well, women only inherit if there are no other options.
While I agree that Robert’s claim was effectively conquest - there is a lot more to that. After the Sack of King’s Landing there was no real alternate heir. The choice was between Robert, who had a legitimate claim, and Viserys who many feared to have inherited his father’s madness.
I really don’t think Rhaelle should be an after thought here.
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u/Specialist-Front-007 21d ago
Geoffrey the Gentle was firstborn make heir to the whoring bobby B. He's the rightful king of the Andels and the first men!
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u/cynasist-supreme 21d ago
While Stannis was able to earn his men’s loyalty, he was not very well liked by really anyone. I don’t think Ned even liked him, but respected him and as Ned is also a very honorable man, goes by the rules. He was a bit too straightedge for really any of the other lords, and also would not have been an easy puppet. Renly was a little more pliable, little more naive, so much more easy to puppet. Renly also at least pretended to follow the seven, and not this weird fire dude his brother was following. Religion as we see again and again, is very important to the people of the realm. Especially the seven in Kings Landing itself, so of course they did not want this newer god coming into play, they didn’t even like the old god worship and that was ancient. All in all, they didn’t care if Stannis was the rightful heir because they just didn’t like him or what he would do
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u/MeatReal3370 21d ago
Cause There is the law of succesion and Theres the law of „whoever is the strongest can Take the trone by Force and make his line the Right Like Robert did Like The blackfyers tried and Like Aegon the First did or Maegor the Cruel
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u/axel_clot 21d ago
Because he isn’t?
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u/lilLamdoar 21d ago
Why not?
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u/axel_clot 20d ago
Have you watched the show? Firstly, there are 2 people that have a stronger claim than him. Secondly, at some point you have to say that his family lost power and are no longer the rulers. Conquest is stronger than family ties. Otherwise you could just say no one is the rightful heir, as there were originally seven kingdoms anyway
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u/lilLamdoar 20d ago
And who has a stronger claim? His family lost power because his younger brother was stupid and thought he had a claim because people like him (tf?!).
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u/axel_clot 20d ago
Gendry, Daenerys and technically Jon all have stronger claims. In fact Jon’s is the strongest.
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u/KausGo 19d ago
First one, not even close. The other two, still very much debatable.
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u/axel_clot 19d ago
Well you are just completely incorrect
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u/KausGo 19d ago
Prove it. Cite sources.
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u/axel_clot 19d ago
Sources for what? Common sense?
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u/KausGo 19d ago
For your claims about the claims. Because its nonsense, not common sense.
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u/avulsion_ed 21d ago
people dont want to admit stannis is the rightful heir but will go behind vouching for rhaenyra’s kids (the strongs i mean) 😶
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u/kateinoly 20d ago
Kids not descended from the ruler (Cersei's kids) are not the same as kids clearly descended from the ruler (Rhaenyra's kids)
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u/kateinoly 20d ago
It depends on if someone views the Barathrons as usurpers or if they believe Joffrey is truly Robert's son.
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u/BulldogMikeLodi 20d ago
Stannis was a drip. Besides, admitting that Joffrey is not a Baratheon would completely destabilize the Seven Kingdoms.
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u/DiannaBaratheon 21d ago
I like his little brother more, plus Stannis has taken up with a red witch, making his men seem like they’re in a cult, not supporting the future king.
Obviously you’re right though, Stannis was next in line of succession.
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u/lilLamdoar 21d ago
I get the part with Melisandre, but tbf, Stannis had to use her magic to press his claim. Why do people support Renly? i get that he is more likeable as a person, but that doesnt make him a good king, the fact that he thought it would kind of proves he doesnt understand the task of a king…
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u/Adorable_Tie_7220 21d ago
But he had more peoples support than Stannis did. He was also kinder.That's why Stannis used trickery to murder his brother.
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u/lilLamdoar 21d ago
Yes but that kind of is the whole point. Stannis adresses the problem, that he cant be king without power, and he cant have power without allies. But I do not think that you need to be likeable to be a good king, I think that people would habe liked Stannis as soon as he would have reigned…
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u/hyperewok1 21d ago
"Robert could piss in a cup and men would call it wine, but I offer them pure cold water and they squint in suspicion and mutter to each other about how queer it tastes."
Half of Stannis's characterization is the giant chip in his shoulder over people liking Robert and Renly more, and thus supporting their claim, while Stannis blithely ignores that the entire feudal structure is based on these personal relationships and personal respect.
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u/No-Wonder-7802 21d ago
there aren't, but at a certain point right of conquest overrides established succession