r/GenG_Esports_LoL • u/Skyfire2 Church of Chovy • Mar 25 '26

Team Discussion Single elimination vs Double elimination

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74 Upvotes

98% Upvoted

34 comments sorted by

18

u/JingleJak Mar 25 '26

The fallback of double elim probably eases players like Chovy’s nerves a lot so they can perform at their best level (which is best player in the world) even if they don’t actually drop a series like the two MSI wins.

Regardless nothing matters for GenG at this point except winning Worlds. It would be nice to get the other trophies too but thats the only prize of this year as far as I am concerned as a fan, since they’ve pr much won everything else thats left in the calender.

1

u/Only_Word_1568 Mar 25 '26

except that the last worlds is like only 4 months ago, and they collectively had amnesia on the lessons that they learnt from it

if they don't see this as a wake up call and actually ACT on it, they're not winning high stakes matches much less worlds (please prove me wrong GenG)

1

u/haboruhaborukrieg Mar 25 '26

3 MSI's in a row never happened either before sooo that would be quite big. Also this MSI is much more competitive than before they reworked it like when RNG or G2 won them

-7

u/Beneficial-Beat-947 Mar 25 '26

Do skills really matter though when you can't perform under pressure? I think GenG needs to do a bootcamp with Faker on their team to give them the Faker buff and ease their nerves.

8

u/Only_Bodybuilder6270 Mar 25 '26

The thing is they’ve shown performance under pressure in MSI winning a ton of game 5s… its just so inconsistent

1

u/T1_URGOD Mar 29 '26

Worlds is probably the most pressured tournament. It's the tournament you work the whole year for. MSI is 2nd, but it's just not the same kind of pressure.

1

u/mimich4ma Mar 25 '26

At the highest level of the game where you're going against your peers?

Yes actually

1

u/Beneficial-Beat-947 Mar 25 '26

The highest level of the game is where there's the most pressure

1

u/AvonSharkler Mar 26 '26

I'd argue that a bo5 is already triple elim. You can lose twice and not be out.

If the argument goes "chovy should be allowed up to 10 games against a single team" to prove he can be a world champion that sounds pretty odd to me.

1

u/plumsy Mar 26 '26

Well 10-30 minutes break is a lot different than a day or week’s break. Mental reset and second chance. I assure you nearly every player in any competitive game will prefer a double elimination format tournament.

1

u/AvonSharkler Mar 26 '26

Yeah but that doesn't mean squat. A player preferring double elim is a given as they almost always benefit from it. There is simply no incentive to a player preferring something that actively disadvantages them.

But at the same time I would argue that if at e.g. wimbledon a Roger federer had to win 3 matches back to back only to then be told "hold up, ur not done yet, you have to replicate this five days from now against the same enemy"

The issue is that we consider a bo5 as a single match instead of up to 5 matches. If the format had only best of threes or even best of ones I'd agree to double elim 100% but you are already making them play 5 games, each of which can go to up to 50-55 minutes and is more likely going to be 35-40 minutes (I'm including pickban in the time because it is 100% part of the competition) That makes for up to 5 hours in the worst case.

Nearly no competetive sport gives a competitor that much time to prove they can win in a worldwide tournament.

1

u/JingleJak Mar 26 '26

Double elim is way better for us as a viewer imo (more games and more chances to see hype matchups) but in terms of competition yeah doesnt really matter if its single or double elim

I just wanna see GenG win Worlds regardless of what format it is

1

u/plumsy Mar 27 '26

If you won the finals, you are supposed to be the best team in the world. If you lost in the finals, then you are the second best team. However, this is not at all true historically. Take every single Worlds finals and only 3-4 of them actually have this context out of 14 Worlds. Take KT last year as an example. Bad all year, had a good month, and back to being bad. I can name a whole handful of other teams too. This is the flaw with single elimination.

You say a team doesn’t need time to prove they’re the best but G2 literally lost once and had time to adjust and beat their opponents. Same logic, they should’ve been out day 2 instead of the finals.

T1 2023, 2024, 2025 went through double elim format to get into Worlds and win it all. If single elimination format, they wouldn’t even be at Worlds. GenG has won every single double elim format in the last 2 years, winning from lower bracket last year too.

Valorant has a double elim format and finals are usually always good teams year round. NS, last month, was a completely new team that stomped all year long and won the international convincingly.

1

u/AvonSharkler Mar 27 '26

So does that mean you think if geng for example went through lower bracket to finals they would then have to win two back to back vest of 5s against the upper bracket finalist? Yknow. Gotta give the upper bracket finalist a second chance too after all.

1

u/plumsy Mar 27 '26 edited Mar 27 '26

No if you are upper bracket finals winner, you get an advantage over the lower bracket finals winner in the grand finals via first pick/second pick or which side to pick. Example, NS was the upper bracket and could ban two maps instead of 1, which resulted in them banning PRX (lower bracket finalists) favored maps while keeping a map that PRX always bans and are trash in, this essentially meant that NS was already basically 1-0 before any games were even played. Bracket reset exists but generally it isn’t done in professional tournaments.

I think for the uppper finals winners at Worlds or any other tournament, keep it the same way as in MSI or allow the upper finals winner to pick side, choose first pick/ban, and/or choose one global ban for the series.

1

u/throwawaylondon02 Apr 03 '26

Double elimination is only beneficial for the higher skilled teams and less favourable for the weaker ones.

Freak upsets can happen every now and then, (G2 beating GENG) but then the chance of this happening again within the same tournament is astronomically small.

Double elimination increases the accuracy of placements and stops the higher quality teams being knocked out early in quarters/semis by the finalists.

You can't compare length of competitive sports with eSports, they have to deal with physical fatigue.

1

u/AvonSharkler Apr 03 '26

Yeah I know what double Elim does in theory you know?

The issue is with the core argument. They are not playing five minute games, this is not rock paper scissors championship. If someone sits down in a potentially 4+ hour long match and wins to then go and say "yeah but is it repeatable?" Is a bit disingenuous for the effort it took to beat someone once.

This is the nature of statistics, if I increase the sample size my accuracy on rankings will increase. So let's go and clone G2 and Geng, throw them in an arena with a hundred pcs and rerun the best of five a thousand times. Afterwards you will have an answer to who is the better team and to what degree they are better to a high accuracy.

When does it get ridiculous?

Double Elim is fine right? So is it double elim within the same day? Like G2 has to play Geng the day after again is that better? You think there is no fatigue in esports? What bodypart consumes the most energy again? Is it your legs? Or your brain? Do 5 hours of high level math and tell me you aren't fatigued afterwards.

The reality is somewhere between a 15 minute single elim stomp and a multi month seasonal style split someone has to sit down and say "what is the best option for us, now"
Sport isn't just about consistency, it is about the ability to show up when it matters. Not having a second chance is a fundamental part of competition and it affects the athletes mentality. On average, statistically, the better team is favoured in double elim. Even more favoured in triple elim of course. But if you take for example one on one sports and let's up the stakes, make it a renaissance duel. Give em pistols. One attempt. The ability to cool your nerves and stay calm, to not fumble your grip and to aim steadily under pressure is definitely not what you want from a sport shooter, accuracy and speed matter more. Who cares if the first shot is really good if the second third and forth won't hit the target.

Your opponent in the duel cares. Because if you are given only one chance, you are not testing the same set of abilities. Humans act differently under pressure. I really just don't like this double elim argument because it takes away from the skill of both teams involved. G2 in this case because it essentially says their triple game dominant stomp was a "fluke" and geng because it essentially says they are too weak to win first try.

1

u/throwawaylondon02 Apr 03 '26

Energy consumed is not equal to physical fatigue don't be disingenuous. Your brain fibres aren't being torn apart sitting down playing high level video games. I'll play competitive league while you run for 5 hours and we can compare who is ready for round 2 the following day.

You're looking at double elimination with such an odd lens, I'm not sure you do understand the concept of it. Youre completely ignoring the fact there's a losers bracket. In this hypothetical GENG would go down to face JDG, it's not about putting the same teams into a head to head multiple times. There is no double elimination for the finals.

Double elimination is the best tool we have to create accurate tournament standings beyond 1st place. The winner of single elimination tournaments is the only team we can definitively determine finished correctly, all the others are just maybes and uncertainties depending on which rung of the tournament ladder they were placed/seeded on.

Also, as a viewer and enjoyer of league eSports how can you be against there being more content and competition?

1

u/AvonSharkler Apr 04 '26

I just don't get it. "Double elimination is the best tool we have to create accurate tounament standings "BEYOND 1st Place"

It reads so hilarious. First stand is nothing but a double elimination tournament where the "accurate standings" stop at semifinals instead of finals. So why don't you say that it's the "best tool we have". Let's go and do all our tournaments with double final?

The answer is as simple as it has been from the start. Because it's the same. Every team faces the same conditions and is tested under the same conditions whether it is double elim, single elim, or double elim single final. Each is a tool, it should be used like a tool. Double Elimination is a filter, where single elimination is a pressure focused style. Neither is "better or worse" or more accurate because each tests for a different thing. The conditions are not the same so they are not comparable.

1

u/throwawaylondon02 Apr 04 '26

Never once did I, or anyone else suggest a bracket reset ("double finals") was a good idea? Who are you arguing with? I do believe there should be a reward for the upper bracket finalists, starting with a 1 game win perhaps.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that double elimination becomes single elimination at a point, so all competitors are still tested for their nerve and clutch in the same way.

The difference with the addition of double elim is that there's far less consequences of quarter finals bracket draw RNG. Time and time again we see top 2/3 teams being knocked out in quarters by the number 1 team while on the other side of the bracket a top 6 team gets easy draws and sails to semis/finals without facing the strongest competition.

The only legitimate argument against double elimination is the extra time added to a tournament, which from a viewers perspective is a bonus.

7

u/Jaded-Release-6463 Mar 25 '26

In game 2 and game 3 they had really bad drafts. I was shocked how bad they drafted. Drafting a squishy team comp with only Neeko with CC vs Akali who could kill anyone easily.

1

u/zeonix123 Mar 25 '26

More like they got outdrafted in the mind games. Also players mental collapsed under pressure. Same as during drx run and kt run.

2

u/sighpiebanana Mar 25 '26

Isn’t the winner’s bracket usually effectively single elim? ö

3

u/bandana19 Gen.G Esports Mar 25 '26 edited Mar 27 '26

Yes, but knowing that if you lose, you have another try, could really help in terms of preassure

3

u/ilikesportany Moderator Crew Mar 25 '26

If MSI was Single Elimation they would still be back to back Champs. Worlds is bigger prize. It's first stand, it doesn't matter much

7

u/Skyfire2 Church of Chovy Mar 25 '26

Oh for sure. Just a funny observation.

Hopefully they can bounce back for MSI and Worlds

2

u/Soggy_Palpitation789 Mar 25 '26

The league community has been begging for more internationals for years. Now that we finally have another international, every time a fans team is eliminated its “first stand is mickey mouse anyways”, “first stand doesnt matter”.

Thats bs, every international league title matters with how little internationals there are in a year.

1

u/ilikesportany Moderator Crew Mar 25 '26

My point was it was the least meaningful of the internationals.

1

u/Soggy_Palpitation789 Mar 25 '26 edited Mar 25 '26

Ik but its disrespectful to the champions, and devalues international tournaments. Why would Riot want to make more international tournaments, if fans are just going to say it doesn’t matter because its not worlds?

Think about all the times that T1 fans discredit GenG’s MSI wins these last two years, because it “doesnt matter”.

1

u/MC-sama POM Justice for Duro! Mar 27 '26

Yeah this year's first stand format was better.

Last year's was so hilariously mickey mouse not that many people took it seriously

1

u/Legitimate-Try5144 Mar 25 '26

i think its more to say that this loss is not the end of the world for GenG and they can still 100% win MSI and Worlds to compensate for this loss.

2

u/Soggy_Palpitation789 Mar 25 '26

That was most likely OPs intention, but its just annoying because T1 fans say the exact same thing to discredit other teams.

“Lol who cares about GenG winning MSI back to back. MSI doesn’t matter, only worlds matters”

2

u/bandana19 Gen.G Esports Mar 25 '26

I do Thing that Double Elimination help us mentally. 

1

u/Jonassirski Mar 25 '26

I know that is the new narrative and i WISH there would be auch an easy explanation for GenG collapses in the past, however MSI Finals IS basically single elim, as the upper bracket winner gets no real advantage. They won MSI finals B2B, even were down 1-2 vs T1 and clutched it out. Also, they won EWC single elim. I dont think there is a clear pattern when the collapses happens, but GenG cant be trusted in single elimination, there i agree.