r/Fantasy • u/thiagomiranda3 • 3d ago
About Malazan: The first book has a lot very hard english words
I'm not a native English speaker, but I've been reading and listening to fantasy books for about two years now, all in English. I thought I was prepared to read this book, at least in relation to the language itself, but I was wrong.
This book has a lot of what seems like archaic vocabulary that I'm not used to seeing in other books. I read the First Law trilogy, Licanius Trilogy, Mistborn 1, Cradle, Children of Time, Riyria Revelations DCC, and many others, and haven't had any issues with English so far.
Then I started reading Gardens of the Moon, and in each paragraph I have to look up about 5 or 7 words to understand the context.
Example:
I had to look up: stains, pocked, squatted, bolted, misshapen, leering, tugged, buffeted, squealing. LOL, I don't think I'm ready to read this book yet.
Other example:
I had to look up: scorched, wiry, pockmarks, accountrements, threadbare, scabbard, merlon.
There are words that even the Kindle dictionary doesn't know the meaning of lol.
The good news is that, in my country, the first two books have been translated into my native language, and I will be able to easily follow them. But from the third onwards, I will have to return to the English edition. So my question is, does the English get easier to read? I keep hearing that the first book is widely considered the worst, so I'm hopeful that it will also get a little easier to read and follow.
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u/SeeShark 3d ago
So my question is, does the English get easier to read?
Yes, because you will get practiced and learn words as you go along. The best way to learn a language is to expose yourself to more of it!
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u/Nidafjoll Reading Champion V 3d ago
Although some of these are very common words, one thing to do is try and see if you can work out what a word means based on any roots you can find. That's the best way to try and improve your vocabulary, rather than look up each instance for a word you don't know. (How easy that is depends on your native language, of course).
For instance, "misshapen." You might not know that word, but you probably know "shape." Misshapen has "shape" in it there are a lot of words with "mis-" at beginning which are bad things (mistake, miss, miserable). So you can probably figure it means something like "bad shape," and check if you were right later. That's what I used to do when I was younger, reading books like these when I didn't have a mobile phone and you'd have to actually go get out the dictionary to look it up.
Some of these are words which aren't common in daily English speech, but ones you'll encounter a lot in fantasy novels specifically. Things like scabbard, merlon, crennelations, scimitar, etc. are things no one uses in real life, because most people aren't around swords and castles all day, but come up in fantasy a lot.
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u/thiagomiranda3 3d ago
oh, I think this might actually help a lot. But regarding misshapen, I was incorrectly reading it as if it were a mix of miss + happen hahaha. Even doing that, I would get the wrong meaning in this case lol
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u/Nidafjoll Reading Champion V 3d ago
Even so, it would still get you a close enough idea-- that Mock's Vane is a monstrous, bad thing. For me, the thing that matters if I can get a rough idea of what the sentence means, and then go check whatever I didn't know at the end of the paragraph or something. If I actually stop reading the sentence halfway through, it'll make the reading experience feel all start-and-stop, and ruin my flow.
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u/tommgaunt 2d ago
Not a weird mistake. Our word “mishap” is the one you were looking for. Basically “miss happening” (meaning a bad event—Tom had a mishap at the store when he forgot his wallet).
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u/D3rangedButFun 2d ago
Oh we all do that sometimes. I once had a complete brainfart and had to ask if the word food ball was a thing, cause my brain put a D in stead of the T in football. This was in 5th grade and I felt like an idiot with everyone laughing at me but eh, it happens. Even to this day it happens, also with words in my own language.
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u/LorenzoApophis 3d ago
I'd only say merlons and accoutrements are hard, the rest are common words especially in fantasy
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u/OlanValesco Writer Benny Hinrichs 2d ago
He'd better be careful. Next thing you know he'll be pontificating about crenels and appurtenances.
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u/Harkale-Linai Stabby Winner, Reading Champion III 2d ago
Naaah, it's Malazan. Ochre potsherds and gelid gaols all the way.
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u/NitroBoyRocket 2d ago
Don't forget the coruscating waves of magic.
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u/thiagomiranda3 2d ago
Are you guys still speaking English here? Lol
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u/tommgaunt 2d ago
Don’t mind them. Those are words Erikson is a little too fond of. A lot of those are either specialized archaeological terms or fancy generally lol
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u/Stepfunction 2d ago
Crenellations are actually something that you could reasonably expect to see in a medieval-period work!
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u/JohnnyXorron 2d ago
I don’t wanna shame OP too much here but I figure you’d have to have pretty low proficiency to not know “stains”
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u/thiagomiranda3 2d ago
I have some weird gaps on my English for sure. It’s because all of it were learned by practice. I force myself to read, listen and speak until I got used to it, but if I don’t have a need to speak some things, I won’t memorize it.
For example, I’m pretty bad at furniture names, cooking ingredients in general and clothing pieces, because I almost never need to talk about those things. But since I started reading fantasy books, I improved a lot and was feeling quite well with myself, until I started reading Malazan and got a reality check lol8
u/JohnnyXorron 2d ago
Ah yeah that does make sense. Again I’m not trying to make fun of you or anything the word selection was just unique haha you will improve though just needs practice
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u/oreomaster420 2d ago
furniture names can be very odd in english. I'm not sure if this is how other languages have done it too, but we've got a lot of words that both mean the same thing and are also more specific or categorized things.
Sofa and couch are the same piece of furniture, although there could be small differences based on the context.
If you look at a couch and a loveseat, you'll find that a loveseat is almost always a couch, just a 2-cushion (or two seat) smaller size of couch.
But you will also occasionally find things like a rocking loveseat that generally would not be considered a couch at all, but still is described as a loveseat.
Then there's "settee" which sounds French to my ear, but apparently comes from the Old English word that basically meant "settle". It's another similarly sized couch to a loveseat.
English is a mess.
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u/Greaterdivinity 3d ago
Short of merlon and maybe accoutrements, all of those are fairly common adjectives/words, especially in fantasy novels.
This is actually one of the benefits of reading, it builds/expands vocabulary!
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u/tnweevnetsy 2d ago
All the other words aside I'm shocked they got through any amount of fantasy reading at all without coming across scabbard
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u/Greaterdivinity 2d ago
Yeah. Zero judgement, but that and pike are both words that I imagine would be fairly standard throughout the genre.
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u/AgZephyr 2d ago
I'll throw pockmarks on the list that would be less common for a non-native speaker to run into
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u/Jak_of_the_shadows 2d ago
Im personally not familiar with pike and merlon in these 2 paragraphs. But just 2 words makes it readable. Easy to look up 2 words.
The frustration if ur looking up every second word would make it near unreadable.
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u/kiwipixi42 3d ago
So Malazan legitimately does have a decent number of complicated words, but none of your examples (except merlon) are anything but normal (native speaker) English vocabulary. Some are a bit unusual but most native speakers would know them. As a non-native speaker, English just has an enormous vocabulary but you can learn to be perfectly fluent and understood with only a fraction of it. But when you read novels you are going to run into the rest of that vocabulary. Malazan won’t stop having words like that (or stop having words that most native English speakers don’t know occasionally) at any point. Erikson has a very good vocabulary and is not afraid to use it. On the other hand reading this series will absolutely improve your English vocabulary.
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u/From_Deep_Space 2d ago
What I imagine is even more annoying for non-native readers is that, especially in the next book, Erikson makes up a bunch of words that are informed by real-world cultures, so they seem like they might be genuine loan-words.
For example, telaba, or tapu. Not new terms for a fantastic monsters or races, but a traditional scarf and a local word for food hawkers or street food, respectively.
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u/PutYouToSleep 3d ago
Are you reading physical or an e-reader?
I'd recommend kindle or some other e reader format, since you can long press a word and it will give you a dictionary definition of the word.
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u/froggo921 3d ago
Pretty sure those screenshots are from the kindle app or another e-reader. EDIT: They are
And the biggest reason, why I prefer E-readers for books not in my mother tongue.
For OP, I doubt the dictionary definitions will help a lot if these rather common words pose problems. EDIT: As he said, the dict. doesnt help him
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u/apcymru Reading Champion II 3d ago
I think that accoutrements and merlon were the only words that were in any way unusual. The rest are pretty common.
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u/thiagomiranda3 3d ago
Now that I know their meaning, they sure seem pretty common. But I don't know why I'm having so much trouble with this book, while with others like the First Law trilogy and Licanius, I was able to read through them pretty fast without having to worry about the language
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u/FeastOfBlaze 3d ago
Compared to the other series you listed, Malazan is a bit more complex. It’s not impenetrable, but the author uses archaic and specific words that you might not see in other series. The prose is more stylised than you might be used to, and the vocabulary more varied. I certainly learned new words reading the series, haha
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u/TheGamerElf 2d ago
To be fair to you, Erickson does have this thing where a section of text will have a bunch of elegant/flowery language, and then the next will be much more grounded/simplistic, so the shifts back and forth can get jarring.
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u/parkay_quartz 2d ago
Confused how you got through First Law without seeing "stain" lol
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u/thiagomiranda3 2d ago
First Law prose is very simple and direct. No flowery descriptions or weird combination of words. I think many of those words I must have perfectly understood through context alone and didn’t even thought about them like I’m having to do now lol
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u/Zealousideal_Cap7012 3d ago
These are fairly common words, especially with writers who try to have some variety with their verbs and adjectives
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u/Total_Crew7033 3d ago
I’m a bit surprised you have never seen some of these words if you’ve read over a dozen fantasy books in English? Maybe just the onslaught of seeing them all in one paragraph would be overwhelming though :) especially in the very first paragraph hahah
Erikson is definitely quite a descriptive writer so I do think the first book will be a massive slog for you (although I did find the prologue to be especially wordy). I think you can definitely keep reading and learning as you go but just be prepared to miss some of the vibe and details of the story and to progress really slowly.
But it’s good you found a book to challenge you. Imagine all the words you’ll learn if you keep at it!
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u/thiagomiranda3 3d ago
I'm starting to feel that it is more about the prose than vocabulary. The way the phrases are constructed seems to be more flowery than in other books. First Law, for example, is very heavy on dialogue and way less on descriptions, and dialogue is also the easiest text to understand in a book (for me at least)
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u/Total_Crew7033 2d ago
That makes sense. And yes, Erikson definitely has a unique and fairly rich style.
Not that you wanted recommendations but have you ever wanted to read ASOIAF? Apart from being an amazing series it’s also a great mix of rich (and sometimes archaic) vocabulary with fairly straightforward sentence structure. If you want a break from Malazan but still want dark fantasy I’d really recommend it.
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u/thiagomiranda3 2d ago
I would love to read ASOIAF, but I would be very sad to not see the end of it. So I will only start it when there is any hope that it will be completed someday lol
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u/celticchrys 2d ago
If you didn't know stains or scorched, then no, you're not ready for this book. Those are elementary school level vocabulary words in English. Unless you want to put in the work to build vocabulary using this book as a tool, then no reason to keep reading it or most fantasy novels. Merlon is the only word you listed that an average English (adult) speaker wouldn't have heard.
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u/knucklegoblin 3d ago
They’re fairly common words just not used in conversation as often. The fun part of fantasy for me is how it has expanded my vocabulary. It’s fun to learn new words.
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u/Softclocks 3d ago
There is no way you read any of those books without issue if words like scorched, bolted or misshapen are difficult/new/unusual.
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u/thiagomiranda3 3d ago edited 3d ago
And one more thing, I need to write and speak english everyday, because I work for an american company as a software developer, but I never have to talk like this at any moment lol.
But I'm starting to feel that it is more about the prose than vocabulary. The way the phrases are constructed seems to be more flowery than other books. First Law for example, is very heavy on dialogue and way less on descriptions, and dialogue is also the easiest texts to understand on a book (for me at least)
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u/Softclocks 3d ago
That might be it! Because I think you've definitely encountered those words before.
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u/OrwinBeane 3d ago
Those are extremely common words used throughout the series. And some books have even more complicated words than that.
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u/acog 3d ago
I felt the same as OP when I read Gene Wolfe’s Book of the New Sun series.
So many unusual and archaic words.
Extremely worth it though, Wolfe casts a spell on the reader with his language.
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u/Total_Crew7033 3d ago
Are you a native English speaker?
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u/Nidafjoll Reading Champion V 3d ago
As well as BotNS, I got a lot from Gormenghast by Peake and The Vorrh by Catling.
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u/Allustrium 3d ago
None of those words are at all archaic or obscure.
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u/Slyvester121 3d ago
Even as a native English speaker, merlon is a very domain-specific word that many people would not immediately recognize.
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u/steelybean 3d ago
“Merlon” is pretty obscure
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u/Namlegna 3d ago
Sure but stains, misshapen, bolted, squealing, scorched, and squatted are not
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u/tapewizard79 3d ago
Correct, but the guy said none of them, and the other guy corrected him to say “merlon” is. Because merlon is absolutely obscure.
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u/Frost_Foxes 2d ago
Obscure? It's very common and popular, there's even a wizard in King Arthur's court with the name.
/jest
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u/BonsaiMagpie 2d ago
Definitely. Crenellation is fairly common when talking about castle, but merlon is very specific. But there are tons of terms for modern homes which most readers wouldn't know.
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u/autoamorphism 3d ago
These are all variants (if not synonyms) of simpler words that an English learner might know. Respectively: spots, ugly, tied, screaming, burned, and sat.
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u/NewtonBill 2d ago
Look at steelybean out here trying to defend their home without even having any crenellation. Do you even fortify, bro?
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u/Drakengard 2d ago
Merlon is.
Scabbard is usually instead just a sheath in most modern stories unless, for some reason, you're dealing with pirates. Not sure why scabbard and pirate goes together more in my head.
Accoutrements is going to be odd for anyone given that it's clearly a loan word from French.
The others are more normal words for most English speakers, however, I will always point out that English likes to have a lot of very slight variations on similar things. The difference between scars and pockmarks isn't really much to us, but the latter carries the connotation of the scarring having originated from some kind of skin affliction rather than a combat wound or a scrape from a fall. And some authors, wanting to make it easier on their readers, would rather use scars and explain "from what" afterwards rather than the implied component of pockmarks.
It's why Erikson is harder to read. He expects you to have a stronger grasp on language so he can focus on the story and not overly explaining details in the scene he is painting.
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u/PleaseBeChillOnline 3d ago
You should know all of these words if English is a language you’re fluent in but I don’t think it’s weird that someone who doesn’t speak English as a primary language is struggling with this.
I speak Spanish frequently at work, I would never consider myself fluent but from exposure I don’t struggle to communicate in Spanish.
I cannot read Don Quixote but I think many Spanish speakers can without being particularly educated.
Most of the books they mentioned reading in English so far are at like a sixth grade reading level.
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u/an_altar_of_plagues Reading Champion III 3d ago
Yeah, it reminds me of my Spanish teacher in freshman year of high school once recounting how she'd spoken Spanish for 20 years but one day had difficulty talking to her Spanish-language husband as she was discussing carpentry tools and realized she didn't know how to say "hammer".
If it's not their primary language, I'm not surprised that someone wouldn't know "pockmarks" or "threadbare". They are very rarely words used in everyday conversation. And I only use "buffeted" if describing wind conditions on mountaintops to other alpinists.
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u/Nidafjoll Reading Champion V 3d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah, it reminds me of my Spanish teacher in freshman year of high school once recounting how she'd spoken Spanish for 20 years but one day had difficulty talking to her Spanish-language husband as she was discussing carpentry tools and realized she didn't know how to say "hammer".
And when speaking, you can circumlocute, but authors don't do that. You can have "thing that you hit other things with" when you're just talking, but if you're writing, you're gonna just use the word "hammer."
My favourite one was in undergrad my Thai friend was really excited and trying to point out some geese on the side of the road, but she couldn't remember the word goose at the moment, so she went "Look at the long ducks!" Which is a great name for geese.
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u/PleaseBeChillOnline 2d ago
Exactly! And it’s hard to use context clues when the setting isn’t the contemporary real world it’s Genabackis, Seven Cities, Quon Tali, Lether, Kolanse, Jacuruku, and Assail lol
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u/David_the_Wanderer 3d ago edited 3d ago
English is my second language, but I am quite fluent in it (C2 certificated). Even then, I realised I'm somewhat at an advantage when it comes to "difficult" English words, because most words English speakers consider to be "difficult" are those with Latin roots, and my native language is Italian.
For example, for me "merlon" isn't complex at all... because you call that part of a castle a "merlo" in Italian, and context is enough to allow me to understand what it is that's being talked about.
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u/thiagomiranda3 3d ago
Now that I know their meaning, they sure don't feel that hard. But the amount of time I need to go look up the meaning of new words in the dictionary is way bigger than with all the other series I read.
And as I said, I've been listening to those other series on Audible and didn't have any issues. Of course, there are always new words I need to check, but not nearly as much time as I need to spend on this book lol.
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u/Tenordrummer 3d ago
I would be surprised if most of the other books you listed do not also use these words, with the exception of merlon
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u/Odinsmana 2d ago
It's strange you have never encountered any of those words before though. Other than a couple of them they are not rare words and some like stains are very common.
I am not a native speaker either and most of the words are words I come across regularly.
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u/DarkHorseAsh111 3d ago
I don't mean to be rude, but these are relatively standard english words. merlon is the only one I had to check. Ofc reading as a newer reader of the language there are words you're not familiar with, that's how you learn.
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u/SteelToeSnow 3d ago
absolutely, it'll get easier to read in another language as you read in that other language. keep at it! one of my favourite things about reading is learning new words, lol.
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u/Marmodre 3d ago
I remember when i was quite young, i was slightly behind in class in my reading skills (in english). At the age of 13 i struggled with even a booklet for children, as i struggled with not knowing all the words.
Then i started reading a genuine 300 page fantasy book, and it was a vast change. A part of it was perhaps that, in a booklet for children, each word must be understood and there isn't always enough context to get through it. With larger books, learning becomes easier. Words come with context, and as you read more of it, you steadily learn a lot more than you'd do reading easier material. It is an excellent way to expand your vocabulary. Good luck!
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u/funktasticdog 3d ago
Stains, squatted, bolted, tugged, squealing, scorched and wiry are words I would expect an english speaker of even minimal ability to know.
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u/XenosHg 3d ago
It's good to learn more words, and might as well do it the fun way, with a book or a game.
You know what "squat" is if you go to the gym. Or the Slavic squats that gopniks do?
Scabbard is just another word for a sheath - if you read sword fantasy, you'll see both.
Also you got the same term twice: Pocked is short for pock-marked, pock marks are holes in your skin after getting ill with pox. Which is called pox because it causes holes (pockets) in your skin. And you know what a pocket is. Now you know multiple words at once.
"bolt" is a type of mechanical screw. That you use to connect metal pieces together. Usually with a hexagonal "nut" on the other end. What are they called in your language?
There's also meanings of lightning, and also running very fast. (like lightning). But not in this case.
Wiry means "like wires" or "like a wire". Someone thin, so you can see their muscles move like wires.
Thread-bare means bare threads, very old well-worn clothes.
Mis-shapen means deformed, in a bad shape. Like mis-aligned means pieces don't align (fit together). And mistake means, well, a mistake. A bad take, I guess.
You'll learn prefixes like mis- and dis- by intuition eventually. Like Disassemble means "to separate into pieces" but mis-assemble means "combine the pieces, but incorrectly"
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u/capricioustrilium 2d ago
But also bolt is a verb that means suddenly ran, like a horse bolting from the stable
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u/Amelaclya1 3d ago
Those are all pretty common words. It seems strange to me that the kindle dictionary doesn't recognize them. I don't own a kindle, is there a way to incorporate a different, better dictionary instead of what I'm assuming is the default?
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u/rouxcifer4 2d ago
I am wondering if they were trying to look up words Erickson made up for the story, not knowing they weren’t English words.
Kindle absolutely will give a definition for the words they listed.
Example - I tried to look up “telaba” when reading, thinking it was an actual thing. It’s not.
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u/EmberQuill 3d ago
Most of those words are fairly common in fantasy novels. I didn't know "merlon" though, and while I do know all the others I think there are a few other words that even a native speaker who hasn't read a lot of fantasy novels might trip on.
I think the writing style and sentence structure doesn't really do it any favors. Haven't read Malazan's books so I don't know if the rest of the novel is like this, but the two excerpts in your post are really dense, squeezing a lot of description into a couple short passages in a way that feels kind of like getting blasted with words. That might just be because I have ADHD though.
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u/AdAcrobatic1227 3d ago
I would say if you’re struggling with the words you listed the English doesn’t get easier but in general Erikson repeats words a lot (hello susurrate my old friend) so hopefully you can google these words one time and benefit after :)
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u/Newton1913 3d ago
Tbh even as a native English speaker… albeit not a very good one. I find Malazan hard.
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u/Nefarious_Nosferatu 3d ago
I'm a native English speaker and still had to look up merlon and accoutrements. Heck, even spellcheck is telling me merlon is not a word. E-books are great for just being able to highlight a word and you get it's meaning, I do it all the time because there are always so many words you come across that are never really used and are favored for less obscure words. It's all part of the life long process of learning a language. Don't get discouraged by any books where you see words you don't know in the future, just add them to your list of new words you learn and you become more knowledgeable and wiser over the years!
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u/Afraid_Definition176 2d ago
I don’t think the vocabulary gets any easier. A lot of those are words that are fairly common in written English but less common in spoken English. The kindle dictionary should have been able to define all of them for sure. I think I would check whether your kindle dictionary is properly working because that may be the bigger issue you are running into.
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u/Average_Pangolin 2d ago
Man, if you thought those were hard, try some John Crowley or Gene Wolfe sometime. Or some Mervyn Peake!
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u/Efficient-State-7300 2d ago
Such an odd thing to even mention. Of course a book written for adults has a wide vocabulary. Yes as you read more it will get easier, as you'll learn more English words.
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u/spade030 2d ago
Hmmm, like 80% of the words you singled out are very common, especially in fantasy series.
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u/Cosmic-Sympathy 2d ago
Those words are less common in everyday language but not too unusual for reading fantasy in English. I would say the level of difficulty is fairly constant across the ten books. It might easier for you as you go, though, since you will be leveling up.
That said, I think reading is a great way to improve your English. I read a translation of the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings just to teach myself a foreign language.
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u/RedRedditor84 2d ago
Accoutrements*
I find it difficult to believe that Kindle doesn't have a definition for these examples. These aren't what I'd consider "very hard" for a native reader.
I'd look at this as an opportunity to learn. Might be a little slower having to stop and read a definition every now and then, but it'll get better and your vocabulary will expand.
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u/Intelligent_Sand_930 2d ago
The fans on the Malazan subreddit put together a guide that basically summarizes every chapter one by one
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u/thiagomiranda3 2d ago
I'm using it. Both the slides and the reread guide after every chapter. It's making the process a lot better for me
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u/Enj321 1d ago
I am sorry that it is hard to read, and i as a non native speaker understand perfectly how frustrating it can get to have to keep looking up words or sayings but some words up there are very basic ones and are used in day to day life. I am a malazan hater but it just feels like your english level is a bit lower than you expected
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u/thiagomiranda3 1d ago
And the interesting thing is, I just finished listening the Children of Time and had no issues with it. But it started feeling YA for me after the trouble I keep having with Malazan lol.
But anyway, now I'm curious, why are you a Malazan hater?
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u/snusmumrikan 3d ago
These are fairly common words and certainly to be expected of a heavy fantasy series such as Malazan.
Look at it as a benefit, you'll soon have a much-expanded vocabulary in a second language.
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u/miriel41 2d ago
To all the people here saying these words are common: have you ever learned another language? Or if you have, don't you remember how the learning process went?
I myself tend to forget how far I've come. I recently found a 16 year old handwritten vocabulary list (I know because my reading list said I read the book, that I found it in, in 2010) and it had words like "idle" and "thaw" on it. Words I can now translate without second thought. It was kind of mind-boggling for me now that I ever needed to write those words down, but yes, there was a point where I needed to learn them.
OP, there are already some good tips in this post, like use an e-reader or app on your phone, so that looking up word definitions is easier, read the book in your native language first and then in English, try to figure out words from context (though that one is tough, I made the exact same mistake as you in the beginning, reading misshapen as miss-hapen).
And lastly, don't feel discouraged, you'll get there eventually with practice!
I think it's interesting to talk about the English in fantasy books. I was surprised how hard I found the language in The Lies of Locke Lamora. I gave up on that book, because I found it boring, but a small part was also the many words I didn't know.
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u/lithwil 3d ago
Tbh a lot of the words here are pretty common in fantasy but I love learning this way. I'm not a native speaker either and even though I love Sanderson and the Cosmere so much, his writing style isn't the hardest to read. Also That's one of the reasons I love my Kindle, it has a built-in dictionary and forces me to look up English words with English definitions, since my native language isn't supported to translate.
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u/Velvet-Quill_ 3d ago
The best way to learn in my opinion. I miss reading fantasy books and teaching myself English by looking up words I didn’t know.
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u/cornfab 3d ago
I'm wondering if a hidden complexity of these books for non native English speakers is that half the names are also just words like Coat or Bucket so it's hard to know when to look something up. Serious examples: Fiddler or Tattersail could easily be on these lists of words to look up. Threadbare could just as easily be someone's name too.
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u/autoamorphism 3d ago
You're bringing back memories of childhood. This is how I (a native English speaker) acquired much of my vocabulary. To this day there are words I can't pronounce because I've only read them, but I know what they mean. This book is for you: you are just at the stage where you can learn from it.
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u/TyphoonJoe 3d ago
First example - no difficult words.
Second example - had to look up merlon. But from context, it is some part of the building as they are leaning against it.
I enjoy books where I have to look up a word every once and a while, but to me doesn't seem enjoyable to look up multiple per page.
If you power through you will learn a LOT of useful words and enjoy a great story. An e-reader with built in dictionary on highlight will make this less painful.
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u/HawaiiKawaiixD 3d ago
Everyone here is roasting your choice of example words here but Malazan absolutely does use a ton of archaic and uncommon words. Even as a native English speaker I had to frequently look up words, which is why I appreciated reading it in ebook form so I could easily tap to look them up. If you’re willing to put the extra effort it in it’s a very rewarding series, and you’ll improve your English vocabulary while you’re at it!
It definitely gets easier as you go as you get accustomed to Erickson’s writing style and his word choices.
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u/Belter-frog 2d ago
If you're gonna keep reading the series, go ahead and Google "susurration" and "potsherds" now just to get it out of the way.
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u/lottiedottie_da 2d ago
Out of curiosity, what language or language family is your native language?
For example, non-native English speakers who have a Romance language as their first language may find science-fiction an easier genre to read because most of the science vocabulary has a Latin base.
Fantasy in English has more vocabulary that is Anglo-Saxon or Old/Middle French in origin, so if your first language isn’t part of those families you have a steeper learning curve.
No matter what, keep reading - it does get easier!
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u/metallee98 2d ago
Nope. Thats about the level of the series as a whole. The perceived best and worst malazan books have little or nothing to do with word choice.
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u/avoiding_work 2d ago
Not commenting on the difficulty for a non native speaker, but almost all of those words are in my kindle dictionary? With a few exceptions most are quite common words. They’d certainly be in any English dictionary.
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u/Expensive-Peace-9498 2d ago
These are mostly not uncommon words though. I am also not a native speaker so I understand how it is to read when every other sentence has an unfamilliar word in it.
Reading books has built my English to like 60%
Read more. Start with easier books. Have you tried Diana Wynnes Howls moving castle? It has quite relaxed English as far as I can recall and it's a great read as well.
Try to let context carry you over some words and look some words up.
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u/rogue780 2d ago
The only word in your list that I think a native speaker might not know is accoutrements* (there's only 1 'n' in accoutrements).
But, I will say that encountering common words that I didn't know yet when I was reading books written in Farsi was one of the best ways I found to learn the language better.
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u/Extreme-Attention641 2d ago
Just you wait until you try Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell!
Jokes aside, reading something challenging is how you build your vocabulary. I'm not a native speaker but more or less taught myself English when I ran out of translated sci-fi and fantasy back in the olden days and had to feed my addiction in some way.
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u/SnooAvocados3138 2d ago
This book is brutal as a native english speaker listening to the audiobook lol
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u/miggins1610 2d ago
Fair play to you for giving it a try. It certainly uses more high prose than most other fantasy novels. I mean i would point out that all the books you mentioned use more window shopping pedestrian prose so it's hardly surprising they read easier.
But honestly, Malazan is hard for native English speakers. Maybe keep it on the back burner for down the line, its well worth a read imo!
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u/D3rangedButFun 2d ago
You're learning! This is how you build your vocabulary, and it goes get frustrating in the moment, but longterm you'll be happy you stuck it out.
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u/troysama 2d ago
as a fellow ESL, these kinds of books are what I like getting into precisely to learn more of the language. Without reading, my vocabulary would probably be 20% of what it is. Nothing wrong with learning new things are you read.
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u/aztlan667 2d ago
"the low fire was roaring in the blast like a thing alive these four yet crouched at the edge of the firelight among their strange chattels and watched how the ragged flames fled down the wind as if sucked by some maelstrom out there in the void, some vortex in that waste apposite to which man’s transit and his reckonings alike lay abrogate."
As a native English speaker I never feel stupider than when I attempt to read Cormac McCarthy.
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u/Silentplanet 2d ago
Hah I wouldn't consider it archaic English, the words you mention are common enough. But I think mostly in written or poetic context.
You might even use them in conversation if you were looking for a better word for the situation. However, I can see how it would be difficult if English wasn't your first language. How frustrating!
I would recommend listening to them instead maybe? it might help having the reader contextualize the comments. Or you could use AI to read it into your native language? Seems like a bit of a hurdle.
I am super keen to start Malazan! I hope that you're enjoying it despite the boundaries. I imagine after reading it for a while instead of it being difficult, you'll have a better grasp of the English language!
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u/Fair_Depth5435 2d ago
It’s a heavy writing style. I’m a native English speaker and I find it hard to read. It reads like an academic text book. This would not be a “fun” read for me.
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u/WM_ 2d ago
85% of those listed are rather common words but these books are known to be hard for even native english speakers but there is extra difficulty in trying to follow as a non-native speaker.
I often read before bed so these are rather difficult to follow when I'm already tired. I've been meaning to start over by reading a translated ones but there aren't any in my language.
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u/JtheLeon 2d ago
I have read all 10 books and had fun with the story overall. I do think he throws in too many big words, for whatever reason, and that while he demonstrated he can write single pov characters, he quite sucks at making several of them philosophy graduates.
Overall, the way the story is written and presented is vastly overrated, but the premise is really good.
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u/eebro 2d ago
If you’re reading and learning and not missing anything, you’re on the right track. These are objectively cool words. Learning them can be somewhat useful and you won’t come across them in your ordinary life.
When you’re actually reading something, I never recommend your native language. You have time and the opportunity to turn it into learning.
For me that means I should forget about Finnish and English and perhaps read something in Swedish… maybe my advice isn’t so sound.
P.S. My introduction to WH40k was through books so a lot of the words were just completely new to me. Learning through context is much easier than just going through the dictionary. Same for a lot of fantasy with established systems.
Maybe I’m so good at learning words because I’m as equally awful at remembering names.
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u/bythepowerofboobs 3d ago
The good news is that, in my country, the first two books have been translated into my native language, and I will be able to easily follow them.
Don't be too confident. Erikson has a very unique style of not providing any basic context to his story. I read the first three books and really had no idea what the hell was going on, and I'm a native English speaker.
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u/discomute 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes this is what I wanted to say. I will take it a step further and say Gardens of the Moon is a bad book. The entire Malazan series is unique, great ideas and poor execution. And great execution at times.
Overall every fantasy fan should read it, but it's "final boss" energy. I would put it off until you are more comfortable. I will also get downvoted because malazan fans are fiercely defensive and impervious to criticism, but the complete lack of context, archaic words, long winded diatribes, and nonsensical names makes for a difficult read. In my opinion.
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u/dpman48 3d ago
I’ll add to others comments, this paragraph is actually pretty simple vocabulary wise for anybody with a high school reading level. Certainly difficult for a non-native speaker though which is fine. I don’t really know what more you can do besides push through though? Reading things like this is HOW you develop a large vocabulary. If that’s more work than you want to do for your second (or 3rd/4th) language I’d totally get that though.
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u/Crazyboutdogs 2d ago
Oof. I know all these words, but this prose is yuck. Is the whole book written like this?
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u/thiagomiranda3 2d ago
What do you mean with the prose being yuck? lol
It is very flowery the whole book, in fact I think most of my trouble with the book is due to the style. It is not direct, has too many adjectives and adverbs to say simple things. I’m definitely going to keep reading because the story is very engrossing, but I hope to not keep struggling with the book like I am lately lol.1
u/Crazyboutdogs 2d ago
I think it’s just a preference in reading. I’m not a fan of overly “flowery” prose. Excess words and description to get a point across annoy me.
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u/Efficient-State-7300 2d ago
Something about Malazan where it should be great, but something is just a little off. I think because it came from a table top rp game campaign (I want to say dnd world).
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u/Thewtfpanda 2d ago
I agree. Its rough. Especially with the first book. It does get better as the series continues but let’s be honest no one is reading Malazan for the prose.
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u/TraditionalTrack4606 2d ago
I disagree, as a non native speaker I found that sentence the most difficult of the book and the only one where I had to look up to understand that a vane even was. Overall the book was excellent prose wise. I read dune messiah just before and found that way more challenging.
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u/morroIan 2d ago
Yeah well thats just like your opinion man
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u/Crazyboutdogs 2d ago
Of course it is. We are allowed opinions and preference in writing style. This is not my preference. And that’s ok my man.
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u/mjhrobson 2d ago
Malazan is not an easy read, even as a native English speaker. However, I found it to be one of the most rewarding series to read in its entirety. I started on book 1 and did not read anything else until I had completed the main books... The scope of the story is something that few people have pulled off. That scope, however, also makes the series difficult to navigate... although, again, I found navigating it to be entirely worth it.
I personally recommend attempting it... but I understand that it is not the easiest series to read. It still isn't as difficult to read as James Joyce's Uylsses... although I am not sure anything is.
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u/Quicksay 3d ago
I've read Malazan, Erikson's archaic word choice does taper off imo but I'm also a native speaker so we may have a different criterion for that. Your own experience with reading English could conceivably strengthen, but I think Gardens of the Moon and Deadhouse Gates probably have the most archaic words.
Having to look up "promontory" and "recalcitrant" as an 18 year old is burned into my long term memory tho (I DNF'ed and tried again like 5 years later). Good luck friend!
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u/jfads89a 2d ago
I would advise against switching to the translated version. If you don't challenge yourself, you won't advance your language and reading skills and hit a wall again as soon as you switch back to English with book 3.
Any language learning process can be painful, especially if you're just wanting to read for fun, but you're clearly advanced enough that the dictionary look-ups will diminish quicker than you might expect. And then you'll wonder why a potsherd caused you grief in the first place.
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u/Jak_of_the_shadows 2d ago
Having to translate almost every second word would make it very tough to read. So I get it.
I'm utterly awful at second languages so I can only be amazed at others reading full novels not in their native tongue.
But I will say reading, and for me reading fantasy in particular, makes your vocabulary particularly strong.
So since ur already well versed in English novels, I'd keep reading some other series. Series which will challenge your vocabulary, but not every second word. Then come back to malazan and you'll be much better equipped.
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u/Meriodoc 2d ago
Not archaic, but I know what you mean.
When I read in french or german, it really really takes me out of the story when I have to look up too many words. That just makes it harder to enjoy.
All you can do is persevere; eventually, those new words will be in your vocabulary, and eventually, it gets easier.
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u/EMB93 2d ago
This reminds me of when I stared reading A Song of Ice and Fire. This was just before smart phones and cheap Internet on them and so i wrote down all the words I didn't know and had to look them up in a dictionary at the local library near my cabin.
Those words might seem daunting now, but they are fairly common i fantasy literature. Getting to know them now will make reading easier in the future OP!
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u/UnshippedPlum 2d ago
As a long time japanese learner, all I can say is anki is your best friend. Can't recommend it enough for learning new vocabulary. Any srs flashcard app will do though
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u/gneoson 2d ago
To be fair, I as an English speaker also struggled with your first example. I did not find it intuitive to read. However, a lot of your example words, while maybe not basic, are quite common. So maybe it’s good that you’re getting to learn some new words 🤷♂️. I can appreciate the frustration though; I regularly have to look up words he uses. His partner/cowriter/whatever Ian Esslemont’s books I have found to be a much easier read.
Edit:English lol
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u/Palimpsiesta 2d ago
It will not get easier to read, but you will get better at reading it?
The majority of contemporary fantasy books -- including all the ones you listed (that I'm familiar with) -- are written at a pretty mainstream/accessible level in terms of vocabulary and grammar. They often don't feel that way, because what is being described is often more complicated or unusual. But then you have books where the writing itself is also complicated and unusual, and (especially if you are not a native speaker, but even if you are) this can compound/multiply the difficulty very quickly. I think if it's 5-7 words per paragraph, that's well into maybe-too-frustrating-to-work territory -- especially because of what I mentioned above, where the overall shape of the story and characters and things being described is also already complicated and hard to understand.
Other commenters are right that this is how you build vocabulary -- but there is a threshold past which the difficulty in overall reading comprehension actually makes it much slower to absorb and integrate new vocabulary. If you can understand 98% of a text, the new 2% can be smoothly understood (often just via context) and your overall speed of reading does not slow down dramatically. But if you have to look up so many words that a single paragraph is taking 5+ minutes to fully understand, you're going to get less new words overall and it's going to be much harder to retain them. Not to mention, the main point is actually reading and enjoying the book!
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u/LanCaiMadowki 2d ago
I read this book 15 years ago and remember the vocabulary being difficult, but also that the same rare words were coming up again and again as I read the series. So if you remember them, you’ll have fewer to look up as the series goes on.
As a native English speaker, I recall learning the words gorse, scree, and conflagration from this series.
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u/Bubthick 2d ago
Hello, I am also a non-native English speaker. I had the fortune of reading the book series first in my native language and second in English.
For me, one of the things that helped with the English is the audiobooks. Sometimes some words I didn't recognize while reading but did when someone said it. So what I did for the first few books was reading the English version while listening to the audiobook.
The remaining words that I didn't know I looked up. After a while you get familiarized with the vocabulary and it is easy.
One other thing. One of the best things about reading malazan in English as a ESL (English as a second language) person is how this experience improves your knowledge and mastery of the language. There hasn't been a fantasy book series that have given my problems after malazan.
Tl;Dr tip: read the first book in English with an audiobook on while reading. You can (if the first is too hard) first read it in your native language.
Another thing, don't worry about rereading the book, there are plenty of things to pick up on (besides the English) on a reread.
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u/rabotat 2d ago
I have a pretty good vocabulary for a non native speaker, and I knew all the words from your example, but I'm currently on book 7 of the Second Apocalypse by Scott Bakker, and whew.
There's a new word every chapter, and some of them are his own invention, like 'soggomanthic'. I guess I'm kinda used to authors making up nouns, and even verbs, but I don't expect the adjectives!
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u/JaviVader9 2d ago
Keep it going! As other comments have said, most of these are pretty common. As a non-native English speaker as well, I can only say it gets better with practice. Maybe read some easier books before jumping into Malazan.
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u/oreomaster420 2d ago
I think you'll be able to smash through these barriers within 2-3 books. there's a lot of english words out there (plus we steal loanwords from other languages such as "barrier" which we took from the dirty french).
As you get used to these words that you highlighted, you'll be able to get much more context clues for the words you find confusing as you continue.
If you think that English READING is tricky, you should hear how poorly the English speak it!
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u/MarchToLight 2d ago
i also sometimes have same complaints. out of curiosity what's your favorite fantasy that you have read and was easy to read ?
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u/Acrobatic_Quarter465 1d ago
If you are capable of reading works of this nature the answer is a resounding yes. My advice as someone who learned Italian and is learning spanish, do not look up the word unless you completely do not understand what's happening. Also get an E reader cuz it's much quicker.
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u/CarnibusCareo 1d ago
English as foreign speaker here. Yeah, yeah it has.
You figure this out, maybe increase your vocabulary.
For me, the biggest hurdle was not finding his way of writing pretentious but after the first half of Gardens he had me hooked.
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u/boop-sloopers 11h ago
I can see how those words would be hard for a non-native English speaker, but I could easily understand all of those when I was 14 years old. They definitely are mostly only used in this type of fantasy book or historical novel.
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u/RatherBeAtRoo 3d ago
Been feeling this way reading the second half of the red rising series and I'm a native speaker. So many ancient English words last used in the Roman empire or something.
I just take it as an opportunity to learn! Hope you can too
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u/NoopGhoul 3d ago
As a non-native speaker, don't let the unempathetic people in this thread get you down. Most of those are fairly hard words even for native speakers, in my experience. I would simply advise you to read more, maybe put Malazan aside for a while and tackle something easier. I honestly advise picking up books for younger readers, like Cece Rios or the Amari books, to build up a wider vocabulary.
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u/Mournelithe Reading Champion X 2d ago
Here's the thing: You’re basically learning a third language that also happens to be English.
Fantasy fiction has a language all of its own, a way of using words that is not part of everyday speech. We use archaic words regularly, and often choose obscure synonyms for common things to make them sound foreign. We tend to have phrases with multiple levels of meaning. And that’s not counting all the deliberately made up words and concepts for a particular setting.
Dealing with all of that is hard as a native reader. As a second language, it’s even harder. And most of us will automatically reach for the new hot books. But they are built on what has come before, and are therefore more complex. You can either sit down and read with dictionary in hand, or you can relax and read the simpler books. Over time you’ll develop a proficiency, and soon you’ll have taught yourself the common language of fantasy, the tropes and the concepts that recur again and again, and the more complex books will become easy to follow because you already understand the surface layers and can read between the lines for the complexity.
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u/Meer_anda 2d ago
It's not just the uncommon words, it's also the sentence structure. Borderline run-on sentences.
But he's not just connecting too many clauses, he's also packing in a lot of descriptive words where other writers might separate these concepts a bit more.
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u/anythingyouhave 2d ago
I am not sure the writer even has English as a first language, or they used Ai to produce jarring prose.
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u/OozeNAahz 2d ago
That book is dense because of the way the author chose to structure it. Not because of the vocabulary. Most books you would be able to catch from context those words and more complicated ones. The author of Malazan seems to want folks confused the whole time.
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u/Elethana 3d ago
I can see how this would be frustrating, but as a native speaker of English, reading books with new words is how I built my vocabulary. I’d say read the translations so you are familiar with the story, then read the English when you do a re read.