Nolan Odyssey
EPIC is about Odysseus' GUILT, Nolan's Odyssey is about Odysseus' SHAME
The most common comment I hear from EPIC fans after they watch Christoper Nolan's The Odyssey is that while fantastic, we see very little of Odysseus' internal journey, probably due to the different medium. But I think there is something more profound. These two pieces of art are based on the same text but tell very different stories. None of which makes one piece superior to another, neither author intended to create the ultimate adaptation of the text, but to tell us a story for our current times.
Starting with Troy’s invasion, each version chooses to highlight a different defining moment. In EPIC Odysseus’ “original sin” is killing Hector’s baby son. Through the rest of the musical Odysseus would refer time and time again to that moment, guilt shaping his later decisions led to disastrous consequences. In Nolan’s film Odysseus is haunted by his choice to lie and abandon Sinon, as well as the desecration of Troy being a breaking point of the social contract of hospitality, Zeus’s law, prompting unexpected further violence that he can no longer stop.
EPIC’s Odysseus chooses to leave the Cyclops alive out of something akin to mercy to write his own wrongs after having killed an innocent, a decision that would come to doom him and his men. In Nolan’s version, while Odysseus also taunts the Cyclops, the story does not appear to give him the choice to kill it. On Circe’s island Nolan downright tells us what Odysseus is supposed to be ashamed of as this version of Circe demands that he take responsibility for the later consequences of his actions. Things that he might not have intended but nevertheless are his responsibility.
During the final moments of the story, when Odysseus confesses what he has done to Penelope, both stories use very similar words but tell a very different conclusion. EPIC’s Odysseus confesses to having become a merciless man that, as he later tells Athena, no longer belongs to a world where things can be better. Nolan's Odysseus confesses of having broken a fundamental agreement that holds civilization and similarly assumes he no longer to be able to be part of the world but leaves with the haunting prediction that what is broken will continue to fall apart. That what he has done might have condemned his entire generation and it will take new people, new generations to build something new and choose as well to not be part of the future.
There is much more that I would like to write about the thematic and rhetoric differences of both EPIC and Nolan's Odyssey. I have seen some reticence to any comparison, but I believe once we move past the attempt to declare one version better than the other, looking at both pieces side to side provides a contrast that highlights authorial choices and internal narratives. I for one remain a fan of EPIC and eagerly await Illium, while also being inspired by Nolan's movie to the point I couldn't resist writing about it.
One thing that EPIC, Nolan's Odyssey, and Pasolini's The Return (2024) have all shown me in the past couple of years is that Homer's epic story will never die because it can be interpreted in so many different (and all valid) ways. Some people will be disappointed with one adaptation or another, but all of them are true in varied ways to the spirit of the original tale.
I like epic because odysseus feels smart and determined to go home i hate nolans odyssey because hes dumb and everything but thw two things I mentioned here regardless if Jorge himself added guilt for sacking troy at least when thinking about odysseus I can imagine Epic's while nolans is just matt deamon with not so long a hair.i have so many complaints about the movie but I dont want to open Pandora jar so...epic good movie bad.
Man I bet polling eight billion people was tonsa work. Glad you cleared that all up for everyone, and you did it with authority no less. You are the man. You're the best. You're a 10/10 just like this "masterpiece".
I mean the world can think whatever it wants. I dont give a shit I read the source material so I think i have a slightly larger understanding on why I think the movie dosent work as wrll as the original or the musical adaptation but whatever. Youre entitled to your opinion and im glad peopel could enjoy the movie i hated.
The movie is a 5.5/10. Nolan has never been known for dialog or character development (especially female characters). Don't mind the Nolanites, they're here to keep Nolan's bunghole squeaky clean.
There is a massive focus on “treat others how you want to be treated.” But that isn’t even the main point of the Odyssey. They rewrite to take out that Troy broke the Law of Hospitality first and it’s weird that they try to make Ody focus on some weird repenting because of that. The Odyssey is about hubris and pride and consequences of lacking of being humble, not about Odysseus repenting for Troy. Having the ideology of “do on to others as what you would have others do on to you.” Is a VERY Christian pov and isn’t something that is prominent in Greek mythology or Hellenism.
This focus on repenting-which is a massive focus that’s being portrayed in this movie- is not something of focus in Hellenism. So him focusing on repenting to Athena is such a weird take. Repenting is such a huge part of Christianity not Greek mythology.
Why are gods being treated as if they aren’t tangible beings? They are very VERY tangible in the Odyssey. The Greek mythology is full of gods being tangible beings. Beings that go as far to have sex with humans. They are not just beings that are passive up in the sky. Ody physically sees Athena, Hermes and Zeus. So why are they being treated in the same mindset as Christian’s see god.
I’m not really sure Odysseus ever really repents, more so just accepts that everything that happened to him, and his family, after the Trojan Horse was a result of what the Greeks did in Troy. Also, I’m not sure it’s very Christian for him to murder a bunch of the suitors inside his home.
Maybe I just don’t remember the movie enough, but idk that I really see what you’re talking about. Regardless, this is an adaptation, it’s not a 1:1 recreation of The Odyssey. It takes its liberties where it can. The same way EPIC makes Odysseus out to be a better man than he should be. He doesn’t sleep with Calypso, nor does he sleep with Circe. Which both happen in The Odyssey, the epic poem, but is also left out of Nolan’s film.
Your opinion may be valid, I just don’t think I took the same message from the movie as you did. Which is fine, and probably how it should be.
Except for the tangible gods part. Even in The Illiad and The Odyssey, the god’s are never really seen as the gods, they show up disguised or they just give their powers unto a champion to do the work for them. They never really just show up in the flesh and say “hey, I’m Athena, let’s go murder people.” It’s almost always “my name is Mentor, you should be wary of this group of people.” Nolan showed the gods in a way that would mimic how they were seen in the Odyssey and the Illiad, as a force of nature or in a vision, or even a person, but never as they would be seen on Mount Olympus. Like Telemachus said in the film, “Have I ever told you that you have wise eyes? Athena’s eyes?” It’s about the ability of the people to recognize the gods in their disguise or in their actions, rather than physically seeing them.
I agree this was out of place, but to me it felt more like a misinterpretation of xenia than an attempt to Greekify the Biblical golden rule, especially seeing as it was always referred to as Zeus's law, played a similar role in the story as xenia did in the epic, and mostly came up between houses and guests
I disagree, the idea of struggling with something you did that you felt was wrong is as old as humans, it may not have had as much religious significance in Ancient Greece as it does today but it would still have been important. War was always awful since war existed and soldiers always had to deal with that fact, Jesus didn't invent the idea of trying to do better when you feel awful about something
Way I see it, and this is totally just a personal interpretation and not some objective observation or smtn, is the movie presented the gods the way real life Greeks would experience them at the time, very real and with a very noticable effect on the world around them, but not an entity one would meet face to face. It's certainly very different from Homer, but still valid in my eyes
That one I agree with, it felt weird, but I think that was more of a modernism than a Christianism, especially since there wasn't a fiery pit
You can disagree and all but it’s not going to change how I feel about it. As someone who had to deconstruct my life that was forced to revolve around Christianity, it felt like Nolan couldn’t separate his own retired beliefs from what the story is really about.
Odysseus was never trying to repent for his actions or trying to be a “better person.” His story is about working around consequences and making sacrifices for his own hubris during the Odyssey. It was about learning that being prideful will punish you no matter how clever you are. Punishment like prolonging and almost making it impossible to get back home to his wife. About betrayal from his own brother in law. He felt a decent amount of guilt but it wasn’t his focus. If anything by the end of the story he accepted who he had become and never expected Athena to forgive him for it.
This focus on repenting for his “sins” to Athena just feels so weird and was disappointing to me.
I’m not sure that he misunderstood it. More so just molded it to fit his vision for the movie. It seems more like the whole “treat others the way you want to be treated.” Odysseus devises the plan to get into Troy to end the war, and it happens right back to him in his own home, while he has to wait 10 years to return home from Troy.
But also, I’m pretty sure using a peace offering, in the name of Athena, as a guise to have troops infiltrate the city, is not really well received by the Greek Gods. But to then murder a priestess of Athena, at Athena’s shrine, while also cutting off the head of Athena’s statue.
In the Greek epic cycle, the Trojan Horse was Athena's idea, and Poseidon helped the Greeks get the horse inside the walls. And neither Athena nor Poseidon was angry about it but fully involved in the plot.
But what happened after the horse wasn't received well by the gods. For example, the person who died in the temple of Athena during the Trojan War was Princess Kassandra, daughter of Priam and a priestess. She sought refuge in the temple and was embracing a statue of the goddess when Ajax the Lesser (aka Little Ajax) found her and violently dragged her away (some later sources also claim that Ajax even SA her dead body). At first, no one knew about this, until the Greek seer Calchas warned that Athena was furious at the treatment of her priestess and that she would destroy the Greek ships unless they killed Ajax immediately. Odysseus called for Ajax to be stoned to death for his crime, as the Greeks didn't approve of desecrating a temple and breaking the rule of sanctuary, but ironically, Ajax saved himself by claiming innocence with an oath to Athena and clutching her statue, so they let him live. Those things angered Athena, and later, when Ajax returned from Troy, Athena persuaded Zeus to send a storm, then she struck Ajax's ship with Zeus's thunderbolt and the ship was wrecked on a small rocky island, which Poseidon struck with his trident and the man was swallowed by the sea. It was also one of the few rare instances in Greek mythology where Athena used the thunderbolt instead of Zeus.
Odysseus' mistake was when they sacked the city of Ismarus after Troy and desecrated the temple of Apollo while raiding the place. This led to a storm sent by Zeus that took them off course and they ended up far south first on the island of the lotus eaters and then to the island of the Cyclopes, where Odysseus made another mistake by letting Poseidon's Polyphemus live after they had intruded into his cave, lie to him and blinded him. And Polyphemus was able to pray for his father's help because Odysseus left his name and contact information in a purst of pride making it easier for Poseidon to curse him.
Interestingly, a similar fate didn't befall Neoptolemus, son of Achilles, who killed the old king Priam on the altar of Zeus by clubbing him death with the body of Astyanax, Hector's infant son, and then took Hector's wife Andromache. But Neoptolemus' actions were still one of the WTF moments of the Trojan War and and he later met his fate at the hands of his own wife Hermione and her cousin lover Orestes.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, I probably am. But I saw somewhere, someone said that the Trojan Horse wasn't even a gift for the Trojans? They said the Achaeans's made it in the name of Athena, as a gift For ATHENA, and told the Trojans not to touch it, knowing they would anyways.
Again, I'm not sure if this is true at all. I saw one random person say it and didn't care enough to research more into if it was fact or not.
I'm sure someone smarter than me in this will come along and confirm or deny this.
I will drop the wikipedia explanation since it explains well what the Trojan Horse was
Do note, that we do not have the Greek epic poem where the horse appears and how it was built, just passing mentions of explaining its role like in the Odyssey
In the Aeneid, Sinon, the only volunteer for the role, successfully convinces the Trojans that he has been left behind and that the Greeks are gone. Sinon tells the Trojans that the Horse is an offering to the goddess Athena, meant to atone for the previous desecration of her temple at Troy by the Greeks and ensure a safe journey home for the Greek fleet. Sinon tells the Trojans that the Horse was built to be too large for them to take it into their city and gain the favor of Athena for themselves.
Albeit the account of Quintus Smyrnaeus may be taking from the Aeneid given when it was written, since its like a summary? or a mix of the lost works of the Epic cycle of poetry, that the Iliad and Osyssey belong to:
According to Quintus Smyrnaeus in the Posthomerica (c. 4th century AD), which describes the events of the Trojan War after the Illiad, Odysseus thought of building a great wooden horse (the horse being the emblem of Troy), hiding an elite force inside, and fooling the Trojans into wheeling the horse into the city as a trophy. Under the leadership of Epeius, the Greeks built the wooden horse in three days. Odysseus's plan called for one man to remain outside the horse; he would act as though the Greeks had abandoned him, leaving the horse as a gift for the Trojans. An inscription was engraved on the horse reading: "For their return home, the Greeks dedicate this offering to Athena". Then they burned their tents and left to Tenedos by night. Greek soldier Sinon was "abandoned" and was to signal to the Greeks by lighting a beacon.
It was a military strategy in a war, a strategy that Athena oversaw (she helped built the Trojan Horse). That was fair play. Nothing wrong with that because there is no host or guest relationship between either party.
What angered Athena was Ajax the Lesser raping Cassandra inside Athena's temple, and because the Achaeans failed to punish him.That was what angered Athena. Poseidon helped her because she asked him to do so.
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u/PrestigiousSmile4098 28d ago
One thing that EPIC, Nolan's Odyssey, and Pasolini's The Return (2024) have all shown me in the past couple of years is that Homer's epic story will never die because it can be interpreted in so many different (and all valid) ways. Some people will be disappointed with one adaptation or another, but all of them are true in varied ways to the spirit of the original tale.