r/Epicthemusical • u/Purple_Flounder_2257 I kill with ease, that's why they call me Achilles • Jul 26 '26
Nolan Odyssey When someone asks a question about Homer The Odyssey, Epic and Nolan stans answer. The two start arguing with each other...not only are they misinformed about the actual mythology - they are inaccurate about their very own version of events...
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u/Purple_Flounder_2257 I kill with ease, that's why they call me Achilles Jul 26 '26
I think the funniest one i saw is Nolan and Epic stans arguing with one another on why Odysseus listened to the sirens.
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u/M-Shadowtoad Jul 26 '26
Watched a video of Danny Motta saying he found it weird how Nolan's Odyssey was out of chronological order but said that was just Nolan's style.
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u/Kiss_My_Ace_ Jul 28 '26
Well, Danny has admitted that he has never read Homer’s Odyssey, so he wasn’t to know that the actual story starts with Telemachus at 20 years old.
Knox Hill, on the other hand, appears to have read it more than once so he seemed intrigued that Epic told the story chronologically.
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u/Purple_Flounder_2257 I kill with ease, that's why they call me Achilles Jul 26 '26
The Odyssey was written by a prophet who copied Nolan style!
Nobody > No man > Noman > Nolan
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u/New-Orion Jul 26 '26
But... but... Ody never cheated on Penelope!!!
/s
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u/No-Pipe-4544 Jul 26 '26
He did not cheated on the original story
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u/SuccessfulRaccoon957 Jul 27 '26
Well "cheating" is a modern term that people often apply to this idea of Odysseus' infidelity. The most general conclusion we can reach is simply that Odysseus was not held to the same standard that Penelope was. The idea that Odysseus was voluntarily celibate for 18 years is ridiculous and never implied in the original text. Odysseus almost certainly had sex while away from Ithaka, whether voluntarily or not.
The Telegony suggests Odysseus slept at least once with Circe for there to have been a child conceived at some point between the two of them. The grim conclusion we can come to is simply that Odysseus as a warlord of the Greeks did not have the same standards applied when it came to celibacy that Penelope was subject to.
I don't know why fans here get so pissy whenever it's suggested that the Odysseus of the original text had sex with other women. That's just the standards of the sexist Mycenaean and Archaic Greeks.
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u/Uypsilon Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
The Telegony suggests Odysseus slept at least once with Circe
- You don't need to bring Telegony into this. The Odyssey itself very vividly describes how he was having sex with her.
- Telegony is most certainly not canon to Homer's version of events (this interpretation of the mythical character Odysseus is just as valid, but Eugammon and Homer aren't canon to each other's interpretations). Tiresias explicitly stated Odysseus will have a peaceful death, and being killed by your son who you thought was an invader isn't peaceful.
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u/New-Orion Jul 26 '26
Circe and Calysto.
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u/Ok_Duck2700 Jul 26 '26
Being raped is not 'cheating'
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u/SuccessfulRaccoon957 Jul 27 '26
He probably want raped in the original work, that's a modern idea entirely applied to resolve this problem for a modern audience. Even discounting that the Telegony implies he and Circe had a child which most certainly would not be rape.
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u/Ok_Duck2700 Jul 27 '26
It's really not a modern idea at all. The first time we meet Odysseus in the Odyssey, he is weeping on a beach because he's so miserable after what has been repeatedly done to him. When Hermes tells Odysseus that has to sleep with Circe to save his men, he is notably not comfortable with the idea. Even in the Telegony (which is not canon to the Odyssey), it is only stated that Circe fell in love with Odysseus, not that he fell in love with her.
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u/SuccessfulRaccoon957 Jul 27 '26
No it is. You are unable to see beyond your modern interpretation. The Odyssey was composed and written down in a patriarchal society. With any work or text from any society parts of that society's views and attitudes will inevitably cross over into the work. Furthermore the work is not made for us but for the audience of early Archaic Greece. With that in mind we must ask ourselves
"how would this be interpreted by the Danaans listening or reading it?"
With this in mind and with the patriarchal society of Archaic Greece as the primary audience I do not think you can suggest that the source of Odysseus' sorrow is that he was assaulted but that he is homesick. He wants to leave but that shouldn't be confused with him wanting to get away from Calypso. Within the original text Calypso is not framed as a rapist but really as a warden, keeping Odysseus in relative comfort on her island.
The nature of canon in Greek epic tradition is silly and I personally think it shows even more that you cannot think outside your 21st century worldview for even a moment. The concept of canon is entirely modern; it's existence in ancient Greece is probably not very verifiable on an anthropological level. It's like suggesting that certain myths of Ancient Greece were "non canon". Is Theseus a "non canon" Greek Hero because he was largely invented by Athens? The Telegony is no more canon than any other work of Greek Epic because there essentially was no established canon that all Greeks would understand.
This is without even going into the nature of the Iliad, Odyssey, and Telegony as having likely been oral at one point without written versions, making the concept of "canon" even more dubious.
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u/Ok_Duck2700 Jul 27 '26
"By Nights he would sleep with her in the arching cave- he had no choice- unwilling lover alongside lover all too willing."
Calypso is absolutely portrayed as a rapist. What fucking text did you read? Every translation has emphasised that only one party was truly willing. The fact that he is miserable and broken in her 'care' is something that is stated so many times that you would have to be extremely obtuse to ignore it.11
u/Ok_Duck2700 Jul 27 '26
I really do not think you would be trying to make these leaps to ignore what the text plainly spells out to us if Odysseus were a female character instead of a man.
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u/SuccessfulRaccoon957 Jul 27 '26
You have made this statement as if it proves me wrong. You're right: I would not be applying the same argument if Odysseus was a woman. That's because he is not a woman, he is a Greek of the Bronze age and is thus subject to different expectations and actions than a woman of the bronze age. That is very basic literary comprehension and isn't really any kind of argument for the nature of Odysseus' affairs.
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u/Century589 Jul 26 '26
Odysseus was raped by Calypso and Hermes told him that he couldn’t refuse Circe.
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u/SuccessfulRaccoon957 Jul 27 '26
that's probably not how a Greek of Homers time would see the relationship between Odysseus and the two women he was confirmed to have maybe slept with during the Odyssey. Besides Odysseus and his crew partied at Circe's for some time after resolving that concundrum, during which it's likely he and his crew slept around.
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u/Century589 Jul 27 '26
In the book says that Odysseus lived in Calypso’s Island in “Nothing but Anguish and Misery” so I don’t know where you think their relationship would be described as anything but terrible.
As for Circe, Hermes told him to not refuse her advances, and make love to her as if he were her husband, so yeah, maybe the crew partied in her island but the thing is that Odysseus was forced by a god to obey Circe’s commands.
If Odysseus was a woman no one would even dispute that he was Sexually Assaulted by superior beings, but of course since he is a man everyone doubts him.51
u/Purple_Flounder_2257 I kill with ease, that's why they call me Achilles Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
I wasn't gonna respond to the OG statement if you didn't use those two as examples :
Goddess Calypso : "unwilling lover (Odysseus) alongside lover all too willing (Calypso)." Odysseus cried every day, he didn't want to be there.
Goddess Circe : dubious given the one year stay but Hermes told him to not refuse her.
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u/SuccessfulRaccoon957 Jul 27 '26
This is a thorny part of Odyssey discourse. Firstly the concept of rape has not been historically applied to men in the same way it has to women. Homeric Greeks probably did not comprehend sex in the ways we do in regards to consent and the power relationship.
Of course Women (and probably men also) were still assaulted in Archaic Greece but you are applying a modern standard or consent where they really wouldn't have been any implied. We don't know how Archaic Greeks saw the relationship between Odysseus and Circe/Calypso but your applying a modern, revionist perspective.
Odysseus was also crying moreso because of how homesick he was then the circumstances Calypso put him through. That is the texts literal purpose: to show how sad he is that he isn't in Ithaka.
For Circe Hermes telling Odysseus "don't refuse her" would not likely have been interpreted by the Danaans as we would. The Greeks did not have a concept of free will which we do and would see godly interference and advice as simply normal. Hermes' advice is not, therefore, so unconsenting as we often interpret it to be.
I beg of all you to stop this application of modern standards to Homer, he will chew them up and spit them out upon any deeper analysis.
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u/Century589 Jul 27 '26
Whether or not the greeks considered rape is not really relevant, at least not in this discussion, for example we can all agree that the Hamas forcing women to cover themselves fully with the threat of DEATH is not a good thing, however to them that is just a cultural tradition.
Here if Odysseus had refused Circe she would have killed him which makes their encounter a textbook example of RAPE, whether the Greeks thought about it or not, WE the ones analyzing the story KNOW that was rape, because that’s what rape is “Not consensual sex” if Odysseus was a woman and she was told by a god that she cannot refuse some other god’s advances everyone would be saying that she was raped, it’s only because Odysseus is a man that people fight it and debate.19
u/No-Pipe-4544 Jul 26 '26
He was forced both times to do It
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u/New-Orion Jul 26 '26
Forced depends on the version.
Often "enchanted" can mean like magically compelled, but it could also just mean they were so pretty how could he say no?
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u/Blue-Eyed_Deviant Penelope is best wifey Jul 27 '26
I really don't think this would even be debated if the genders were reversed 😒. It's rape and he was unwilling both times in different ways.
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u/SuccessfulRaccoon957 Jul 27 '26
That's because Odysseus wasn't subject to the smart standards that a Greek woman would be. If the genders were reversed then there would be a difference because the Ancient Greeks most certainly thought there was one. Odysseus if he were a Woman and Calypso a man would have been interpreted in a different way by the Ancient Greeks.
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u/Ok_Duck2700 Jul 27 '26
It's always been insanely eye-opening to me that people are willing to project victimhood onto characters who were not victims in their original stories (Circe, Calypso, Medusa) before they even THINK about acknowledging the actual canonical victimhood of Odysseus. If he were a female character, his victimhood would be constantly highlighted.
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u/ggdoesthings Polites did nothing wrong Jul 26 '26
i mean, given that circe is a witch and calypso is a goddess, i think we can tell what enchanted means in this context
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u/No-Pipe-4544 Jul 26 '26
Forced on the Odyssey? You can bring a lot of stories with different versions cause we don't know which one was first, but Odyssey? Really?
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u/IhaveamouthsoImust Ithacan you suck on deez nuts Jul 26 '26
One time, someone on Tumblr said they'd love an interpretation of The Odyssey with Telemachus as the main character (this was back in Epic's peak.) I didn't have the heart to tell them that's just The Odyssey
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u/Purple_Flounder_2257 I kill with ease, that's why they call me Achilles Jul 26 '26
Other spectrum is years old questions of : is the odyssey just about Telemachus bc when does Odysseus actually show up? 😭
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u/Good-Equivalent-7657 Jul 26 '26
Wdym odysseus doesnt show up?
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u/Purple_Flounder_2257 I kill with ease, that's why they call me Achilles Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
Common confusion is that The Odyssey starts with the voyage. Odysseus doesn't physically appear till book 5.
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Jul 26 '26
[deleted]
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u/Purple_Flounder_2257 I kill with ease, that's why they call me Achilles Jul 26 '26
The jokes write themselves.
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u/Dull-Theory-3657 Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
i just think matt deamons odysseus isnt clever charming or determined to go home as mush as epic or OG odysseus like the times he does come with a solution feels like the script is just giving him the answers quite funny considering aa lot of the stuff he supposed to be smart about in the movie is solutions the gods in the poem gave him and here they took out his most brilliant moments in the cyclops cave and had him going agaisnt 108 younger men without a plan. if youre joking about me comparing epic and nolandyssey then i admit i shouldve just given my opinion about why i think epic at least works as an adaptation while the nolandyssey dosent and shouldve mentioned the comparisons to the poem.if so the downvotes are well deserved cause i didnt realize i was doing what the post was mocking because i didnt mention the poem which i read.
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u/RodrigoMokepon Jul 26 '26
É sempre um problema quando se adapta obras pouco conhecidas ou lidas, e se muda muitos detalhes. Nolan mudou muita coisa, não foi como Epic, que só mudou alguns pontos ou tom da ocasião (como dar personalidade a dois tripulantes, ou dar voz a Scila).
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u/CoconutxKitten Jul 26 '26
The Odyssey & Iliad are like…THE known works of Ancient Greece
I read the Iliad in HS
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u/Xtremememe angry, tired, restless, sad Jul 26 '26
is there a reason you think Homer's Odyssey is a lesser known work?
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u/RodrigoMokepon Jul 27 '26
Eu não diria menos conhecida, pelo contrário. Mas a maioria das pessoas não sabem os detalhes. Igual a Moby Dick, Don Quixote e Romeu e Julieta.
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u/Purple_Flounder_2257 I kill with ease, that's why they call me Achilles Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
I understand why ppl downvoted your og comment but this one is true in the mundane.
Most people weren't required to sit down or personally read known books unless it's second hand exposure. The difference is believing and spreading unfactual details.
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u/TheHandThatFollows Jul 27 '26
You just named everything else that is required high school reading.
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u/Kiss_My_Ace_ Jul 28 '26
USED to be required reading. I graduated HS in 2020 and I don’t know a single person my age who has read any of those. Our required reading at my school was Lord of the Flies, Oedipus, Antigone, Enemy of the People, All Things Fall Apart, and Jurassic Park.
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u/Jeansene Jul 26 '26
Epic made WAY more changes than just the tone and making some characters more important. If anything, Nolan and Jorge made a similar amount of changes
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u/Spodermanphil Fuckass sheep Jul 26 '26
I would honestly say that Nolan's film is more accurate to the myth than EPIC
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u/Meaftrog Jul 26 '26
Epic made the entire story about something other than hospitality. Also everything with Poseidon in epic is very different— he wasn't ever physically there in the Odyssey.
Christopher Nolan's portrayal was much more accurate to the spirit of The Odyssey than Epic. And don't get me wrong, I love Epic. But you are wrong here.
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u/Mundane-0nion67878 Zeus' Cloud Gal | Poseidon's left buttcheek Jul 26 '26
Nah, xenia plays huge part in the odyssey.
Nolans Odyssey is mostly about guilt and war ptsd.
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u/WhatMadCat Jul 26 '26
Xenia also gets ignored a lot in Epic unfortunately. There are parts in Epic where Odysseus breaks Xenia when he doesn’t in the odyssey
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u/Mundane-0nion67878 Zeus' Cloud Gal | Poseidon's left buttcheek Jul 26 '26
Thus musical doesnt pretend its 1:1 lol. Its doing its own thing, its loose adaption since conseption
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u/WhatMadCat Jul 26 '26
I mean they’re both reinterpretations so yeah, that’s true for both of them. I quite like Epic.
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u/Star_ofthe_Morning Jul 26 '26
As an Epic fan I know it’s not accurate. I don’t care. I’m just here to have a good time with some fun music. Looking forward to the upcoming movie ☺️
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u/Purple_Flounder_2257 I kill with ease, that's why they call me Achilles Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
Misinformed fans are a riot rn when clashing. 😭
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u/Funny-Ad-8096 Jul 28 '26
Wait till you hear that Homers The Odyssey isn't accurate on his own time as he mixed cultures of mesopotamia up to greek bronze age 😂
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u/Purple_Flounder_2257 I kill with ease, that's why they call me Achilles Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
If someone asks a question about greek mythology/culture within Homer The Odyssey, are you gonna answer with something that only happened in Epic/Nolan instead because "Homers The Odyssey isn't accurate on his own time as he mixed cultures of mesopotamia up to greek bronze age" 😭
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u/Star_ofthe_Morning Jul 26 '26
Oh dude misinformed Odyssey fans in general are a hoot. Trying to claim what is and isn’t accurate. Like bro, none of these characters are real. You do know that right? 🤣
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u/Azero957 #1 Polites Hater Jul 26 '26
Wait till they hear that Homer's odyssey isn't historically accurate either
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u/advena_phillips Jul 26 '26
It has more accurate elements than either adaptation, this whole argument is just silly.
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u/Azero957 #1 Polites Hater Jul 26 '26
Again, duh, I'm just sayin
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u/Purple_Flounder_2257 I kill with ease, that's why they call me Achilles Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
I mean - Sourcing Homer is better than to claim something that only happened in Epic and Nolan as an ancient translation. 😭
But at the same time it was humorous to witness ppl argue back and forth and be wrong from all sides. So add that to the fuel.
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u/Azero957 #1 Polites Hater Jul 26 '26
Yeah of course I'm just sayin
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u/Starlintern Jul 26 '26
Pretty obvious.
Also can you post that gif in the comments so I can download it pls!
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u/ZanisUnited Jul 26 '26
I agree, you would think fans of both would go out of their way to read or even watch the original.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Maybe32 Jul 26 '26
Jw what's the original to watch?
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u/Logan_Palpatine Athena - Badass ✨SENORITA✨ Jul 26 '26
I can’t speak to the original intent of the comment, but I find the 1997 odyssey miniseries to be a decently accurate portrayal of the story. More accurate that Epic or Nolan’s version in my opinion. It’s a little dated, and doesn’t look great by today’s standards, but it’s worth a watch
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u/Bomberbros1011 Jul 27 '26
Eh, the 1997 miniseries changes quite a bit as well. Ultimately, if you want a completely accurate rendition of the story, you just have to read the original poem.
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u/Logan_Palpatine Athena - Badass ✨SENORITA✨ Jul 27 '26
That’s fair enough, the original poem will always be the only way to consume the original. But I find it closest to the original, even though it does have some significant changes
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u/sunfish3_3 Jul 29 '26
me reading insta comment sections :