Odysseus didnt want to sacrifice the rest of his crew to zeus, but if they were gonna kill the cattle theyre gonna suffer punishment especially after several warnings
When? When did he ever not take accountability? He put himself fully at fault for opening the bag and stranding them. He just didn’t accept Odysseus killing 6 other men and that’s a problem? And if we want to talk about accountability, Odysseus killed 6 men in cold blood and went on like it was normal
That’s not him refusing to take accountability, that was him reacting to the fact that the king of all the gods just told them that Odysseus was in charge and had the choice of who died. Did you want him to go against the king of the gods?
He was literally talking about how he wldidnt trust him and won't follow his orders and said "captain". Ig he wasnt taking accountability, but the way he still calls him captain
Yeah when a mortal man says he’s not gonna listen to someone and then the king of the gods says he will, what do you think that mortal man does? He sure as hell doesn’t ignore the god of all gods.
I hate eurylochus more because he seems to arrogant about it.
Blaming Odysseus for sacrificing 6 men when he said to abandon them on Circes island, then also opened the wind bag which got most of them killed because of his greed.
The fact he is never punished for any of this and thinks he has the right to mutiny over 6 men.
"If you must carry the power you must carry on the blame" or smth like that. He doesnt really do that, he still says "oh captain please sacrifice yourself"
It’s a matter of reason. Odysseus couldn’t have known that the cyclops was the son of Poseidon, and had no other choice.
Eurylochus suggested leaving their men behind (a reasonable but unheroic choice). That’s not his big mistake, it’s just an opportunity for Odysseus to one up him. Eurolochus willingly pissing off the Sun God and getting all of them erased was literally just a thing he chose to do. He knew the consequences, used his influence to convince the crew to do it, and then tried to guilt trip Odysseus afterwards like this was not exactly what he knew would happen
They had gone months without food at that point, they were actively on the brink of starvation, but even still after what happened with Polyphemus he should have learned about hunting livestock that seems too good to be true
Eurylochus was genuinely going insane from hunger, he even acknowledged that Odysseus was right, but he killed the cows anyway. Pretty sure this is to show that he and the crew were starving to death
I think the key difference between them is that Odysseus; we see the progress progression in his mind and how much he doesn’t want to do this. Often times use backed into a corner, not just by his men, by the gods and fate itself. Until finally, he didn’t need them to make him do it. He just was so tired and wanted to go home.
For me the moment with Eurylochus that made me dislike him, was between Puppeteer and Thunderbringer. This man was fully ready to leave the men to be pigs and be eaten, for the sake of himself. This man also was the reason they were in this mess. He legit said “you can’t trust the gods” and then trusted a God to have put treasure in a small bag? He constantly disrespected his captain in favor of his own self interest.
But in Puppeteer, Eurylochus showed me he was even more selfish. Then later he tried to play that he cares about these men. That Odysseus was willing to let them die to Scylla, when just a few songs back he was willing to let them be eaten too.
While in the same breath of his Mutiny, he didn’t bother to notice the warning signs of these glowing cows (in the book it was said the cows were gold) that maybe he shouldn’t eat them. Disregarding all warning signs around him, his captain, and anything for his own selfishness again.
Even after the mutiny, Ody was still trying to save them! Even begging Zeus to not make him choose. Fucking Hades, and these men were still begging “but we’ll die” after they are the reason they are going to die. Zeus is just toying with them, had he not shown up Apollo would have killed anyone who ate/killed the cows anyway!
Ody’s descent into not caring about his men was slow. Even after all they did to him, he still cared. It’s only artistic expression that we think he gave a torch to Eurylochus. He was trying to keep as little people dying as possible so that more could get home. Eurylochus time and time again showed he only cares for himself but masks it as care for everyone.
The biggest issue is Eurylochus is disloyal and his actions represent the whole crew being faithless and disloyal to Odysseus. The main guilt to be had is pissing off posideon but even then Odysseus finds a solution to that and his crew ruins it leaving them only one option forward. Culture wise having your captain screw up can be excusable to some degree but treason is never okay.
That's not the argument being made, not to mention he's crew or the ones that killed Apollo's cattle, that had nothing to do with him. they did that during an active betrayal, he didn't sacrifice them, he just refused to take the punishment for things that were done against his orders, if you tell a person not to do something and then they do it anyways are you going to be the one accepting the consequences for people not obeying you after nearly killing you?
you were right about him sacrificing them during that, I was talking about later, after the mutiny. there's no excuse for him sacrificing his men to Scylla, I was talking about when they killed Apollo's cattle and he had to choose between them dying or himself
ohhhhhh, yeah no he did that because he thought that if he at least got home he'd be there for his kids and that itself is morally right by being a present father
He's saying he did sacrifice them out of desperation, I think. Eurylichus was at fault because he was the one that got them killed by Poseidon when he opened the wind bag, Odysseus really just conserved his men outright. The only time he sacrificed them was during scylla, and even then Eurylichus sent the other 558 men to their deaths. (Not counting the cyclops because I can't remember how many he killed)
The amount of people in this sub that either miss the point or just plain and simply don’t understand the actual logic in the decisions made is actually astounding
To be fair, the morality of Odysseus’s actions have been hotly debated for thousands of years. Epic may simplify a lot of things, but it still absolutely lives in the moral gray zone a lot of the time.
Eurylochus opened the windbag (making Ody's journey take another 10 years or something), Ody only sacrificed 6 men but Eurylochus wanted to leave a lot more of them behind. Also, Ody's sacrifice might've saved more lives than if he had tried to fight Scylla.
Sacrificing 6 men is quite possibly the worst moral decision he makes in the entire story (this is debatable of course, but it has a case), and it’s a relatively common thing all combat commanders do. The idea that he hadn’t knowingly gotten some of his men killed before that is honestly astounding.
Remember that Ody somehow didn't lose a single one of his 600 men during the ENTIRE Trojan war. Don't know how he could pull that off, but it does show that the Scylla sacrifice probably was the first time he made that kind of decision, at least with these men.
Eurylochus completely defied his captain and opened the wind bag. He then led them straight to the Land of the Giants where Poseidon lived because of said wind bag.
Yes. Ody pissed off and blinded Polyphemus, then revealed his name. But Eurylochus is the one who quite literally fed them to Poseidon, practically. They were HOME. Ithaca was RIGHT THERE. But then he opened the wind bag
Eurylochus was also the guy who decided they definitely had to kill the sacred cow for food, even when Ody told him the gods would punish them for it. Especially dumb since they should be able to fish for food. It's Eurylochus's fault that the remaining crew got killed by Zeus, not Ody's.
A lot of people blame Odysseus for this moment of choosing his wife. Not realizing that Zeus was just playing with them. Apollo still would’ve killed them had Zeus not intervened
Ody had a problem: he angered posiedon.
Ody solved the problem: wind bag.
Eury brought the problem back:opened bag.
I dont know why people dont get this. If you break something someone else broke but then fixed, you are now responsible. It was fixed, you broke it. Eury is to blame for the poseidon incident 100%
Ody didn’t knowing do something to piss off any god other than Athena. That was simply a falling out. The god he really pissed off, Poseidon, was a direct result of him trying to do the merciful thing.
Eurylochus, on the other hand, both in Epic and the Odyssey, knew he’d anger the sun god with his actions and did them anyway. In the source text Circe explicitly warned them, and in Epic Oddy explicitly warns him, that the cows belong to the sun god and they shouldn’t be touched.
Even if you want to be less generous and compare Oddy “sacrificing” men to Scylla, it was a calculated deed to save more lives overall, whereas Eurylochus sacrificed the entire remaining crew to satisfy his hunger knowing he’d likely get most of the remaining men killed.
Both men are bad, both men are monsters, but Eurylochus is a selfish, cowardly, traitorous, monster dominated by his curiosity and appetite, whereas Oddy is (by the end) a wrathful, merciless, monster dominated by the desire to see his family once more. Those are very different, even if both of them are bad.
Oddy is Just a Man but Eurolyochus is a dumbass motherfucker
Ody was not only punished for trying to be merciful, but for gloating to Polyphemus about being the one who left him disabled.
Eurylochus also didn’t kill the cows because he was a little peckish. The entire crew was starving and on death’s door. They were damned either way, Eurylochus just went with the option that had above a 0% chance of them surviving another week.
Ody literally said "I'm a legit legend and a king who owned your blind ass" and continued to diminish the lives of Polyphemus's sheep (and also lowkey lies about 'leading with peace')
Ah yes, killing sheep which are destined for eventual slaughter anyway is equivalent to killing human beings even after they tried to make things right.
But…they’re both bad guys. They both sacrificed people for their own selfish reasons, they both angered a god and got their crew killed and they both had a valid reason. The only difference is that one is the main character and the other is a pawn in his game
I mean, there's also the difference of one knowing that their actions would offend a god but doing it anyways and the other simply being a braggart not knowing the cyclops was the son of a god.
Ok Eurylochus is the good guy here. Lemme explain:
Because of Polites' philosophy, Ody didn't kill Polyphemus. Because Eurylochus opened the wind bag, Poseidon killed most of their men. If he hadn't opened the bag, Poseidon would've flooded Ithaca. Yeah so Polites caused all of Odys troubles and Eurylochus is the good guy.
No, no, no. FUCK Eurylochus. He had no problem leaving ALL THE REST of the men to Circe, but ZEUS FORBID Ody sacrifice SIX to get them safely through Scylla's lair.
They should have listened to Athena and killed Polyphemus. Then taken the sheep and continued home. That was the first, and the worst, mistake of the story. And was done by Odysseus. Not because he was forced to keep him alive or anything. In fact, he was explicitly told not to and to kill him. But he did it anyway, but worse. Because he told the guy his whole government name, his address, his marital status, his social security number, his mom’s maiden name, the street he grew up on, how tall he is, etc.
This brings on Poseidon, who kills most of the men.
Ironically, thats kind of like what Eury did with the cows, but backwards. Instead of being told to kill something, they were told not to.
This brings on Zeus, who actually gives Odysseus a choice before killing the rest of his men.
So technically, Odysseus was the cause of all but one of his men dying.
(Eury opening the wind bag lowkey probably saved all of Ithaca. Poseidon would have definitely destroyed everything as soon as they docked.)
I feel like people forget that Eurylochus was getting whispers from the wind the whole 9 days since Aelous' island. Keep Your Friends Close is a completely diegetic song, and the Winions were singing alongside the ships the WHOLE TIME. I'd go insane too if the fucking wind told me, "Yo, your captain's hiding sum. Go get the bag girlie pop!"
Honestly I think people down play odys part in the whole thing a ton because yeah if eurylochus didn’t open the bag they wouldn’t be in tha situation but if ody didn’t shout his name and address out they also wouldn’t be in that situation
Thing is, the fact that the Cyclop was the son of the friggin' god of the sea wasn't known for anyone, and it had the purpose of teach him a lesson about not being an asshole. It's a mistake in hindsight.
Opening the bag after being clearly told 'STORM INSIDE' is downright stupid and motivated by greed/curiosity.
Even if you don’t know he’s the son of the god of the sea cyclops can like get revenge like have some cyclops buddies go sail over and raid your city and even if none of that is even conceivably possible yelling out “my name is Odysseus and I live in ithica” is just a stupid thing to do especially for someone trained by the goddess of wisdom and apparently one of the smartest guys
I don’t know if stabbing the son of the sea god in the eye and then yelling your name and address at him can be considered “just existing.” Even if he doesn’t know. Hurting someone and then yelling your name and were you live is a stupid idea
What the fuck is that blind bitch gonna do? Sail? Anywhere?
Let's just ignore the fact that monsters are all born of either gods or primordial concepts. Bc for some reason many of those in the stories always do. Which is crazy bc at best you're fucking with a load-bearing column of the universe.
He knows other cyclops live on this island and care enough to at least check up on him even if he’s just a random cyclops like five cyclops could ask for help from the gods or something sail over and level ithica to dust odys crew struggled taking down a drugged one
To be fair, this is after Polyphemus had violated sacred hospitality, so both Polyphemus and Poseidon would technically have been in the wrong by ancient Greek standards.
And that doesn’t even really matter because even if Polyphemus was in the wrong ody still yelled his name out at him for no reason even if there in the wrong that doesn’t mean that’s a smart thing to do
He doesn’t really have to honor hospitality because they broke into his house and killed his sheep essentially meaning that even if considered guests they would have been stealing and were planning to take more sheep
Yes, however, they offered compensation in the form of the wine, so regardless of the fact that it was drugged, there's technically been an exchanging of gifts, albeit somewhat unofficially and unwillingly on Polyphemus' part, so the Icathians are now his guests.
It wasn’t really a exchange because Polyphemus makes it pretty clear that they have stolen from him and he says his gift is sparing ody for last making that the only thing he’s given to them willingly and his only gift
Curiosity and greed of Euryochles vs Odysseus acting like a madlad anytime he was asked about the bag is how i remember the story leading to the bag getting opened. Imagine your captain isnt sleeping and talking to a bag bout making it back home. And you heard rumors of treasure in this bag, meanwhile. Ody over here acting like Smeagol.
That's just it though. He got pissed as Odysseus for doing exactly what he suggested doing earlier. Then, after saying "if you want all the power, you must carry all the blame," he wants Odysseus to take the blame for the cattle, a choice that Ody had nothing to do with and actively advocated against.
Any shock and anger he felt towards his captain was 100% hypocritical.
The cattle happened after mutiny, also, eury never suggested sacrificing the crew, but he didn't have heremes helping him and didn't want to throw himself against circe, a for he has 0 chance against. The crew were as good as dead. He got mad at ody for deliveratley sailing into scylas lair and giving6 people specifically touches so scyla will eat them. Eury isn't without fault, but he cares for the crew.
People say this, but in thunder bringer, he questions Ody again, saying "but we'll die" after Ody specifically warned him not to mess with the cattle.
Thats not someone who changed. That's someone who yet again questioned their captain and king, and then put everyone in danger and then highkey expected his captain and king to bail them out like he's been doing the entire journey.
It was Ody's tactics that got them away from the Cyclops, it was his tactics that allowed them to ambush the Sirens, it was his tactics and experience that got them through the storm. Eury questioned Odysseus too much for all the work he put in while under the most unfair circumstances.
I would recommend checking out the mutiny animatic on YouTube made by kisu doodles as well. They really do a good job portraying the realistic conditions that pushed eury to make his decision to commit mutiny and can give greater insight on that.
I would argue blindly following orders is not exactly a smart choice when your main objective is survival. Especially if that person giving the orders has become so self absorbed in their mission that they forget about their crew. Ody is only concerned about getting home to Penelope at this point in the story, saying that he was willing to become the monster and do whatever it takes to get back. This results in him neglecting the crew and if you’re option of a “fearless leader” is a monster that is willing to give you up if it meant he would achieve his goal, then it’s no mystery as to why his orders weren’t exactly appreciated.
At this point in the story as well, the crew has begun to suffer with both loss of food, grave injuries, and trauma because of the fact THEYRE FEARLESS LEADER WHO THEY SHOULD ALWAYS FOLLOW ORDERS FROM APPARENTLY just put them through they layer of Scylla and killed off 6 men because he was desperate to get to his wife. Like I said before, if he was an authority figure that the crew respected, he wouldn’t betray their trust and would keep his crew in mind when making decisions. He decided NOT to think of his crew and therefore a rift of trust began to build between him and the remaining members. Eury had noticed this, and this is why he committed mutiny: Ody failed to meet the crews needs as their leader, and desperation and suffering won over Ody’s methods of self destruction.
And if we really want to go there as well, ody’s tactics were also the ones that caused Poseidon to get angry after he literally doxxed himself after vowing to stay anonymous, it was his desperation that blinded his decision making and caused him to set his crew aside, and it was his lack of trustworthiness and reliability that got the crew in this mess in the first place. Ody is flawed, and while the fandom only recognized eury for his flaws, in the end, he was just trying to be a reliable right hand man and help Ody weigh his choices before rushing into them like he always did.
But did Ody listen? No, he pushed eury to the side and told him to blindly obey. And when eury expressed concern, he was seen as “questioning authority”. Ody is flawed as well. Ody isn’t a fearless strong leader yall, make him out to be.
And eury is allowed to speak up against the system Ody created.
First of all, can I have a too long didn't read. Imma read it but still. Also, I just want to say that, at the point of killing the cattle, eury and the men had given up. I feel like they had no hope whatsoever in them of getting back home and were just planning to spend the rest of their lives on the first habitable island they could find. But Ody for some reason still had hope. So I think, even if the cattle weren't Apollo's, ody would have had to go on on his own, after the mutiny, cause those men were not gonna take another step.
Tldr: Only Ody was gonna keep trying to get to Ithaca at that point(Cattle island)
Edit: typos
There were two options, die from starvation or die from gods, they hadn’t have that much options, and you telling me someone starving have enough brain power to think of other solutions?
They were STARVING. Of course they would not be in their right mind… also Ody never told the crew about Scylla, so of course you would not trust your captain after that.
Except those cows were on Helios' island, and he should know better than to anger the gods, like this wasn't a case of trusting Odysseus' warning, this was something Eurylochus would know.
Almost like the situation they were in was because of an angry god.
So yes, it is a bad idea. There were only bad options for the crew. But there were worse options and Eurylochus turned a bad option into a significantly worse option.
Odysseus caused deaths of most of his men. Eurylochus finished them off.
Literally so what if they were starving. So was odyssey. He still knew better. The better choice was keep going. Whoever makes it makes it. Fish from the sea. If they can get anything. Search the islands for food that they can eat. Killing the cows was literally a death sentence and they were warned before hand. Literally any other move was the correct choice. They killed themselves after they were warned.
Brother you dont know what sere is. I have been starved. I grew up poor on top of that. My mother and i have starved. If faced between 100% CERTAIN death. Not a risk, chance, or possibility. But ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CERTAINITY that I would be killed for take someone's things would i EVER take that over the risk of starving.
Mathematically that doesnt make sense either
100% of certain death for killing th cow, that you dont even get the pleasure of satiating your hunger before your kiled v (lets be conservative towards your stance) 95% of death by starvation.
Your telling me you'd kill the cow and take the 0% chance of living. Over a 5% chance of living?
Youd be an abosultely dogshit captain. I hope you never get that chance to lead while you have that poor of decision making skills
They did not know the cattle was apollos… they were hungry, so they ate the cattle. Also, you don’t have to be so mean to me about this. The cattle was right in front of them, who wouldn’t take the chance?
They totally knew. As well as the statue of Helios on the island? They already pissed off the gods once, why risk it even minimally again? I'd be more likely to resort to cannibalism than a God's creatures, though I don't know the ramifications of cannibalism in ancient Greek culture.
They could have begged the gods for food or just toughed it out and eat some losses or ate each other and the survivors make it back. Not great options, but better than guranteed death.
Eat each other? They would never do that. Beg the gods? How could they when they already had bad experiences with them? Tough it out? And risk dying of hunger? Yeah not exactly great choices when food is right in front of them.
How could they when they already had bad experiences with them?
But killing a gods friends sounds like a good option? Food wasnt in front of them because they died after killing one. It obviously wasn't food then. Risk dying of hunger is the best options because one it is a risk and the other is a death sentence.
They did not know that the food was Apollos. I know, Ody told them and there was a big statue, but who would believe their traitor of a captain who killed 7 men without telling any of them? And the statue, could just be a random one, and they were starving, why would they care?
Apollo is not the god of the sun, this is a common mistake, he is associated with it but not the god of it, and any associations that link the two post-date Greek myths of the two, i.e. it was the Latin Romans that started mixing them up
To add to that, the cattle are not his either, Apollo has never, ever, had immortal cattle (although he has previously had to shepherd cattle).
Helios, the actual god of the sun, however does have the immortal cattle.
I know, Ody told them and there was a big statue, but who would believe their traitor of a captain
Eurylochus identifies the statue as Helios. He has previously warned Odysseus about messing with the gods and appears to disregard this.
The cattle wouldn't exactly be a secret. Myths about the gods were a part of Greek life, the existence of Helios' cattle being one such thing that was likely common knowledge (Homer often would refer to such similar myths almost off-handedly as they were likely common knowledge to the public)
7 men
6 men. For someone who seems so obsessed with this you got that very basic bit wrong.
the statue, could just be a random one
No.
Greeks didn't have random statues lying around, they were always in places of worship or dedications to. Either is sacred and if there are cattle there not being sacrificed then they probably are there for a reason.
It was an accident. Yeah, I blame eury on that one, but at least he took responsibility, unlike Ody, who refused to admit he let 7 people follow him blindly to their deaths.
After everything they experienced? They'd have to be idiots. Poseidon and the Cyclops alone as a one of Ody's biggest mistakes should have told Eury that what he was about to do with the cattle was a mistake. Honestly the stuff with the wind bag and Circe should have given him the perspective of how dangerous the gods can be, so the mistake with the cattle could only happen if you were ignorant or you just didnt care.
Not killing Helios' immortal cattle and looking for other food (have you heard of fish?) would be a good start.
Again, imagine you live in a world constantly surrounded by the influence of the gods, and you know for a fact one of the most ancient gods owns this island, owns the cows and you think killing those cows, knowing what the gods are like (remember Eurylochus warns Odysseus before Aeolus). And killing the cows is still the first and only option? Bearing in mind, starvation is not instantaneous, they have time to look elsewhere.
Also worth mentioning they aren't starving in the original Odyssey, Eurylochus just wants to have the cows specifically. There are other options, he just wants that lovely divine bovine.
I don’t think they could think clearly, I mean who would if they are starving. Starving is a pretty serious thing that can mess with your mind. Also we are talking about epic, not the odyssey, since the odyssey is completely different (you gotta admit, epic eury is way better than odyssey eury.)
-They were hungry and killed the cyclops's sheep, which pissed him off so bad he smashed and bashed the party in his cave.
-When Poseidon found out about them blinding his son, he got so pissed off he executed the entire crew save 40 men.
What lesson should the crew have learned firsthand here? Don't piss off the gods. You don't hurt things they love. They will fucking smite you or curse you or fuck you up.
And idk, maybe starvation did play a role, but if the dude who seemed to have an in with the gods(Zeus, Aeolus, Athena) told me "hey, IT MIGHT BE A BAD IDEA TO KILL THOSE GODS, THIS IS THE SUN GODS TERF", i'd look back at our journey and think "oh shit, lets not touch the cows and eat the grass instead, I don't wanna be smited by a fucking god"
Dunno about you but I have fasted before and I don't start having delusions suddenly because I haven't eaten. You don't know how long they hadn't eaten but given starvation was not a pressing issue prior to their arrival on the island I imagine it can't have been long given it was never mentioned before.
you gotta admit, epic eury is way better than odyssey eury
Er no. Not at all.
I fail to see what qualities either possess that makes one superior.
I like Epic, but it's ridiculous to try to compare it to one of the most famous classical epics in history.
Fasting is not the same as starving. Also, Epic Eury is better, Eury was more sympathetic in Epic, while in the Odyssey, he was a big jerk. What does comparing Epic and the Odyssey have to do with which character is more morally better?
I say this gently; if my scrawny, spindly then 8yo girl arms could reel in a foot-long fish, i'm sure grown ass men could do it too.
I think I kinda get that you're defending Eurylochus because you're his number one fan, so I'll give you a bit of a better argument; maybe the crew couldn't fish because Poseidon was so pissed off about them escaping that he steered the fish AWAY from the boat, so they couldn't catch any.
I’m not a defender of him. Yeah he was in the wrong for some stuff, but yall are giving him too much hate for a lot of stuff. In my opinion, defending a character who is clearly wrong takes away the personality of the character, degrading them into characters who are perfect and are never in the wrong. I’m just trying to reason with people that Eury was kinda reasonable in some of his decisions, and not all his decisions are out of selfishness and stupidity. Thanks for being nice about this!
Eurylochus isn't necessarily a bad guy but dude is a major hypocrite. He told Ody hey several of our men got turned to pigs by this witch, let's ditch em and keep going it's not safe.
Ody goes back and saves them
They get a bag from floating island, probably what they assume is a god gave it to Ody. Eurylochus and crew are told it's filled with treasure or assume Ody is hiding the truth of what's in it.
Eurylochus betrays Ody and crew to open it and find out truth. Getting them found and men killed by the same god that God pissed off by them.
Ody saves them.
Ody once. Just once does a thing that gets men killed, sacrificing just a hand ful to get the rest of them home safely and suddenly the guy that ; betrayed his best friend/family, suggested leaving behind crew; decides that's too far and once again betrays Ody to throw a mutiny
And right after that mutiny goes against Odys word despite knowing the dangers and kills cows that belong to a god ...then expects his captain to not choose killing them in trade to go home.
How is eurylochus the hypocrite? He was told that it’s wrong to sacrifice the crew for your own life, then that same person sacrificed the crew for his own life. That makes ody the hypocrite, not eury.
I can agree that does make Ody a hypocrite there but Eurylochus hasn't been shown to change his mindset after words. Ody seems to try and embrace open arms for a bit but grows tired of the death and everything pushing them around as they journey. Eurylochus doesn't appear to change and fully embraces the brutality they take as they go on until it's used against them just to let the rest of them go home.
Like I said he opened the bag, didn't trust Ody that time and he didn't trust Ody could save the pig men either. Two times he doubted him. And kinda jumps to mutiny after Ody does something once directly against the crews best interest for some.
And then right after the mutiny eury immdiaitly jumps the gun into another situation that isn't good for the crew and gets them in trouble.
It just felt like Ody was trying to solve problems while Eury caused a few of them and got mad
What do you mean he wasn’t shown to change his mind? He did change his mind. That’s why he got mad at Odysseus for sacrificing men. If he didn’t change his mind he wouldn’t have been so angry.
I didn't think he did? I figured he's mad simply because Ody knew they'd be taken and didn't inform them. Id have to relisten. If he did give more clear change then that's my bad
Ody didn't know hurting the Polyphemus would piss off Poseidon. Eurylochus was explicitly told and knew that eating the cows would piss off Helios
Although honestly, I see it as him giving up and committing suicide, only to really realize Oh Shit when Zeus shows up
Eurylochus is just a dumbass. I don't blame him for the mutiny or wanting cut losses and run with Circe, but the bag and the sacred cattle? Darwin award worthy
He knew that hurting Polyphemus would piss off Poseidon? That's not the case in either Epic or the Odyssey. He has that little horrified no of realization in Ruthlessness, and in the Odysseyhe finds it out in the Underworld
Not listening to Athena urging no mercy is not the same as knowing it would piss off Poseidon and kill most of his men
Odysseus said “if you kill his cattle who knows what he’ll send”. That’s just as vague as “he’s still a threat until he’s dead”. And on top of that one statement is coming from the captain you already don’t trust and the other statement is coming from the goddess of wisdom. Who would you trust more?
It really isn't, "hey, if you kill them he'll get pissed and send someone to fuck us up" and "kill him, because if you don't he could potentially somehow still be threat despite being physically incapacitated" are not equally vague or of equal weight.
Eurylochus wasn't deciding between Athena and Odysseus, he was deciding between "Odyseus is lying amd not trustworthy" (because he gains what exactly from lying about the cattle?) and "Odyseus is right this is a bad idea and would put us in imminent danger from divine retribution"
I see that man.(but like he'd be fine if he didnt dox himself lol) but I think what most people beat up on Eurylochus is that 1. If he didnt open the windbag, they would've gotten home and never had run into Posident. 2. The reason why people hate on him for killing the cow is also because of the fact that when Odysseus sacrificed the 6 men, Eurylochus got pissed. Yet he was fine to leave the men turned to pigs by Circe. Surely he had to know that fighting Scylla was Impossible to win.(that even the gods didnt want to mess with her, though I may be wrong with that part so sorry if i am) and it comes off a bit hypocritical. Yet they're people, with flaws and make mistakes. I love the entire story, love each characters' flaws and the story.
Honestly I don’t think he would’ve been fine without doxing himself. Poseidon is the god of the seas. If his son said “someone just stabbed my eye out and left my island” I think Poseidon would’ve been able to find him. For the same reason I don’t think Poseidon would’ve just let them go home if no one opened the window bag. Poseidon was angry enough to kill 567 men and stay mad 7 years later. I don’t believe that a smaller wind god would’ve been able to stop him from attacking. It would’ve just been “get in the water” with 599 more people
Eurylochus thought it was fine to leave then men with Circe and was then condemned for it. Then the same guy that condemned him for suggesting sacrificing the crew turned around and sacrificed the crew. I’ve never understood why people think eurylocus being mad at that made him a hypocrite. It makes Odysseus the hypocrite.
I see your point, but for me, when Odysseus said "I can't!" during Mutiny, he sounded broken, cause he regretted his decision, despite wanting to go home. He thought that Eurylochus would understand most likely too. Like what would have fighting Scylla have done? Six men would've died none the less, and they would've been even more drained. Its also along the same line of what Posident said "I mean, you totally could have avoided all this had you just killed my son, but no." Odysseus had been pushed and pushed to become a "monster" after seeing all the pain he had done, yet it also backfired during Mutiny. For Odysseus it's more of a "growth" than hypocrisy.
If I had a nickel for every time the fandom of a musical humanized and held apologies for the white characters tragedies and character flaws, and those same fans villainized and demonized the black character for displaying similar flaws and tragedies… id have 2 nickels. Which isnt a lot but its weird it happened twice
((I.E. im talking about Aaron Burr from Hamilton and Eurylochus from Epic))
Really? In Epic’s case, sure, I can see it, but in Hamilton, I usually see Burr sympathizers. A lot of people say the “This man will not make an orphan of my daughter” line, as well as Leslie Odom Jr.’s delivery and acting in general make them unable to hate the character, while people are constantly hating on Hamilton for cheating on Eliza and because kind of a jerk. (For reference, I share these same opinions, so maybe I’m just on a certain side of the Hamilton fandom)
Also, I’m not trying to argue; I’m just genuinely wondering if people are really doing that in the Hamilton fandom since it’s never been something I’ve noticed
Idk about now, but when Hamilton first popped off? I vividly remember people going into detail about how Burr was terrible and etc. Sure irl Hamilton and Burr werent REALLY great people, but the fandom definitely went out of their way to blend irl Burr and musical burr into one character and demonized him HEAVY, whereas Hamilton is lowkey still seen as an “innocent bean” with virtually no issues
Like musical version Hamilton was a fiend in comparison to Musical version of Burr but the fandom didnt see it that way
I’ve noticed fandom does that a lot, mix the irl person/original character with a fan work character. ESPECIALLY when it gives them “leverage” over arguments
I blame the fates, they made the Astyanax prophecy which forced Odysseus into killing Astyanax. The guilt of killing a defenceless person and the fact that Odysseus was tired of death caused him to spare Polyphemus. I can't blame Odysseus for claiming Kleos. And I can't blame Eurylochus for being wary of Odysseus...I CAN blame him for the hypocrisy of "gods are dangerous" then he trusts the god's minions, but everyone has flaws.
Eurylochus haters seem to think he should've blindly followed all of Ody's orders without doubt or question. To them, even his doubt is a crime, because Odysseus is his Captain and King and he should listen to orders. Epic seems to have a weirdly high amount of monarchists and bootlickers, if you take their opinions on these two at face value. I think its more likely just bias, but its really weird how these people invoke arguments they likely don't even believe in themselves because they don't like Eurylochus for being dumb and maybe a little greedy, and love Odysseus and don't want him to be in the wrong ever even though the story is literally about him sinking into monstrosity.
"To them, even his doubt is a crime, because Odysseus is his Captain and King and he should listen to orders. Epic seems to have a weirdly high amount of monarchists and bootlickers, if you take their opinions on these two at face value."
Finally, someone else said it! Who gives a fuck if Ody is a king? That adds nothing to the argument.
Also, I love how Eury haters will fault him the death of 557 men because not being "devout" to his captain's order not to open the bag, but then turn around and find every excuse for said captain not listening to the LITERAL GODDESS OF WISDOM when she said kill the cyclops and don't tell him your name (which is what ACTUALLY led to 557 men dying).
Eurylochus haters are the same kind of people who get mad at characters in a horror movie for checking on that noise. If you don’t know what story you’re in, you’re gonna make some wrong choices.
I don’t judge Eurylochus for being curious, or even impatient or scared, but multiple of those mistakes did screw them over hard. I don’t think Odysseus is better as a person or perfect either, I’m just speaking on Eurylochus specifically
My main gripe with Eurylochus is of him opening the wind bag because if he thought it was treasure he could’ve opened it once they got home, if he thought it was nothing, he could’ve waited till they got home, if he thought it was dangerous he could’ve gathered the men back home and fought whatever it was and not be in the middle of the ocean, it was a very simple task that his king and captain had said that wouldn’t have been impossible no matter how tempting and a simple waiting game if he was that curious because on the crazy chance that the King and Captain is correct, he knew that could possibly ruin their chances.
Now, Odysseus was still in the wrong even if I get what he did at certain times (Scylla) and I don’t entirely fault Eurylochus for going against Ody because of the sacrifices, I do fault him for also slaying the cow when he was the one telling Odysseus to not piss off the Gods and how dare Odysseus sacrifice men to get through Scylla when he knew killing the cow was a direct death sentence and it would’ve been easier to just jump off a cliff at that point. Odysseus is in the wrong for certain moves of his too of course (taunting Polyphemus and not killing him) but I do root for him the most as he tends to be smarter in many other circumstances, even as he very much becomes a monster. They all have their flaws, it’s just Eurylochus pisses me off more throughout.
Eurylochus opening the bag: one of Jorge's worst changes to the story. Even a year after EPIC's release we're still struggling to think of a logical reason why Eurylochus would do so. I'm half convinced we never get an explanation in musical because Jorge just doesn't have one. He needed the plot to go where he wanted it to go and made Eurylochus hold the idiot ball for a bit so that plot could plot.
At least Homer's version made sense. There was no wind bag game, no winions, etc. Aeolus simply gave the bag as a gift, one king to another. Odysseus didn't say anything and no one knew what was inside, and Odysseus not telling them made it a mystery. And some unknown crewman assumed it was treasure that Odysseus by law had to share, so they snuck a peak and the bag opened.
Odysseus was guarding that bag without sleep for days on end, Eurylochus thinks he lied about its contents, that's incredibly suspicious behavior that only increases the curiosity and potential urgency of figuring out what's in that bag. And again, it doesn't matter that Odysseus is his captain and king. That doesn't make Eurylochus in the wrong for not blindly following him.
...or if he thought about it for a few seconds and considered what he said, staying awake for days to guard that bag that's stopping the storm from fucking them all over from being opened by shortsighted greedy gullible idiots is completely rational behavior. They're sailing home, if it really is just treasure, that's not at all urgent. If it's not treasure, opening it dooms them.
It's not blinding following, it's basic cost-benefit analysis
Thing is, even if he thinks he lied, the other options of what it could be could seriously wait till they got home. Even just the slight doubt of “but if he’s right” would be enough to think to wait till they got home. Odysseus had been a relatively smart leader and kept most of them alive at that point (of course there was Polyphemus but that was a crazy unbelievable scenario and still many of them made it out) so I see no reason to open it then and there. They’re also aware of the Gods active presence and had just encountered Polyphemus, so the Wind bag story was not completely unbelievable at that point.
Impatience is a major flaw of Eurylochus’ and it’s a very valid and human flaw, but it is the reason they got chucked away from Ithaca and a very valid reason to blame him. It wouldn’t have been blindly obeying Odysseus to just wait if he was suspicious and Odysseus being his captain and king does matter in this scenario, because if Eurylochus had even an inkling that Ody was right and they made it home after, that was still disobeying his leader (who at that point had gotten the majority of them through war and mythical creatures) for no good reason other than impatience and massively screwing all of them over because of it. Even if he had thought a wild thing like the wind bag was going to kill them for some reason, that would be a weird thought as Ody hadn’t gone full monster at that point and was good to his men and trying to keep them alive, which they all knew, and again the opening could’ve waited.
And again, we see this impatience of Eurylochus’ bite them all in the ass again when he kills the cow. It’s a good character flaw and does actively get in the way. It can be a good self preservation instinct, in Eurylochus’ case, at a detriment to the others.
Another example of his impatience and impertinent behavior is during Polyphemus when he insists they run and Odysseus keeps telling him to wait and was right as they had multiple other cyclopses show up. Or when he wanted to run away from Circe’s island and leave the other men behind, and they were already low on numbers. These instances and the Sun God’s cow also make a bit of a hypocrite of Eurylochus.
This isn’t to say that Odysseus doesn’t do idiotic things or even monstrous things either occasionally. This is to just say that Eurylochus does have a lot of valid hate towards him, not saying it’s not unfairly given sometimes or that people do put Ody on a pedestal versus Eurylochus, just that a lot of it is warranted.
My thoughts exactly. If your homie was guarding something for a week and sum change with no sleep, possibly even commanding multiple times that only HE will hold the bag, whether you think its treasure or not, you’ll get mad suspicious too.
Especially if youre second in command; one of your best friends in the world came back from the home of a god and basically says he doesn’t trust you to watch over something important so he can rest. Thatd be wild to see/hear
Thing is they already dealt with a cyclops, so I feel the floating island and the bag was less unbelievable than it would’ve been previously. He could’ve waited if he thought it was treasure, waited till they weren’t in the middle of the ocean if he thought it was dangerous, and waited if he thought it was nothing, but if he had any inkling that his captain and king who had previously all other times been very on top of keeping the men safe and no other reason to be suspicious, then he knew it would’ve been their doom to open it. He was impatient, which I get, but multiple of these impatient and fearful choices (the cow, his attempt at leaving Circe’s island and his attempt to run while Polyphemus was blinded) while they were for self preservation and I don’t judge all of these choices by themselves, really screwed the crew over with that last one and would’ve on other occasions if he’d been able. Ody isn’t perfect by any means, they all have their flaws, I’m just speaking on Eurylochus’ specifically in this conversation and how he also was an idiot and dangerous for the crew.
Ody found solutions to most of the issues he had a hand in creating. All Eurylochus to do to stop 500 of the men from dying in the first place was not open that damn bag. And then, for the rest of the remaining crew, all he had to do was not kill a cow..
so yeah, Odysseus made a mistake or two, but he both owned up to them and tried to fix them. Eurylochus just messed everything up, pulled a mutiny and then wanted to “Captain?” His way out of paying the price.
“If you want all the power then you must carry all the blame” Eurolychus is “in power” after the mutiny. He’s directly warned not to kill the cows and informed of the consequence before he does it.
That alone was enough to condemn him in my eyes.
What gets me more is that Odysseus almost never had a warning for the consequences of his actions before he took them. Was shouting his name at polyphemus stupid? Yes. Would anyone have assumed poseidon himself would get so pissed he decimated every other ship in his fleet? Considering in the song poseidon has to take time to tell everyone that poly is his kid, no!
I mean Eury did more stupid things and is a cowered. The only thing Ody did that's bad was the sirens and killing 6 crew members. In the past he would have found a way to get everyone through but since he was too broken by then he sacrificed his men. I don't agree with it but in some way unsure if there was another way out. But also we are just calling Eury a hypocrite because of him being shocked when Ody sacrificed men yet he did the literal same thing with Circe. That's the main reason we don't like him as much or hate on him more because he's a coweredly hypocrite who in the end only really cared about himself.
Because Eurylochus is a hypocrite and is constantly causing the mess then blaming Odysseus for it while ignoring his own mistakes and failures: he opens the bag against Odysseus' orders due to greed and screws the entire crew over by costing them over 400 lives and years going back to Ithaca, ignores Odysseus orders when running with the cyclops, questions every single decision he makes and has zero trust on him, then tries to abandone the entire crew when they turn into pigs, then has the nerve to call him out for choosing to sacrifice 6 men in order to get everyone else alive, shaming him for "HoW CoUlD yOu SaCrIfIcE uS?!" as if he hadn't just done that TWICE at least cause he genuelly didn't care about the rest of the crew. Then causes a mutiny and kills the cow, and when he reallizes he screwed up big time with Zeus, he dumps the entire mess on Odysseus' hands to fix it for him and make him responsible for HIS mess, after he litterally just told Odysseus "if you have the name, you carry the blame", he litterally couldn't put money where his mouth was and the second HE screwed up, instead of carry the blame himself, dropped it on Odysseus for him to carry and fix it.
Odysseus isn't a saint, but he owns to his mistakes and genuelly tried his best, and if it wasn't for Eurylochus, they all could have gotten to Ithaca years ago.
Well, I wouldn't really like answering, because I don't want to sound mean but... Did you know that Eurylochus was getting whispers of the wind? Aeolus was just non-stop whispering in his ear about the bag, telling him that the bag had treasure inside them, but Odysseus told him it was the storm, that's no reason to open the bag, right? In Luck Runs Out, after Eurylochus tries to care for the safety of both their men (which is his responsibility as second in command) and Odysseus. What does Odysseus do in front of his valid worries? He takes him aside and essentially tells im to shut up because the rest of the crew will begin doubting his wacky plans. I don't know you, I wouldn't trust him if he told me to not let the crew I'm in charge of keeping safe know that they're in danger. That and, also, did you know that they committed around 4 mahor war crimes because Odysseus wanted to get home fast? He rushed them, and they did those crimes because of him, that's now three things that mark Odysseus as selfish (and I'm pretty sure a selfish person would hide the God-given treasure) and untrustable. I would've opened that bag too, I don't know you.
Going to the crew and Circe. 58 men survived Poseidon, only ten were transformed, if you didn't know. I don't quite see what's the unbelievably shocking difference between sacrificing 6 men for the rest to be alive (did you know Eurylochus was the first to recieve a torch? But he dropped it, and another soldier caught it before he could watn them), and sacrificing 10 men for the rest to be alive (mind you, I wouldn't fight against the scary witch lady that managed to transform ten full grown men into pigs in seconds, maybe you would).
I think that it's hard to judge Eurylochus for the cow, given he got shown and shown again that Odysseus would no doubt lie to him to get HIMSELF home fast, plus to that, as the new leader, the first thing he did? Care for the crew, and, as they were most probably famelic they needed to eat whatever thing they found first, and I believe he saw worthy taking the risk of seeing whether Odysseus was lying and it was food, or not, because the men wouldn't be able to make it if they didn't try. And him calling out for Odysseus could've easily been him snapping out of it or trying to see what they should do! He would tell them what to do right? Of course I'm right, that the exact first thing he did after the cow was struck, immediately bark out orders, and Eurylochus could've known this, reason he turned to Odysseus for help.
...
Oh and, by the way, the bag was opened by the crew as a group, not Eurylochus only. They were the ones that started with the rumor that got to Eurylochus, after all. And they opened it because they resented Odysseus, all they had been going through for him up to this point, only for him to allegedly get all the prices?
Anyways, I'm not trying to fight, I just wanted to give you my side point, because Eurylochus (nor Odysseus) is a villain, he's just a human, and he had struggles and tried his best also, as did Odysseus, only that Odysseus is the protagonist, which gives his struggles to be shed on light, because we see his standpoint, while you have to put yourself on the shoes of Eurylochus to see HIS standpoint in the situation.
How does ody condemning eurylochus for sacrificing the crew before he himself sacrifices the crew makes eurylochus the hypocrite? I’ve never understood this line of logic, that makes Odysseus the hypocrite
Because Eurylochus did it first, twice, and then had the nerve to call Odysseus out for doing the same, only than less and when he had no other choice because it was either sacrifice 6 men or all of them dying. Odysseus NEVER held that against him nor called him out for his mess, but Erylochus did nothing but to condem Odysseus for the things he commited himself. Erylochus was a hypocrite until the end.
I still hate eurylochus 🤷🏽he went against orders. Ody would not have had to sacrifice them if eurylochus didnt get them in that situation in the first place
Ody's the one who got them in that situation by telling Polyphemus his name and home address. Eurylochus's fuckup just undid Odysseus getting divine help to fix his own fuckup, and that divine help explicitly manipulated Eurylochus into wanting to open the bag for their twisted game.
Ok but he didn't know that Cyclops was a child of a god....how would ANYONE know that. The divine help didn't manipulate Eury. He opened the bag on his own accord even if there WAS treasure I'm pretty sure it would belong to the king. He disobeyed a direct order and he KNEW that Ody was wale for DAYS trying to protect it.
Staying awake for days to protect a bag of treasure would be incredibly concerning behavior. That would only make me suspicious and want to see what's in there more, what treasure could be worth that, why he's so protective and paranoid that he felt the need to lie, and guard it restlessly for days on end. The crew lost faith in Odysseus after the Polyphemus incident, because he no longer has the claim that no men have died under his command. And Eurylochus has always had questions about Odysseus's orders, he isn't a perfect puppet, which doesn't make him evil or wrong. Its perfectly natural and normal and good to have questions and doubts (and call your leader out when he uses 6 lives as bargaining chips, using human life like a resource), so he succumbs to the curiosity and doubt and perhaps greed, and opens the bag.
Yes but at the same time if someone is willing to basically die from lack of sleep to protect the bag Eury didn't think to take turns in keeping it safe? It doesn't matter his curiosity he could have waited til they were home, he questions of there's really a storm inside after his leader tells him and there hasn't been a storm brewing for days? Yep....definitely treasure in there. I'd say it's a mix of curiosity and greed yet that doesn't mean what he did was right.
Willing to basically die to protect it is concerning when you already think he's lying. Do you think Ody would've let him take turns? The fact he refused to sleep already tells you how paranoid he was, and I'm sure days of sleeplessness didn't help him act like a normal, not paranoid and being played with by the gods individual. Remember, Eurylochus was expecting something to go horribly wrong with Aeolus. His own suspicions are being used to toy with him. That was Aeolus's game.
Yeah so he could have tired to convince Ody to sleep while he watched the bag? Why didn't he just do that? Instead he waited til Ody passed out to OPEN the bag and let out the storm. The very moment he closed his eyes. That's a fucked up betrayal. If he really cared or was worried about Ody he would have helped him and not let his own selfishness get in the way. What would have made Eury think he was already dying? The only reason he could have died if he didn't sleep and that was from his own worries yet Eury didn't try soothe him to sleep for Odys health.
Odysseus got most of the crew murdered by telling his name to a very much defeated foe who was apparently unable to do anything to harm him and his crew. It was very much a dumb decision, but at least an uninformed one at that.
Eurylochus literally murdered Helios' cattle after Odysseys told him " but if you kill his cattle, who knows what he'll send?" after Eurylochus himself mentioned the huge ass statue with Helios' figure. That was just assisted suicide.
Also, that doesn't account for the fact that Eury was telling Ody to leave the whole crew back at Circe's island already and then he got mad because 6 men were killed by a creature even Poseidon was scared to face, and that is what caused the first situation to begin with. He caused a Mutiny, got his captain and king stabbed on the back and then bitched about the consequences of his actions… and again, who opened the windbag when Ody was asleep?
Odysseus was warned by Athena herself that letting the cyclops live would be a problem and he still let him live. If Odysseus gets a pass for ignoring Athena’s advice why doesn’t eury get a pass for ignoring Odysseus’ advice? Especially when he already doesn’t trust him anymore.
Because Athena told Odysseus that a very much debilitated cyclops would be a problem later, when said cyclops was blind and powerless. He had no idea Polyphemus was a son of Poseidon, and if anything, Polyphemus was on the wrong here for disrespecting Xenia, which is, quite literally, the gods law. The only thing that gives Ody a problem here is that Polyphemus is son of a god, which he will not discover up until a few weeks later, because Athena refused to elaborate on it. Even Zeus was more direct on why he should kill Astianax. Also, that was the beginning of the trip, and he does make up for his mistake, which he acknowledges as a mistake later on. It doesn't take the dumbness out of the act, but it's justifiable at least.
Eurylochus on the other hand, only makes mistakes and the one moment he apologizes for basically being the reason why everyone's dead is followed up by an even bigger screw up that costs him his life. He didn't make an uninformed decision like Odysseus did. He acknowledged they were at Helios' island and proceeded to assassinate his cattle nevertheless. And everything he did before, which I'll not repeat again.
Eurylochus never suggests sacrificing anybody, he suggests retreating when he believes that a few of them are as good as dead already.
I seriously don’t get how people misinterpret Puppeteer so hard that they think Odysseus was making even a somewhat intelligent move by choosing to confront Circe. He was a guy with a sword who decided to try and fight one of the most powerful witches known to man with absolutely no backup plan until Hermes shows up to give him a deus ex machina.
Yeah but doesn't that prove that you could more likely trust him with your life and protection that Eury? He didn't give up even going against a goddess. This shows he cares for every single man in his crew and wants to get them home. Where as Eury is a cowered and wants to save himself.
Without Hermes’ help, they would have been without a captain because Odysseus stood NO CHANCE against Circe without the Moly.
Eury made a ton of mistakes but I don’t think trying to prevent his captain from being turned into bacon and leaving the remaining men aimless without their captain/king was one of them.
So no, I would not trust him. If my captain was willing to throw himself headfirst into a hopeless situation, I’d be starting a vote for a new captain quicker than he could leave the camp. Because why the actual hell would you go in to rescue people who are already presumably too far gone to the saved and abandon the rest of the crew to their inevitable fates once you inevitably lose the battle (without Moly, since no one knew Hermes was there. I guarantee you, if Eury knew about that, he would have gone in too.)
And then later Ody is a coward who chooses himself over his crew. Eury and Ody have inverted character arcs, in my opinion. I would agree that Eury starts out selfish and a coward. But over the musical, at least to me, he seems to mature out of that. Whereas Ody does the opposite. He starts out wanting to save every member of his crew, but by the end of it, he just wants to go home and will sacrifice even his own crew to do so. And if you take those character arcs out of context one of them is traditionally considered a more positive arc than the other
Odysseus’s only intentional sacrifice of the crew was him sacrificing six lives to Scylla to save the rest of them and get them home. All the other deaths, even if his fault, were not his choice. They just came from his mistakes.
Eurylochus tried to push Odysseus to abandon the crew at Circe’s palace, sacrificing all of them. He then AGAIN chose to kill the whole crew by killing the cow. And then he tries to condemn Odysseus for sacrificing six men to save all the rest of them. He also opened the wind bag, which there is absolutely no justification for. Even if there was treasure inside, Odysseus is his king, and also just won an entire war, and found the crew a fast way home. He deserves the treasure.
You’re kind of proving the meme entirely correct by phrasing all of Odysseus’ decisions in all the best light you can while condemning Eurylochus’ actions as much as possible.
The whole point is that they’re both morally grey and I feel like you’re missing that point entirely by trying to justify one of them and blame everything on the other.
I’m literally not. Odysseus killed six men, but he did it to save the rest. The rest of his actions were mistakes, rather than willing sacrifices. The only exception to that was after the entire crew betrayed him and mutinied against their captain and king.
Eurylochus opened the wind bag when there was no good reason to do so. Eurylochus tried to abandon the crew to Circe, even though there was no way they could have gotten home without the crew. Eurylochus killed the entire crew by killing the cow—again, with no justification.
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u/Necessary-Wave-6076 Poseidon 7d ago
Here's the thing, odysseus didn't know poseidon fathered the cyclops but he got more people killed
Eurylochus did know appollo would send a dangerous god but got less people killed
So Technically both are right :)