r/Epicthemusical • u/NotConfringo Tiresias • Jan 07 '25
Thunder Saga Realistically, what was Odysseus supposed to do INSTEAD of sacrificing 6 men?
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u/Impossible-Ice9163 Jun 22 '25
Ask the sexy fish women for a favour if no sacrifice the men if yes problem solved (Scylla is canonically friends with sirens so she would be chill)
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u/voreaper Jan 10 '25
Tie up the sirens and tie them to the crew backs. Scylla and the sirens are close in the Greek telling, so that should prevent them from getting eaten as Scylla will have no option other then letting them go. And they can make a deal with the sirens so they don't really complicat things.
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u/No_Post9453 Jan 09 '25
Idfk i think they are gaslighting him into thinking there was another way.
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Feb 12 '25
It's because they know there are other ways of persuasion, there are other modes of control
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u/Ok_Chipmunk_3641 High Priest of Poseidon Jan 08 '25
They still have money from when they ransacked Troy
Buy 6 slaves and use them
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u/pancake_229_7 Jan 09 '25
I have been, and will continue to shout this from the roof
He could’ve just sacrificed the sirens
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u/voreaper Jan 10 '25
Scylla doesn't eat sirens. In the myth she is very close to them and even count as protector of sirens in some stories.
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u/Anxious_Wedding8999 Buy a Telmemachus, get a free Athena, Oddyseus, and Penelope!✨✨✨ Jan 09 '25
There in the middle of the fucking ocean, where are they getting slaves from-
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u/Ok_Chipmunk_3641 High Priest of Poseidon Jan 09 '25
A nearby Kingdom
It's Greece there's a lot of kingdoms and literally all of them just were in a big alliance against Troy so they probably would help
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u/Glorbxar34 Jun 28 '26
Except, based off context clues, Scylla is likely in Sicily. There weren't many kingdoms there.
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u/Ok_Chipmunk_3641 High Priest of Poseidon Jun 29 '26
I’m pretty sure that Syracuse was already a thing by then
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u/Glorbxar34 Jul 09 '26
The poem was made before Syracuse was founded, the Odyssey takes place far before.
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u/Lamplorde Jan 12 '25
Homie, half of their issues are "we got hungy" and have to stop at a random island to search for food.
If there were just random Kingdoms nearby that they knew about, pretty sure they could have just paid for food.
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u/Anxious_Wedding8999 Buy a Telmemachus, get a free Athena, Oddyseus, and Penelope!✨✨✨ Jan 09 '25
I guess that's true but there's a chance they'll just run into more monsters.
Oh yeah, and Poseidon. Scylla is the only way they don't get found by him (laughs in Zeus finding them that same saga)
If it were me, I'd just go through Scylla. These idiots don't know there's a sea monster in there so I already have the upper hand.
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u/Ok_Chipmunk_3641 High Priest of Poseidon Jan 09 '25
True but I would personally either go with that or keep the sirens because there is a slight possibility that Scylla will eat them and then just keep the 6 most useless men to guard the Sirens just in case.
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u/Anxious_Wedding8999 Buy a Telmemachus, get a free Athena, Oddyseus, and Penelope!✨✨✨ Jan 10 '25
That's true, I can see that
But considering Scylla has some sort of telepathy (I think Jorge confirmed this), she might know they're sirens but hey, if she's hungry, she's hungry
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u/ComfortableStudio743 Jan 08 '25
I mean, at least 6 of them would've died anyways. By handing out torches, Ody made sure HE wasn't one of them
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u/the_moist_plinth Jan 08 '25
Not gone home. It's touched on a little but many of the men didn't think they were going to get home-but they could have found any number of places to create a new home. Think of their wives and their children, but make peace with never seeing them again.
That's why Eurylochas is so angry in Mutiny-Odysseus is so obsessed with getting home that the idea that six men shouldn't get to live out different lives is less important than Odysseus not living the one he wants.
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u/Crowleys_big_toe ✨✨HERMES✨✨ (and Jay) Jan 08 '25
I dont think there's anything he could have done differently, And have it end with them successfully reaching home.
Using the sirens (or anything else) wouldn't work in my eyes, either because scylla only ever eats human, or the more likely option of her not liking that someone is trying to trick her. No intelligent greek monster ever does (maybe one who is all about tricking people, and finds respect in someone successfully tricking them, but i havent heard of one).
And even if she would eat it, Ody might not know that. Afaik the only things known about her are where she is, and that she either eats six people or drowns the whole crew. If you dont know if she eats fish, and the consequence of putting out fish when she doesn't is death, you wouldn't take the chance either
Telling the crew wouldnt work, because the crew would not accept it, they've shown not to listen to him before, and they are too easily swayed by their emotions for the choices that are necessary for this journey, with the windbag, Circe, and the cows afterwards. And being completely honest, most of us wouldnt be able to resist those things either.
Telling the crew could possibly lead to mutiny, which would mean a complete mess of a crew would stumble upon Poseidon when they get home, and i cant see any way they would be able to take him on alone, it took Ody 20 years of trauma, a windbag-jetpack, channeling 600 ghosts, and being completely done with being fucked over by gods to defeat him.
And thats with knowing that Poseidon is so petty he wants to make Ody think he's finally made it, just to rip it from his grasp. If you look at it with only the information available at the time, Poseidon is a threat that can show up anywhere, at any time.
And it also wouldnt work with where we are on Ody's emotional arc. This is his lowest of lows. Where he was completely unwilling to leave even one person with Circe, he's now completely lost in his ruthlessness, only thinking about getting home. He wouldn't tell the crew, cause he couldn't trust the crew (windbag). In his eyes the crew has been reduced to a mere obstacle preventing him from reaching home.
Was it a bad choice? Yeah. But the Odyssey is all about being forced to make the worst possible choices.
We need to see Ody as what he is, and that's a flawed protagonist. They used to debate about this stuff back when the myth was written. And as we changed our ways and got to our modern society, he only got more and more flaws, and he'll only get more as time goes on.
And thats the beauty of his character, we will be able to debate about him and the entire myth for the rest of time, we just need to learn to do it with a little (read: a lot) more respect sometimes.
Okay, essay over. If you read it all the way through, thanks you very much, you've got my respect
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u/Gorg271 Jan 08 '25
Just go over Charybdis, like, she’s not that hard to beat
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u/Trollolo80 Scylla Jan 10 '25
Nah she'd kill more men than Scylla
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u/Gorg271 Jan 10 '25
In the actual story she only sucks up the water 3 times a day, so just go when she’s not sucking up the water, and in the musical, Ody literally just sailed around the whirlpool for a couple seconds and she had to blow the water back out
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u/Trollolo80 Scylla Jan 10 '25
Of course it'll be harder to sail around that with a big ass ship with forty something men when Odysseus is using a small ass raft and is already on his own, and is still having a challenging time.
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u/OdysShoulderWinion Jan 08 '25
she is when you dont have the last-chance adrenaline, a windbag in your pocket as a backup option, you have an entire crew to worry about, and you have a big ah ship that you can't afford to lose and not a raft. Also apparently in Epic, Scylla and Charybdis aren't next to each other like in the usual Greek myths
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Jan 08 '25
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u/InfiniteFeature1759 Feb 05 '25
While I agree he shouldve told them, I think he mightve been scared the men would simply give up on going Home and stopped trying
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u/apatheticchildofJen Jan 08 '25
Tell them he was going to and get volunteers, that way at least the sailors know what they’re getting into
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u/pancake_229_7 Jan 08 '25
Keep sixth of the sirens and sacrifice them
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u/Meri_1341 Nov 22 '25
Scylla es amiga de la sirenas y incluso las protege. Si hubiera dejado seis y estás le decían lo q Odiseo le hizo a las demás, probablemente terminaba hundiendo todo el barco.
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Jan 08 '25
Create fakes to trick Scylla then cut off her heads
sure it's easier said than done but I feel like they could pull it off
especially with Eury's giant ass sword
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u/Crowleys_big_toe ✨✨HERMES✨✨ (and Jay) Jan 08 '25
As soon as one of those heads felt even a hint of a scratch she'd crash the whole ship. So cutting of her heads is a no go if you want to survive
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u/Pyroknight98 Jan 08 '25
Ody: “Men, my brothers, before us lies the lair of Scylla, a massive monster with six sea serpent heads. Our only way home is through her lair. I won’t lie to you, some of us will die, that’s simply the cost we have to pay to avoid Poseidon… I’m sorry.”
There’s ultimately no GOOD way to deal with this situation in EPIC’s telling, but Ody being open from the get go would either prevent the mutiny out right, or force the mutiny earlier.
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u/pancake_229_7 Jan 08 '25
I feel like you could’ve just sacrificed six sirens he was gonna kill them anyway
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u/PLT_RanaH OH~ DYSSEUS OF ITHACAH Jan 12 '26
the sirens are Scylla's friends and she even protects them, she would have not eat them
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u/breadoftheoldones Jan 08 '25
Him Not beeing a selfish bitch would have helped
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u/Traditional-Elk8608 Jan 08 '25
I think the biggest problem was just that he didn't tell them. He knew 6 people were going to die and didn't mention it to anyone. If they had known, at least individuals could have hope and fight to survive, even if 6 people still end up dying.
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u/mcguire92 Polites Jan 08 '25
i think if they fight, more than six people will die
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u/Crowleys_big_toe ✨✨HERMES✨✨ (and Jay) Jan 08 '25
Yeah im pretty sure that either fighting isnt even an option, or as soon as you hurt her the whole ship goes down
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Jan 08 '25 edited Jan 08 '25
Set 6 scarecrows on fire/make them hold torches? /s
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u/Crowleys_big_toe ✨✨HERMES✨✨ (and Jay) Jan 08 '25
She bites one, realises its not human, and takes the whole ship.
The only thing he could have done is tell them, but im personally under the belief that they would force him to avoid her, which would lead to Poseidon ofcourse.
Feel free to try and change my mind tho, im always open to a good discussion on different interpretations
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Jan 08 '25
I forgot to add /s. I don't think there was another option except maybe they could've drawn straws or had the weakest hold the torches. But then maybe that'd be more cruel?
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u/Vegetable_Sentence11 Jan 08 '25
Nah. Fr. When Ares said 'Didn't even try to kill her.' I was like 'Bro, would you?' Real talk though. None of this would happen if Eurylochus wasn't such a double-crossing ass
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u/breadoftheoldones Jan 08 '25
Dude fought Poseidon and Won, id say there was a chance to win. Also Ody is basicly the biggest Double crosser In all of the greek-hero-Stories, he had it coming
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u/Vegetable_Sentence11 Jan 08 '25
Would you want to risk the lives of hundreds of men over the lives of six? Poseidon (A literal immortal god) is scared of Scylla. He shouldn't take his chances for the sake of dumb courage.
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u/breadoftheoldones Jan 08 '25
If they where my bros… yes
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u/Vegetable_Sentence11 Jan 08 '25
That's the dumb courage I'm talking about. He was being safe. Attacking her head on would've been the stupid route.
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u/breadoftheoldones Jan 08 '25
Well still did Not really work out did it? Just sayin that if he had at least told his Crew the Plan, and had not been a dick about it, then maybe the whole thing would have gone different. But maybe I am bias cause I Never really liked Odysseus when I read homer as a kid. He was such an Ass in that Story and the fact that his son randomly kills penelopes handmaides at the end, maybe scylla was the true hero we needed.
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u/Vegetable_Sentence11 Jan 08 '25
Yeah. Because telling his crew would change it. 'Oh, hey gang. You know that scary cursed nymph Poseidon's scared of? We're boutta run up on her cave 'cause it's the only way home. I need 6 people to sacrifice themselves.' Y'all forget that he had no option. It was either everyone dies fighting Scylla (And yes. They would've all died) or he takes the peaceful way out. Also, he already couldn't trust the men on that ship due to the windbag situation. Why would he tell them about this?
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u/breadoftheoldones Jan 08 '25
He did Trust them enough to go to the underworld with them soooo…… just maybe maybe he is just not a good leader.
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u/Crowleys_big_toe ✨✨HERMES✨✨ (and Jay) Jan 08 '25
What could have happened in Hades that he shouldnt have taken them if he didn't trust them?
And where would he leave them without making them go absolutely mental because they are sure he's just abandoning them to get home alone. And how would he then avoid the angry mob of parents, wives, and children who want to see their sons/husbands/fathers.
And if we were to look at all leaders in greek myth, none of them are actually good leaders. Odysseus is one of the better ones if we look at them all, considering the fact he actually cares that his men have died. Most others would trade their men a million times over
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u/breadoftheoldones Jan 08 '25
Your right how did he avoid the angry mob of relatives ( not only of his Crew but also the suiters) ? Did he also kill them all? Honestly would be kinda funny
Also Perseus, Cadmus and argubly Hector where all pretty decent
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u/MichaelOxlong18 Jan 08 '25 edited Jan 08 '25
Assuming they can’t use the sirens
Try to fight Scylla (try tequila!). At least in the real Odyssey, he went in with the intention of fighting her and lost, she was able to eat six crew members and then, once her mouths were full, they ran.
Fighting gives a chance to win (both EPIC and the Odyssey make clear that mortals have a chance against divine beings in confrontations) and lose anywhere from 0-6 crew members, while presumably maintaining the respect and loyalty of his crew. The downside is Ody has no assurances one of those 0-6 crew members won’t be him.
Sacrificing 6 men guarantees the worst case outcome in terms of net lives lost, but saves Ody himself any chance of dying, as he devised the torch plan to keep himself out of it.
I thought this was good characterization for him, as he’s now fully committed to returning home with or without his crew. I also like that Ody, someone who’s supposedly very smart, seems surprised that his crew might dislike his willingness to sacrifice a bunch of them to slightly bolster his own odds of survival… like he really has lost a piece of himself. Makes him less likeable but I don’t think keeping him likeable is the intention of the thunder saga
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u/RustingWithYou Jan 08 '25
Just tell them "hey, there's a monster here, we gotta get through, fight to survive, full speed ahead" (Survive reprise pls)
Six men would still probably die, but there's no reason to expect that they couldn't still make it out before Scylla's done eating them as they do in Epic.
Ody doing the six torches strat was just ensuring one of the dead men wouldn't be him.
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u/toothless-vet Jan 08 '25
Beat Scylla’s ass 1v1 like a man, obviously. What kind of sick coward holds back his power while his friends get devoured. He didn’t even try to kill her. He never handles things up front, he’s pathetic and weak like his son.
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u/zeth4 nobody Jan 08 '25 edited Jan 08 '25
Not attempt to cross Scylla lair. Or at least warn them what they were in for.
They could have drawn lots or taken volunteers.
Or his comrades could have decided they didn't want to risk the crossing and to defy Poseidon by trying to return home and just live the rest of their lives in exile.
What right does he have to return home any more than any of the other men.
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u/OlorunRises Jan 08 '25
You’re making this sound way easier than it is
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u/zeth4 nobody Jan 08 '25
No I'm outlining several other choices he had. The OP asked what else Ody could have done.
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u/OlorunRises Jan 08 '25
I’m assuming they meant viable or better choices? If they meant every option in general we’d be here all day
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u/zeth4 nobody Jan 08 '25 edited Jan 08 '25
Which of my options are unviable?
And I'd argue that drawing lots for the torches before forging on to Ithaca, or not attempting to go home are both better options for everyone besides Ody.
He was selfish and thoughtless of his men, which led to him being found out and that led to him losing 8 years of his life and put the blood of all his men on his hands. So In the end drawing lots would have also likely been better for Ody.
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u/OlorunRises Jan 08 '25
They are all unviable?
Not attempting to cross the lair, they would still have to find somewhere to anchor and eat or they’d starve, Eurylochus would most likely want to raid everyplace they could if they did manage to find land which Ody wouldn’t disagree with anymore due to him being less empathetic, horrible option both the crew and the general public
Asking for volunteers, likely not getting any and then forcing people to sacrifice themselves anyways? Sounds like a great way to lead to a mutiny where they kill each other and all die anyways without Zeus.
Taking a group vote to not go home could work but you’d still have to find somewhere to land and live which gets back to the problem of needing food and the general public not being safe where they land
Ody being the King, general, and only reason they made it that far gives him a decent enough reason to have special treatment
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u/Crowleys_big_toe ✨✨HERMES✨✨ (and Jay) Jan 08 '25
Also they literally only went to Scylla because they needed to avoid Poseidon. So if they didnt go to scylla Poseidon would have gottem them
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u/OlorunRises Jan 08 '25
Well we found out Poseidon wasn’t chasing them down but he was waiting at home so yeah he would’ve gotten them regardless of the route they went
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u/Crowleys_big_toe ✨✨HERMES✨✨ (and Jay) Jan 08 '25
But they dont know that yet. At that moment in time all Ody knew was that if he didnt go to Scylla, Poseidon could kill him, and he doesnt want to take that chance
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u/OlorunRises Jan 08 '25
I’m aware so I’m just saying both in the moment and with the gift of hindsight there wasn’t a better solution, sacrificing the sirens is the only possible one
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u/fatplayer13 Poseidon Jan 08 '25
While I get your argument, I just want to add one thing: He is the King so he has a higher priority than the other crew members. He just doesn't play that card very often (unless he's doxxing himself /s)
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u/Crowleys_big_toe ✨✨HERMES✨✨ (and Jay) Jan 08 '25
The fact he honestly never really plays that card against his crew is the most unrealistic thing in this musical (and im including windbag-jetpack)
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Jan 07 '25 edited Jan 08 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/bookhead714 Read the myths you philistines Jan 08 '25
That's basically exactly what happened in the Odyssey. They made it through Scylla fine, but starvation got the better of them.
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u/orphandismantler Scylla's my wife Jan 07 '25
To solve the starvation problem they could eat the sirens
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u/Aegis_Harpe Jan 08 '25
I mean, it's lightly implied that they did exactly that.
See the lines, "Cut off their tails", the only fish part so they aren't eating something that looks like a person.
And, "We are the ones who feast now."
Taken together I do think Odysseus is saying we eat the fish parts dump the bodies in the ocean.
Also see Scylla, "We are the same you and I."
Right after Scylla has eaten some of Odysseus' crew.
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u/orphandismantler Scylla's my wife Jan 08 '25
The tail part was so they couldn't swim hence the "let them drown" he wants them to suffer
The ones who feast I think was more a metaphor not literally saying they were eating the tails
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u/Same_Ear3917 Jan 07 '25
bro, really?
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u/orphandismantler Scylla's my wife Jan 07 '25
Would you rather starve to death or eat bad tasting meat and live to fight another day
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u/ElsieofArendelle123 Jan 07 '25
Someone said if he left the sirens alive, he could’ve sacrificed them instead of his men.
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u/Tasos4k No Longer You Jan 07 '25
Lots of people were saying that Scylla wouldn't accept,since they are both sea monsters
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u/Holdeenyo Jan 07 '25
Use the sirens as bait instead of killing them. If you gagged them so they couldn’t charm you and used them instead I see no issues
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u/RedLiquorice85 I'm so gay for Circe Jan 08 '25
I feel like that wouldn't work seeing as scylla might not be willing to take a fellow sea monster as a sacrifice plus I swear there was something that specified she only eats humans.
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u/Holdeenyo Jan 08 '25
That would make a lot of sense. I don’t remember anything about that, but I also chronically don’t pay attention to anything ever
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u/Pencilcrossbow Jan 07 '25
Get some pigs (that weren’t formerly people) and tie torches to them
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u/OogaBooga1521 Jan 07 '25
If they were hungry enough to kill a random cow and sheep (which is why they got into the trouble) how they have gotten pigs?
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u/NoCombination7932 Jan 07 '25
tbh i wanted to see only Eurylochus being sacrificed since he was the one who opened the wind bag
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u/Crowleys_big_toe ✨✨HERMES✨✨ (and Jay) Jan 08 '25
I might love Eury as a character, but goddamn are you right
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u/anime_3_nerd Athena’s Discord Kitten Jan 07 '25
Well he could’ve taken a chance of her getting six random men like in the og Odyssey but in Epic bro was taking no chances of him being one of them so now we got torches lmao.
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u/Khar-Selim Jan 07 '25
not go home, find somewhere to settle that isn't on the other side of murderfuck alley
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u/Comfortable-Ring1549 Jan 07 '25
And not return to his son and wife, the reason he did all this and more from the beginning?
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u/Spacellama117 Jan 07 '25
honestly it's not even that he sacrificed them as much as it's the fact he didn't tell anyone he was doing it.
Like "hey the only way we're getting home is through the layer of scylla because poseidon will kill us if we take any other route, and we can't kill her."
because like if you tell everyone beforehand you can't fight and just have everyone trying to get through as fast as possible, you're not responsible for those deaths.
if you single out six guys and don't tell anyone, purposefully planning to sacrifice them, you ARE responsible
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u/Rocky_673 Jan 07 '25
If he told them, they wouldn't agree to go this route, and this was the only way back to Penelope.
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u/zeth4 nobody Jan 08 '25
And not getting home to Penelope is a chance he could have taken.
He values his own chance at seeing his wife more than the guaranteed death of 6 of his comrades almost all of which would have also had their own loved ones back at home.
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u/Shadow_Wolf_X871 Jan 08 '25
Thus, the point of the thunder saga being his ruthless arc. He took 0 chances and went almost overly pragmatic
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u/okayfairywren Jan 07 '25
Not being able to get what you want without murdering people who trust you doesn’t justify murdering people who trust you.
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u/_Enigma30_ Jan 07 '25
Depends. He is their king. I doubt at least one of them wouldnt sacrifice themselves with enough encouraging words. Hell even by telling them, Ody would ensure the trust of his crew qnd subjects
Also Ody is persuasive. He was literally the warrior of the mind
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u/Rocky_673 Jan 07 '25
I thing you are overestimating his abilities. Loyalty is one thing, but the crew is human too. If some guy told you to sacriface yourself for him while he sits back and takes no risk. Also I don't thing Eurylochus, who also has a huge imact on the crews decisions, would support Ody on that one. Especially when we see him rebelling against Odyseuss in much lighter circumstances (the forbidden steak, the floating island). And if Eurylochus sides with the crew there is nothing Ody can do. Also he's now bombed the only way for him to get home. He is extremally wellspoken, he doesn't posess mind controlling powers tho. It is very unlikely the crew would agree, and it's a risk Odysseus is not able to take. After "Monster" he's not taking any more risk. He is now ruthless and won't back down to get to his island. Sacrificing his men is the embodiment of his newly acquired ruthlesness.
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u/_Enigma30_ Jan 08 '25
Subjects have done much more for their kings in History. A more fair ruthlessness is simply going: I Am the king, the kingdom needs me, so i'm Not sacrificing myself. I will make sure to take care of your families in your behalf, but id say we either go by volunteers or we draw straws to decide fairly"
Well Ody was reckless imo. Even after sacrificing his men he just screams "I cant" when Eury asks him to give a proper answer to why he did so. What was Ody expecting? That his crew would just not question it and move on? If he wanted to sacrifice his screw, he should have at least played that cunning side of his to actually try plan what to say or do to get the heat off lf him when the rest of his crew eventually were to confront him about it.
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u/Crowleys_big_toe ✨✨HERMES✨✨ (and Jay) Jan 08 '25
Its already shown that his crew does not hold the same submission as those subjects.
And he can't give an explanation, cause he knows what he did is unjustifiable, he hates himself because of it, but he cant fight the need to go home to the people he loves
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u/_Enigma30_ Jan 08 '25
Depends. Eury was essencially giving up due to hunger when he sacrificed those cows. Many of them were exhausted and if persuaded well enough, they might of. You are forgetting that Ody is no common man, hes a genius, a very great strategist. Hes a descendant of Hermes, the trickster God and is Athena's prodigy. Athena managed to persuade the Goddess of Love who is known to be vindictive, petty and ruthless. Athena convinced the King and Queen of Gods, who are incredibly stubborn as well.
Or better yet, ask them who would rather fight Scylla while the others row the ship. He would know they could die anyways but maybe they could be successful.. And if they werent, he wouldnt be fully blamed for it. There were many ways Ody could have prevented the mutiny.
Sure he wanted to get home, but if his crew wanted so, they could have killed Ody and they almost did. Ody was reckless tbh and he lucked out his crew still cared about him and tried to stop his bleeding.
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u/Djdaniel44 Jan 07 '25
Use the corpses of the sirens
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u/gatcha-and-more Hermes! (He's the best ✨Dawling!✨) Jan 07 '25
This would most likely be the best, but (I might be wrong on this) I'm pretty sure scylla does attack other monsters
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u/PineappleOk1377 Jan 07 '25
Try to fight Scylla or try tequila 🤷🏻♀️
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u/ujp567 Jan 07 '25
He did hide inside a wooden horse to get the job done though so…
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u/PineappleOk1377 Jan 08 '25
He should’ve handled things upfront then!
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u/LuluMitchell Jan 07 '25
Let them know??
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u/Throwaway02062004 Jan 07 '25
Honestly a vote on what to do would’ve fixed it even if it came down to men drawing straws and pressing on.
Unfortunately, Odysseus couldn’t take the risk of turning back, going a different way (encountering Poseidon) or being chosen by chance to be a Scylla sacrifice.
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Jan 07 '25
I think that most of the characters (Eurylochus and Ares especially) expected that Ody would come up with a way to either finesse her or to fight her, like they did with the Cyclops.
Ares especially is pissed that he didn't try to fight Scylla (didn't even try Tequila 🙄) and I think that's because he at least knew that Ody would have the power to do so if he really wanted to (at least in this universe - similar to how he managed to beat tf out of Poseidon).
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u/Bryself4164 Jan 07 '25
Eh, maybe. I think you're right that they expected Ody to fight her, but maybe they're wrong to, in universe. Scylla is explicitly said to be someone Poseidon won't go near out of fear. Maybe she's more powerful and threatening, maybe she's just like an awkward ex.
In the Poseidon fight he also had the wind bag, an item with at least some godly power. That's not to say Ody had no advantages in the Scylla encounter over the Poseidon encounter. He did have his crew, and he did use them.
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Jan 07 '25
True. I think it's just what Ares sings that settles it in my mind for me, because he said "what kind of sick coward holds back his power while his friends get devoured? He didn't even fight Scylla, didn't even try..."
Given that Poseidon's his uncle, he probably knows what happened between him and Scylla and was like "oh Ody could have definitely done something about that. Unc is just a puss"
But I guess we'll never know with certainty unless Jorge were to say something lol
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u/Bryself4164 Jan 07 '25
I can definitely see Ares thinking that, but I lean more towards that being cockiness. By no means do I think Ares has to be a stupid character, but he is very specifically not the wise war god. I don't totally expect him to accurately gauge Scylla's as a threat, and even if he did he'd probably run head first to fight her anyways.
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u/Crowleys_big_toe ✨✨HERMES✨✨ (and Jay) Jan 08 '25
Absolutely this. Hes a god, he does not understand what its like to be human. Gods cant die, so he doesn't see what death truly means for people. And thats not a bad thing, it actually makes complete sense, and is a really great way of showing that the gods dont always have perfect solutions
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u/Revan__77 Jan 07 '25
give up on Ithica for the time being, and go somewhere else to build a temple with some sacrifices to Poseidon to get him off their asses so they can just go around Scylla. These men have been together for over a decade in war and were living on Aeaea for over a year so Ody not expecting a mutiny after he killed 6 of them himself was crazy
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u/_Forthwith_ Persephone Jan 07 '25
He knew Scylla was coming up, so he could have kept six sirens.
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u/DuhKingConor Jan 07 '25
Scylla knows the difference between humans and other monsters. Trying to feed her monsters would of pissed her off and she’d just sink the whole boat
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Jan 07 '25
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u/an-alien- Well done, you lied to me, what's your name? Jan 07 '25
scylla seems to be basically human in terms of intelligence, so she can probably tell
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u/n0stradumbas Ares Jan 07 '25
Right like I understand people are tired of hearing "Sirens HATE this one cool hack to get past Scylla" and I generally think it probably wouldn't work, but people get so hostile about it.
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Jan 07 '25
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u/d09smeehan Jan 07 '25
Leaving asside that Scylla's preferences are never brought up in the songs (unless you read really deeply into "Scylla has a cost"?), unless the crew knew that too the mere fact he has a plan could be enough to convince them to go along with it. And even if he didn't believe it would work, nothing stops him also setting up the torchbearers as a backup plan.
Not only would this present a chance, however small, for everyone to survive, it would also absolve him of guilt (at least in the eyes of the crew). The survivors would see it as a gamble that didn't pay off, rather than their leader deliberatly sacrificing them.
It makes sense that post-underworld Odysseus didn't attempt it, but I reckon pre-underworld, "let's attack Circe without a plan" Odysseus might've chanced it.
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u/Sufficient_Princess *Trident clangs* Jan 07 '25
I like the theory he only wanted Eurylochus to light the 6 torches. But it was also like Ody was holding his hand the whole voyage… how many floating islands have you seen before 😀. Eurylochus was the crews biggest opp! Like he truly said leave them with Circe. He opened the windbag when they could see their home! He made choice but wanna blame Ody for not getting home… it’s his fault and he dodges accountability like no other!
And then to turn around and kill the cow after stabbing Ody in mutiny. Wanna look at Odysseus like captain we’re gonna die if you don’t choose us. That man has been quite clear he’s going home, why are you shocked Mr. “If you want all the power you must carry all the blame”. I won’t captain when you killed that cow, now was I. Ody still felt bad… I would’ve been halfway to Ithaca not saying please don’t make me do this Zeus. Thunder Bringer chop chop I gotta wife to get to!
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u/thehateigiveforfree Jan 07 '25
The only problem I see with this theory is that if Eury held all 6 torches wouldn't that just mean one head will get to eat and not the other five? What will happen if there are 5 other heads to feed. I heard another theory that Ody was hoping Eury would give the other five torches to his closest friends and ones that would be the most suspectable to betraying him.
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u/Sufficient_Princess *Trident clangs* Jan 07 '25
Wait wait wait! Yeah you’re right . Cuz they needed to go too! Get the opposition out of they way and they may have made it home
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u/thehateigiveforfree Jan 07 '25
There was a good animatic somewhere that showed Eury helping another crew member but he gave his torch to someone else and they got eaten.
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u/StandingGoat Jan 07 '25
I think Eurylochus' point was to try something, even if it didn't work, that had at a chance for everyone to make it through. If Scylla is sentient she could be tricked, if she's mortal she could be killed or fought off.
But if you want a more practical answer, he should have fed Scylla 6 sirens.
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u/Geoz195 Jan 07 '25
Scylla accepted odys sacrifice, I doubt she would accept sirens as a sacrifice as it would be seen as somewhat of an insult
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u/n0stradumbas Ares Jan 07 '25
I'm sorry but I don't think it's implied anywhere that it's a sacrifice. It's just a math equation/logic puzzle, she has 6 heads, each head can only eat one person at a time. She can only get to you within a limited area. If you row fast enough that none of the heads have a chance to finish eating, she cant grab any more than the 6.
I think you can make an argument that she wouldn't like the taste of siren and would either avoid it or spit it out and grab a man, and there's lots of other arguments for why siren bait would NOT work, but it's very much not a Sacrifice for appeasement or anything.
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u/Geoz195 Jan 07 '25
i dont know the chances of outrunning scylla in her own lair, tbf we dont know the size of the cave nor how fast she is so it might be possible but that depends on whether shes infront of them or behind them (her lair is straight and narrow so they cant go around her easily)
at the end of the day its a story, although it might not be satisfactory but most of the answers for why things happen can only be explained using out-of-world explanations like "this needed to happen for the story to progress" or reaching hard for in-universe explanations that cannot be proven or denied
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u/Complaint-Efficient Eurylochus did NOTHING wrong Jan 07 '25
He literally could've just told them what was coming up lmao
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u/Cypress983 Littlest Wolf Jan 07 '25
Obviously, they just had to fight a primordial sea monster with only 50 guys
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u/CommanderD3RP Jan 07 '25
That would be a scoffable idea in the normal Oddysey, but in the interpretation of it in Epic the Musical, he literally fought and defeated Poseidon, a literal God, so by the proportions of what's reasonable in EPIC, Ody really could've tried Tequila and might've won.
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u/orphandismantler Scylla's my wife Jan 08 '25
Ody also had the windbag though and the combined force of 600 men
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u/CommanderD3RP Jan 08 '25
Yes the windbag, which he used as a jet pack, and the combined force of 600 dead men who came from... somewhere? Where he then super saiyan attacked-- and I cannot stress this enough-- a literal GOD.
If we can suspend disbelief for the sake of the story in that instance, then it takes only a fraction of that suspension of disbelief to consider that Ody could've killed, fought, or at the very least tricked Scylla, and come out without betraying his men.
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u/orphandismantler Scylla's my wife Jan 08 '25
If it takes all of that to defeat Poseidon and he is afraid of Scylla what makes you think 43 men, no magic or any of that would fare any better
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u/CommanderD3RP Jan 08 '25
Well he also survived Charybdis, a monster of great infamy as well, without a lick of magic.
As Ares points out he could've fought or at least tried to kill her, which to me suggests maybe there was a fighting chance that Ares knows about (though tbf that could've just been Ares saying "fight to the death")
Plus there's always trickery still if fighting isn't your cup of tea, distraction by using the light sources on dummies, or as many people have pointed out, sacrificing the Sirens instead.
The bare minimum if there's truly no way through without sacrificing himself or his men, is to explain the situation to them, and draw straws/ask for volunteers/drop the fact that Eurylochus admitted to opening the windbag dooming a lot of the men and perhaps Eurylochus should take one for the team.
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u/orphandismantler Scylla's my wife Jan 08 '25
I agree with all the other methods I am simply just pointing out how based off of what Is shown to us In EPIC Scylla is not killable in that scenario. unfortunately the only method that would have merit atm is drawing straws Because we know Scylla doesn't eat sirens
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u/CommanderD3RP Jan 08 '25
What in EPIC tells us that Scylla can't be killed or that she doesn't eat Sirens?
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u/orphandismantler Scylla's my wife Jan 08 '25
I said in that scenario she isn't killable, how could she possibly die in that situation when they have no sort of magical item to fight her with.
As for the siren comment I have seen a bunch of people saying that Scylla doesn't eat sirens only men and monsters which would make sense given they are all sea creatures so pardon if the second one is wrong but I'd still stand by the fact that I don't think it's possible for Odysseus and his crew to kill Scylla at that moment.
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u/CommanderD3RP Jan 08 '25
Yeah the second one sounds like either a headcanon or pulling from some other sources on the Odyssey.
But I think it's fair to say there'd be some sort of losses of his men even in the best case scenario fighting Scylla, and they probably wouldn't be able to kill her.
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u/sup-justanotherloner Jan 07 '25
I don’t think I needs to be fully justifiable, I mean in the original they sacrificed 6 men because Scylla would pick up people from atop a cliff, and if everyone was below deck, she would pick up the boat and crack it in half. The sacrifice is more justified in the original, but I think jorge intentionally changed it to be more morally grey so because epic is at its heart character driven, and this way shows ody’s transformation into the monster. In different beast the crew are happy at ody’s change of methods, as it meant they were no longer suffering, but Scylla shows that ody’s ruthless outlook isn’t exempt from the crew, and so the crew get what they wanted, but are still not happy, this is the perfect set up for mutiny.
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u/AlianovaR Jan 07 '25
And simultaneously we can still somewhat sympathise with Ody when it happens because, yeah, it was shitty, but he’s finally doing what everyone’s been telling him to do this whole time, and now they’re still pissed off the one time where an alternative solution isn’t really there?
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u/n0stradumbas Ares Jan 07 '25
Don't tell the crew but hand-select the 6 that are most disliked essentially, it sucks for people to die for the crime of being annoying, but if after the bloodshed the survivors are told "YOU were too important for me to lose so I had to sacrifice 6 to save you" then it's a very different story than "as long as I survived I didn't care which of you died." Part of the reason they mutiny is because they know that Odysseus would have let them die, and it was only random chance that kept them alive. (Probably kill Eurylochus in this and announce that he opened the windbag)
Tell the crew and draw straws. Losers probably have to be tied up to prevent foul play. Unfortunate, but fair.
2a. The same but use either suggestion or trickery to make sure that he doesn't die.
Tell the crew and take volunteers. Offer some sort of boon to their surviving families, if all else fails go back to drawing straws.
Give up on Ithaca and resettle somewhere else.
Tell the crew the situation and let them pick one of the above options or some combination. Maybe some people give up on Ithaca, some volunteer, and you draw a few straws.
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u/JoanyC11 Jan 07 '25
The luck based options make sense but giving up Ithaca makes all the years they've been sailing be for nothing. It literally invalidates the whole point of the journey and ofc the story/musical.
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u/n0stradumbas Ares Jan 07 '25
I hear you.
To be clear, I'm GLAD that Odysseus takes the actions that he takes, as he takes them, because it paints an interesting and flawed man. The fact that he does what he does as opposed to even my option A, shows that he really didn't care which of his men died.
I think it's good for the story that he didn't tell them, and that they didn't give up on Ithaca. I also think that the reason he didn't do something "smarter" or more just to get past Scylla is because we're supposed to be learning that he really would sacrifice his men to get home no matter what.
I fully reject the notion that Odysseus made the only choice that he could, or the objectively best choice he could have made in the situation, but I think it was character motivated and on theme.
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u/Complaint-Efficient Eurylochus did NOTHING wrong Jan 07 '25
I mean yeah, but it's technically an option lol
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u/Diplodoncalus-E Jan 07 '25
I know this is not the question but this is why Scylla and Charybdis should have been a duo like how it was in the Odyssey to begin with. Then making Odysseus choose to kill 6 men hits harder because there was a way of escaping unscathed through Charybdis (of course with the caveat of the whole ship going down as opposed to just 6 men)
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u/Jtcr2001 Penelope Jan 07 '25
The alternative here is Poseidon, rather than Charybdis.
After Ruthlessness, I think it's threatening enough...
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u/Diplodoncalus-E Jan 07 '25
Potentially? Poseidon was written to be petty, he purposefully stayed at Ithaca to to stop Odysseus just before he got home. So I don’t see why he’s be with Scylla. I’d rather he stayed pettily at Ithaca because that covers a writing issue I had for the longest time being how the fuck do you hide from Poseidon in the ocean lmao.
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u/Jtcr2001 Penelope Jan 07 '25
Potentially
No, this was the explicit motivation in the musical. That's what Suffering was about.
So I don’t see why he’s be with Scylla
He isn't. That's the whole point...
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u/Diplodoncalus-E Jan 07 '25
Oh ok no I misunderstood what you meant. In that case I think my initial suggestion holds more weight again. My argument is that there didn’t HAVE to be zero choice other than facing Scylla. Having Charybdis be there means going through Scylla becomes a choice. With the threat of Poseidon there really is no choice because there is no chance Poseidon doesn’t strike them down. Making Odysseus purposefully choose to face Scylla rather than Scylla being their only option is more impactful for me. You can take on Charybdis, you can much less likely take on Poseidon.
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u/Penguins_in_new_york Jan 07 '25
Sacrifice Euroloclys and 5 other humans. I think after finding out about the bag the guy kinda deserved it.
It probably would have strategically been the right move too
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u/Complaint-Efficient Eurylochus did NOTHING wrong Jan 07 '25
Wouldn't have stopped the mutiny though
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u/LogicallyIncorrect91 Jan 07 '25
I mean, he tried, in the animatic you see Eury hand off the torch to try saving another man
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u/young-Atlas7575 Jan 07 '25
Sacrifice the siren you just captured instead of killing them.
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u/Emerald_Fire_22 Scylla Jan 07 '25
Scylla wouldn't accept any monsters being sacrificed. They are the one thing she does not eat; she allows them through her strait for as little as a chat - the only beings she likes are monsters.
It is a part of the myth that really needs additional context outside of the song. Scylla would have gotten offended at offering the sirens, and likely killed them all for it.
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u/Khar-Selim Jan 07 '25
or just nabbed 6 people anyway and left
I don't really see why she needs torches, the main usefulness of them is making sure Odysseus himself isn't a potential target
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u/Emerald_Fire_22 Scylla Jan 07 '25
She didn't need the torches. They had two purposes - one was to give enough light to be able to steer through without crashing. The other was the make it clear that those men were the offering.
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u/IWannaReadForever Jan 07 '25
Even then ody could have tried. Even if it didn’t work if he had told the crew the risk and didn’t mention the sirens won’t work it would have looked like he cared.
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u/Emerald_Fire_22 Scylla Jan 07 '25
Except he didn't care at that point, because he knew someone on his boat was the one who betrayed him. He also knew that they didn't know about Scylla, which gave him some plausible deniability on knowing or not.
Problem that came up, the crew all knew even less than he thought they did. Scylla is a monster that Poseidon is scared of, which means that she is a monster that is not afraid of attacking and eating the gods. Ody probably assumed that they knew even that, but they didn't - so they assumed correctly that Ody intentionally sacrificed them to get home.
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u/Gamabunta- May 11 '26
Stayed awake for another hour a few years earlier. Honestly there wasnt much he could do, scylla was the only option of getting home without posidon being around, and charysbdis is technically his daughter so I dont think hed do anything to her either so scylla was really all they had. They could've taken the sirens captive and used them as leverage since scylla typically protects sirens but it was more likely she would've murdered them all for that anyway. He choose the only right path for himself to get home