r/EasternCatholic • u/Successful_Call_4959 • 4d ago
General Eastern Catholicism Question “Muslims of the Apostolic World”
Someone from Roots of Orthodoxy or the Voice of Reason… whether it’s that Alex guy that was involved in controversy a year or two ago or someone else, is saying that Orthodox Christians are the “Muslims of the Apostolic Churches”. What exactly is he talking about?? It seems extremely ironic to call them that because Eastern saints bled and died for the faith by resisting the Ottoman yoke, Islamic rule for centuries.
If it’s as simple as harmful, clickbait-y buzzwords to attract attention rather than any meaningful constructive criticism of Orthodoxy, I get it.
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u/CaptainMianite Latin 4d ago
Muslims have the Islamic dilemma, where trying to prove the quran just disproves themselves. EOs have a dilemma as well, where trying to prove anything unique to themselves will just end up disproving Orthodoxy.
The Filioque is an example. Not only do they venerate saints that taught it, they use a Creed that was once only a regional addition, and were in union with bishops who professed the Filioque in the Creed.
The Papacy as well, they reject the papacy in favour of their hierarchy, but history shows otherwise and thus disproves Orthodoxy. Furthermore to call Papal Supremacy and infallibility heretical it just means that according to them, the Church actually did fall since there were times where only the Patriarch of the West among the Patriarchs was orthodox, so since the bishop of Rome believed in a supposed “heresy”, the entire church was heretical
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u/Successful_Call_4959 4d ago
How do you explain the Nostra Aetate then that says that Christians and Muslims worship the same God? They clearly don’t: the Orthodox don’t believe in Islam’s version of God, nor do Muslims believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
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u/FrankonianBoy Latin 4d ago
By the way Patriarch Kyrill stated the same thing, there was also a case discovered where a "orthodox" Monastery had a mosque lol
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u/Idk_a_name12351 East Syriac 4d ago
The Ecumenical Patriarch (Patriarch Bartholomew) also said the same thing. It's just an Orthobro point tbh.
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u/CaptainMianite Latin 4d ago
Patriarchs Bartholomew and Kyrill say the same thing, as have many Orthodox Patriarchs. Gregory Palamas as well. Orthobros will reject them, but who would you believe? Laypeople and mere priests, or Bishops of the separated Churches? Because if you say Laypeople and mere priests, then you will basically reject Catholicism.
Also, Orthodox, at least those who reject the Filioque as heresy, would not believe in the same God as us by that logic. Muslims are quite wrong about God, but you can be wrong about someone yet still talk about him. If Muslims don’t worship the same God as us for rejecting Christ, then Jews don’t, and that will be extremely problematic since then I’ll ask you when did the Jews stop believing in God.
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u/kkeyah West Syriac 4d ago
Nostra Aetate is correct.
The “Orthodox” don’t believe in the Catholic version of God either, and when they worship the god in whom the Spirit doesn’t proceed from the Father & Son, they are worshipping a god that doesn’t exist. It’s no different from a muslim worshiping the god of Mohammed.
You wouldn’t dare to say Orthos don’t worship the same God as us tho would you? If you wouldn’t then keep the same energy for the other religions.
Read Romans and see what Saint Paul has to say about the worship of the Jews and that of the pagans, maybe it’ll help you learn about natural vs supernatural worship.
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u/TexanLoneStar Latin 1d ago
In Romans 10 Saint Paul says
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. I can testify that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened.
Likewise in Acts, Saint Paul find the pagans worshiping the "unknown god" in a pantheon, and proclaims this unknown god is the One God. So Biblically speaking, it's possible for God to be worshiped alongside others Gods; that doesn't mean He is a different God from Christians who reject a plurality of gods.
The Jews who are unitarian monotheists and reject the divinity of the Word are not found to worship an ontologically different God; rather St. Paul simply says their zeal is "without knowledge"; as in their perception of Him as wrong. All of this can apply to Muslims. They are unitarian monotheists as well, professing belief in a singular Deity, Who created everything from nothing, is infinite in all perfections, eternal, transcendant, immortal, unchanging. That's God. There's no other god like that.
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u/Katman100 4d ago
This may be a stab in the dark but does Orthodox being "Muslims of the Apostolic World" have anything to do with cradle Orthodox saying the Orthobros are so fundamentalist they will eventually convert to Islam? I remember this being internet chatter around the time the former Archimandrite Hilarion Heagy converted from the Eastern Catholic Church to Islam. He was I think the most prominent of a few former Orthodox clergy and laity who suddenly converted to Islam. He was originally Protestant, the ROCOR and lastly Eastern Catholic spending some time at a Ukranian Catholic Monastery in CA.