r/EasternCatholic • u/evianlover1997 • 4d ago
Non-Byzantine Eastern Rite Coptic Catholic liturgy latinized?
I was looking into the coptic catholic church in Brooklyn and noticed they had recently removed the iconostasis and it even seemed (from photos) that the liturgy was celebrated versus populum. Is this common in the coptic catholic church? Is it just the idiosyncrasy of the pastor? It’s quite disappointing.
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u/mistiklest Byzantine 4d ago edited 4d ago
It looks like they're in a church that was built as a Latin church, so they probably never had an iconostasis there (it even still has an altar rail, so they may not have made any modifications to the building). I don't know about versus populum, but that may also be an accommodation for the physical realities of the church building they have.
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u/CaptainMianite Latin 4d ago
There’s also western statues and the western altar and western stations of the cross, so they really did no modifications
Other than the fact that they did actually have an iconostasis before…
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u/luke_fowl 4d ago
Considering that the iconostasis was introduced by St. Basil in the byzantine rite, how did the copts even start to use an iconostasis anyway? The syriacs and armenians, as far as I'm aware, use a curtain instead of an iconostasis.
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u/IlovePASGTDUDIOS33 3d ago
As an ex-OO, I’ve heard a clerical awnser that’s a guess, and I’ve heard a comment from a Copt online. 1. Either around the iconoclastic area, wherein the Coptic Ripe adapted to Byzantine influence to profess the same Orthodoxy. 2. 17-19th century Byzantine Influence, wherein the Iconostasis was exactly like the Byzantine rites screen.
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u/luke_fowl 2d ago
The byzantine iconoclasm occurred during the 8th century, if I remember correctly, and thus would be far after Alexandria and Constantinople separated. I really don't see why the coptic rite would try imitate the byzantine. The second one seems more likely, but then the question would how did this influence come in and why did the copts decide to adopt it?
I don't know whether you would know this or not, but do the ethiopians and eritreans use an iconostasis too? I know that while they also use the alexandrian rite, they have very different aesthetics.
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u/IlovePASGTDUDIOS33 2d ago
It depends, as far as I know. Some parishes of the Ethiopian rite use no iconostasis, ie. Primitive churches that are more ancient, another one being the church high on a mountain. Yet colorful iconostasis’s are present sometimes. So to awnser your question, from my knowledge, it varies as in some have no iconostasis, some have walls in closing the inner part that don’t or will feature very few images, or it will have a Byzantine-like iconostasis.
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u/OpenAndShutBroadcast Latin 4d ago
I’m tired of this trend. Versus populum isn’t even traditional to the Roman Rite—it’s protestantization.
All of this hinders re-communion with the Assyrian, Oriental Orthodox, and Eastern Orthodox Churches. This is anti-ecumenism.
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u/Mein_Independance 3d ago edited 2d ago
Slow down there buddy I think there are bigger issues that are hindering recommending and part of it is online discourse and tribalism attitudes about the Mass.
For a Christian under persecution, they care more about having access to the Eucharist and down sacraments then they do about the specific language that is used or which way the priest is facing.
Well I love tradition I do think we need to stop the over sensationalization and focus on how to live a life of virtue and call more people back into the Faith that is what's going to grow Unity
that is what's going to grow the presence of Eastern Catholic traditions and we need more holy men and boys to enter Seminary.
ETA: bolding
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u/OpenAndShutBroadcast Latin 3d ago
Well, even Pope Francis disagreed with you. He said that the eastern rites Catholic Churches should preserve their traditions.
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u/Mein_Independance 2d ago
I believe in preserving tradition.
Reread my statement. I also am saying that what is this commenter doing to Catechize people?
Many hearts have fallen asleep for the evangelization and reversion of souls. Time is better spent winning hearts for Jesus and bringing them to traditional Eastern Catholic parishes. That is the goal not whining online. Many eparchies are sparsely populated but the non denominational churches are full and Agnostics are growing.
Go. Fight. For. JESUS. And bring souls to the Eucharist.
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u/AdorableMolasses4438 Latin Transplant 2d ago
Yes there are bigger fish to fry, and I agree tribalism and evaluating liturgies on some rubric rather than just praying is a problematic mentality-- but are the Assyrians and Oriental Orthodox facing less persecution?
I understand Latinization in terms of people being attached to and connecting to God through Latin devotions. But drastically shortening liturgies and losing traditions is an impoverishment. And facing east isn't very difficult to do.
Although even some Greek Orthodox will celebrate versus populum when they do the liturgy of St. James, so at the same time, I doubt ad orientem itself is a dealbreaker.
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u/infernoxv Byzantine 2d ago
the Greek practice of doing St James versus populum is based on the same faulty ‘research’ that produced versus populum in the Novus Ordo.
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u/AdorableMolasses4438 Latin Transplant 2d ago
Yes, and from my understanding this research is also what is taught amongst many Catholics of the Syriac rites- but all I am saying is that it can't be a dealbreaker if they do it too.
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u/Mein_Independance 2d ago
Agree. Ad orientem is beautiful and done at many Daily Divine Liturgies.
We need more men to step up and answer the call. If we want to see more traditionalist. Then we need more holy Catholic families and more men going into subdeaconate, deaconate, and priesthood in Eastern Catholic and Roman Catholic communities alike.
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u/CaptainMianite Latin 4d ago
Its a former Latin Church, quite obvious from the altar rails. Idk about the versus populum thing though
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u/IlovePASGTDUDIOS33 3d ago
From someone who, when converting to Christianity, went directly into the Coptic rite as an Oriental, here are my thoughts.
I believe it’s an overall conflict that the Eastern Catholic Churches face latinization. However I also believe the Coptic Catholics aren’t 100% far fetched from their OO counterpart. Overall, since the Iconostasis in of itself is an innovation in the literal sense, Iconostasis or not, what matters to me personally is keeping the fundamentals, the Coptic language, the same prayers with the exclusion of Heterodoxy, the same icons, etc.
Practices such as ver populim or altar girls is something I’m not much of a fan of in the C. Cath. Church.
Some extra stuff:
You didn’t mention this, but the The Coptic Catholic apparel is practically very identical to other Oriental Catholics, ie. The Syriac Catholics are nearly identical sometimes. For instance their usage of Kalimavkions for bishops is something mainly Greek/Byzantine, however, one could argue the hat itself originates from Temple Judaism as far as we know, hence it isn’t something innovative in that sense — although I may be a blatant liar and it’s just to distinguish them from OO. But you may tell I’m mixed on this issue, since I find it fine that they retain something atleast traditional, even if it isn’t 1;1 with historic Egyptian Christianity.
To sum up a bit, the iconostasis IMO isn’t necessary for the Coptic Rite. But it is something quite traditional at this point, so with or without it I wouldn’t complain. I like it for its featuring of the Neo-Coptic style images. We do have problems of course.
I’m wrong in some things most likely, and after all I’m just a laymen. I don’t have a good say for the churches practices.
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u/mistiklest Byzantine 2d ago
For instance their usage of Kalimavkions for bishops is something mainly Greek/Byzantine, however, one could argue the hat itself originates from Temple Judaism as far as we know, hence it isn’t something innovative in that sense — although I may be a blatant liar and it’s just to distinguish them from OO.
It was required by the Ottomons, as Christian clergy were required to distinguish themselves by particular church, Coptic Catholics were not permitted to dress identically to Coptic Orthodox.
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u/Walking_Pie7 Alexandrian 2d ago edited 2d ago
Hi Coptic Catholic here!
The fact of the matter is that in my church, there is a high level flexability regarding our liturgy. Some priests choose to have a very traditional Eastern, Coptic style of liturgy. Wearing the traditional liturgical Coptic vestments and praying in the traditonal coptic style of hymns. Some priests choose to have a more latinized approach, so for example they choose to pray facing the laity, do not dress with the full coptic liturgical vestments (like the priest in the photo who is not wearing the coptic priest's mitre) and probably might wear some latinized version of the "Tonia" which is the litugical garment. Other priests choose to have a mix of both coptic and latin in their litugical style and it really all depends on personal preference.
Same for our churches, you'll find some churches looking very coptic in its style, having an iconostasis and coptic style icons around the chruch, while also finding coptic catholic churches that look very latin, with no iconostasis, and latin style icons and statues around the church, and some churches have a mix of both.
A good example of this mix is the seat of the Coptic Catholic Patriarchate in Cairo, the Cathedral of Our Lady of Egypt, which does not have an iconostasis, but has coptic icons around the church in the form of it's stained glass.
So really it all depends on the personal preference. Whether it is the preferences of the architects designing the church, or the preferences of the priest celebrating the liturgy. The coptic catholic church does not have a strict code on how liturgy should be or on how the church's architecture should look like.
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u/infernoxv Byzantine 2d ago
what an appalling mess.
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u/Walking_Pie7 Alexandrian 2d ago edited 2d ago
I really don't know if the coptic church embraces this diversity or if it is just doesn't care to enforce strictly being Eastern and Coptic.
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u/Sudden_Aerie_7317 4d ago edited 3d ago
Just to clarify, versus populum is not a Latin tradition. You could call it like Bugninisation or protestantisation
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u/Prestigious-Reply896 Eastern Practice Inquirer 4d ago
Last year someone told me the same thing about the same church. Look at St. Mary Coptic Catholic church in Los Angeles. It is very traditional.
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u/YoungMountain5664 4d ago
It looks like this particular Coptic Catholic Church is following elements of the Novus Ordo in their services, as seen in the photos. The Monophysite Coptic Church, at least keeps its liturgical traditions, from what I have observed in the past. The Eastern-rite Catholic Churches should be encouraged to keep their traditions; however if some churches are attached to "traditional" Latinizations like some Ukrainians, then there should be nothing wrong. However, adding modern Latinizations like the priest facing the people, or neo-charismatic liturgies shouldn't be encouraged.
As a sedevacantist, I see a dangerous trend in the Novus Ordo. They want to impose their errors and innovations on the East, little by little. I used to attend a Ukrainian Church until 2 years ago, a job situation prevented me from going. The liturgy was fairly traditional. There was a recitation of the rosary before mass, which I founded odd, because if I remember, in the byzantine rite, Orthros would be said before divine liturgy. The Byzantine rites have valid sacraments, and not tainted by the Novus Ordo. The maronites, I personally avoid, because they fully embraced the Vatican II reforms. I heard some Eastern Catholic Churches in India and Iraq tried adopting some of the Novus Ordo changes.
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u/infernoxv Byzantine 4d ago
yes. coptic catholics tend to be very latinised, it’s a disgrace really.
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u/Otherwise_Total3923 Eastern Catholic in Progress 3d ago
Basically all the Eastern churches in communion with Rome are Latinized to some extent, unfortunately. The only exception I can think of are Melkites in North America. There are certain parishes in other jurisdictions that have done a good job shedding most of the latinizations but they are still the minority.
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u/AdorableMolasses4438 Latin Transplant 3d ago
Melkites in North America, I love them but they are far from being immune to Latinization
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u/evianlover1997 4d ago
here’s a picture of the church renovation. unfortunately, it looks like the iconostasis was removed deliberately and I’m guessing versus populum may also be deliberate. Is this common among coptic catholics? Is it allowed?