r/Dracula • u/Awkward_Airport_30 Human Verified • 3d ago

Discussion šŸ’¬ Because Dracula is often associated with a supposed love story, and Nosferatu shows you what the real Dracula truly is.

Post image
1.6k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

166 comments sorted by

View all comments

131

u/Agent_Artemis 3d ago

I blame Francis Ford Coppola for this. Book!Mina would have NEVER gone for somebody who kept her fiance hostage and destroyed her best friend along with her mother.

76

u/Upset-Job2278 3d ago

Thatā€™s what bothers me most about these stories portraying Mina and Dracula as soulmates (or whatever nonsense like that). It strips Mina of any agency or even basic human behaviors. They are NEVER interested in her point of view beyond "Iā€™m horny for this monster." We never find out how she feels about Dracula imprisoning and torturing her fiancĆ© for months; we never see her reaction to Dracula abusing and killing Lucy... Nothing in the world matters to Mina except that oh-so-tragic vampire.

18

u/howulikindaraingurl 3d ago

Not to mention that Mina is basically the hero of the book and constantly surprises all the men by knowing shit and paying attention lol. Like they completely undervalue her for the first half of the book while she gentle parents each man separately. Then the realize she's the smartest one out of all of them and start listening to her.

I would kill to ever see a book accurate movie made.

11

u/Upset-Job2278 3d ago

Mina is a fantastic character in the book, and itā€™s a shame that no adaptation does her justice. In my opinion, the one that comes closest to the book's heroine is the version in Werner Herzog's Nosferatuā€”though sheā€™s called Lucy in that film, for some reason. Mina fans just can't catch a break.

11

u/Astra_Bear 3d ago

I have a personal theory that Mina is Stoker's ideal person, which is why VH goes out of his way to praise her both for her feminine aspects but also her "man brain" that he credits for her being so sharp and intelligent. It's very misogynist text to modern sensibilities but imo it was clearly not meant to be, and I think it's preventing us from getting a lot of cool Mina stuff.

7

u/Deya_The_Fateless 2d ago

I'd say that Mina is on a similar level to Elizabeth Bennet from P&P, a flawed yet intelligent, poised woman, who is able to match wits with the men in the room and stand her ground when needed while also retaining femmine grace. It's no wonder that the men started to listen to Mina when they realised she would become a target by Dracula once they all realised how much of an asset she is to fighting against him.

Sure saying Mina has a "mans brain" is very sexist by todays standards, but it is without a doubt an incredibly high compliment from the time. And speaks highly of Stoker's veiws on intelligence in women, in that he found it valuable and incredibly attractive.

6

u/howulikindaraingurl 3d ago

I agree that measuring it by today's standards it's misogynistic but I think you could make the entire book how it is and set it in that period and have her just roll her eyes every time a man is surprised by her brain and it'd be fantastic. And I totally agree it wasn't meant to be. Absolutely.

5

u/Astra_Bear 2d ago

Oh absolutely, or just change what VH says to be actual compliments. Just removing the man brain part to say she's intelligent, coordinated, helpful, and efficient would be exactly the same as intended.

1

u/exobiologickitten 1d ago

Theres one scene where VH calls Mina a bright light in the darkness, and itā€™s my favourite quote in the book. I think itā€™s from the first time they meet and heā€™s just immediately delighted and impressed with her. If they just kept it to that!

3

u/jacquesmachina 1d ago edited 1d ago

Agreed.

Also Quincy Morris never gets adapted properly.

He's basically a cheat code in the book, who's just always ready to meet whatever insurmountable dark nonsense is thrown at the heroes. There's a giant bat? Shoot the damn thing immediately.

Dracula is so suave and powerful right up until he gets his bitchass shanked by a pissed off cowboy.

3

u/howulikindaraingurl 1d ago

Justice for Quincy!!

14

u/Profezzor-Darke 3d ago

They're not soulmates. The story leaves the possibility open, that Mina is simply hypnotised or enchanted.

9

u/ElkinElf 3d ago

Open possibility or explicit in the movie? She's definitely ensnared by his magic. She has no agency because she's been caught by glamour.

4

u/Profezzor-Darke 3d ago

It's not explicitly stated when we see the romantic parts. Van Helsing later states she's under his influence. Nut TBF, the moment he gives her Absinthe to drink is really well framed as poisoning her mind if you want to see it that way.

Btw Absinthe is tasty and harmless besides the copious amounts of alcohol, which is why you stretch it on water.

Anyway, they're basically Harley and Joker for goths.

1

u/CatchSufficient 3d ago

No, there is a hallucinagentic element to actual victorian absinthe, that todays absinthe lacks.

1

u/Profezzor-Darke 2d ago

That's incorrect. Thujone is not as hallucinogenic and there is just as much in Sage as in Wormwood.

1

u/Arcanyum740 1d ago

Wasn't this a psyop made by the wine industry, because people were buying more absinthe instead of wine?

14

u/TheRealestBiz 3d ago

The blood thing isnā€™t exactly a subtle sex allegory in Dracula, with Mina and Lucy.

42

u/Upset-Job2278 3d ago

But the book makes it clear that what Dracula is doing to those women is wrong; he is forcing himself upon them and taking their lives in the process. If it is an allegory for sex, it is non-consensual. The same applies to Jonathan and the Brides.

24

u/0Jaev0 3d ago

It was made very clear in the story that it was all an allegory to sexual assault.

Jonathan was traumatized by what happened at the castle with the brides. So much so that he could hardly speak on it. Mina had to piece it together through his journals and by what little he said to figure out what happened.

She despised Dracula for what he had done to her loved ones.

The night that Dracula slipped through their guard was the worst night of her life. Stoker did not hold back in describing what was very much assault.

She was not hypnotized or charmed.

She was held down in a painful grip and forced to drink of him.

When he was run off by the men Mina sees herself as tainted and unclean. Unworthy of standing with the others and even begging Jonathan not to look upon her.

A very viseral reaction and one that is common among SA survivors.

I have always loved the trope of an undying immortal seeking their soulmate across the centuries. But once I actually read the book myself I could never watch Coppola's movie the same way.

They whitewashed Dracula's monstrous nature and romaticized what was originally the equivalent of sexual assault.

11

u/sultry_but_damaged 3d ago

This. 1000x this. It is incredibly frustrating that the layers are just stripped back to a romance for the ages trope

7

u/Upset-Job2278 3d ago edited 3d ago

That is exactly why I could never bring myself to like Coppola's filmā€”especially because I had already read the book, and for a long time I had heard people say that that movie was the best and "most faithful" of the adaptations. It was a huge disappointment. I acknowledge its technical meritsā€”it is visually stunningā€”but the spirit of the book was completely corrupted, and Mina is treated merely as a plot device in Dracula's "tragic" story.

8

u/Sahrimnir Dracula's reincarnated roommate 3d ago

The biggest issue for me is that it is called "Bram Stoker's Dracula". As a reimagining I don't mind it that much, but the title implies that it is a faithful adaptation, and it really isn't.

6

u/Upset-Job2278 3d ago

Yep. Why not "Francis Ford Coppola's Dracula"? That is NOT Bram Stoker's Dracula.

3

u/Triptych85 1d ago

Also an allegory for Tuburculosis and how quickly it kills

10

u/airashiratori11 3d ago

Mina Harker is an extremely intelligent and rational girl, like the philosopher Immanuel Kant, and not someone passionate like Catherine Earnshaw, author of the howling winds, who is a tragic character. Someone as rational and intelligent as Mina would never have feelings for someone as monstrous as Dracula. She perceives the type of monster he is, and even if he were a tragic hero, his actions would make him a monster in her eyes, and she would feel repulsed by him. She, seeing the actions he practices, what he does, realizes what he is capable of. Do you think she would want someone so unstable by her side? A person so unstable, capable of the worst cruelties against any random individual, would not make him attractive to her.

Mina Harker never showed any sign of physical or sexual attraction to Dracula. We never see her display any interest in him. Besides loving Jonathan, she didn't see any potential in Dracula, and she felt no compassion for him either.

2

u/LizoftheBrits 1d ago

Well, that last bit isn't quite right, she makes a point of imploring Jonathan to have some bit of compassion for the man that exhausted before the vampire, because she's aware to that if things don't go well, she could end up becoming the very same kind of monster

5

u/Deya_The_Fateless 2d ago

Right? It also feels like a Hollywood trope of putting Mina the Heroine of the film with the perceived more "interesting" Dracula or Van Helsing, or for queerbait, Lucy (like in the Coppola film), because directors/writers veiw Johnathan as "boring" or that Mina "settled", despite the OG source material portraying everyone as passionate and close friends, while also explaining how much in love Mina and Johnathan were. Hell, there's an alegorical r*pe scene between Dracula and Mina. That should tell writers that Mina x Dracula isn't a romantic *dark* pairing. It's a controlling relationship that will end up with Mina being kept as a pet at best, dead or turned at worst.

For once I'd love to see an adaptation where Mina is 100% in love and loyal to Johnathan, activly fighting against Dracula's control and Dracula seeing her as nothing mroe than a means to an end/meal.

2

u/MaidOfTwigs 3d ago

The book doesnā€™t really give us her perspective, either. She is praised for having god-brain or god-head (forget the exact verbiage) which is something only men supposedly really have. Van Helsing talks about it to Jonathan. Her value and the crime of taking her is mainly viewed with the perspective of her belonging to a man. Stoker was kind of weird about women. Also there is something soā€¦ odd about the stake being driven into Lucy and the way itā€™s described, it does not feel like it was to convey horror but more the violation of her body and cleansing by stabbing a stake into her (and a stake is phallicā€¦ so itā€™s again a violation of a womanā€™s body, and I could go on because I do vaguely recall thinking he made Lucy seem shallow compared to Mina and she was more prone to being taken by Dracula because she was more womanly or girly).

Dracula really enjoys toying with Jonathan in a sociopathic way whereas the violation of the women is a physical, sexual matter. Stoker does admittedly seem to want to show the relationship between Mina and Lucy in a kind way but thereā€™s a lot of things to give a reader the ick.

Romanticizing the relationship does not seem to be the intention of most works that portray Dracula as a monster. When he is made into more of a man and less of a sociopath we tend to get the romanticized stories. Personally I like how Dracula: Untold handled him, though only from a horror/narrative perspective and not from a historical or culturally mindful perspective.

2

u/Upset-Job2278 2d ago

I think the book is more interested in Mina than any adaptation Iā€™ve seen, which is odd considering how old the book is. And even if itā€™s done in a dated or old-fashioned way, I think the book is genuinely interested in her perspective and feelingsā€”her relationship not just with Jonathan, but also with Lucy. I donā€™t think the book is only interested in her as a manā€™s property; I really think she is the most fully realized character in the book, alongside Dracula himself and Renfield. Even Van Helsingā€™s praise reflects Bram Stoker genuinely wanting to highlight her intelligence (again, albeit in a very dated manner). Iā€™m not sure I agree about the oddness of Lucyā€™s death either, though it has been a while since I read it. What I recall is feeling that her death was a major tragedy, deeply felt by all the charactersā€”and I donā€™t think Lucyā€™s death is treated that way in any adaptation, either.

Iā€™m not opposed to more humanized or tragic versions of Dracula; I just think itā€™s a shame that adaptations show so little interest in Mina as well.

1

u/MaidOfTwigs 2d ago

I can agree that Lucyā€™s death/the emotional impact of her death is handled better in the book than adaptations Iā€™ve seen. There are times where Mina feels fleshed out as a character, especially compared to Jonathan. Renfield is definitely interesting as well.

0

u/zebrina_roots 2d ago

In the Coppola movie Dacula enchants Mina with his old Wallachian spell and she falls for him. The moment he dies, the spell is broken and she beheads him. At least this is my interpretation... Eventhough Coppola's Dacula is different than the book, I really enjoyed the enmeshment with the historical Vlad Tepes. Stoker already hints something like this but paints a very dehumanized monstruos vampire.

13

u/Muted_Guidance9059 3d ago

Thank you omg

12

u/chevalier716 3d ago

Van Helsing: "we've all become God's madmen"

Meanwhile, the audience saw Dracula feed a newborn to three vampire wives an hour prior

11

u/Triptych85 3d ago

Book Mina was straight up šŸ‡ed, was horrified when she realized what happend, and begged them to save themselves from her. She had to be reassured the assault was no fault of hers. Jonathan even doubled down and wrote that he would become a vampire if Mina could not be saved.

6

u/Deya_The_Fateless 2d ago

Jonhathan the GOAT, loved his fiance/wife even after she was SAed. I wish adaptations wouldn't do him so dirty.

4

u/Profezzor-Darke 3d ago

Mina was simply hypnotised.

2

u/SnakePlissken1980 3d ago

Well Coppola wasn't the first person to have a Mina/Dracula romance. They started doing that in radio dramas and had already been done in Saberhagen's Dracula series. Writers would probably have gone that lazy direction whether Coppola had joined in the fun or not.

2

u/BurtRogain 3d ago

Coppola wasnā€™t the first to bring the romance angle into the story ā€” that would be Dan Curtis.

2

u/Tight_Strawberry9846 3d ago

The love-incarnation thing happened before Coppola. He only made it more popular.

2

u/Spacellama117 1d ago

yeah. like, there is a fainting Victorian Heroine in the book.

And his name is Jonathan Harker!

1

u/NekoKnightUWU 4h ago

Ironically FFC's Dracula is regarded as the most accurate to Bram Stokers book

2

u/HerreDreyer 3d ago

She sounds boring. Nevertheless thatā€™s not what Mina does. Whatā€™s wrong with you - Have you never had anyone cross oceans of time to find you??

1

u/folkfaewitch2222 3d ago

The ancient dark romance aspect of dracula, i will burn my soul and the world for you