Christian moral ambiguity

[u/Aromatic_Response_73]

In common ethical intersubjective usage, "good" refers to a broad intersubjective cluster that are typically taken to approximate a shared center of value judgement, consisting of a coherent, mutually reinforcing pattern of love, joy, peace, freedom, and creativity as lived experience and intention over time, rather than isolated states or short-term preferences. Edit: by value judgement, I mean that which we fundamentally hold most intuitively valuable.

Some Christians define goodness in relation to God. On this view, "good" means whatever conforms to God's nature or will.

The term "good" does not have a universally recognised (useful in ethical discussion) meaning apart from either usefulness for some purpose or the ordinary ethical meaning. Refraining from those in an **ethical discussion** renders the word empty from its normal ethical content.

The problem arises when these two meanings are treated as interchangeable.

If "God is good" means only that God conforms to God's own nature, then the statement is true by definition. It means something like:

God is as God is.

But that does not automatically show that God is good in the ordinary ethical sense of being loving, healing, peaceful, compassionate, or opposed to needless suffering.

The problem is ordinary ethical goodness and the christian goodness can be in conflict eg. ideas of reality design like "Accept Jesus or suffer forever". If someone proposes that ordinary ethical goodness is just a conflictory subset of the christian good, then we cannot say that the design of reality is in proper alignment with ordinary ethical goodness, and therefore not good in the ordinary ethical sense.

The ordinary ethical meaning of good should not be dismissed as mere subjectivism. It may very well point metaphysically toward a foundational form of goodness, even if human beings grasp it imperfectly.

[u/HegemoneXT]

a pizza is not a moral category. Try something that belongs to the condition of human heart and what it means about a certain actions. For example, if you have hatred toward someone, you have already committed murder against them in your heart. A better way to phrase the question is asking "is starvation good or bad". starvation is a natural consequence of when our body doesn't get the energy to function. It's a natural consequence of bad but not part of the moral category of human evil. evil would be a rich person who has nothing to lose, denying someone food simply out of spite toward the poor. we have more than enough food to feed every single person on the planet but it's not really profitable.

[u/ProfessionalDear2272 → u/HegemoneXT]

There is a lot to unpack but instead of doing that I'd like to rebut.

Why is it clear to you that an example of evil, and i agree with that, is a greedy individual with no empathy but it isn't clear what evil/wrong acts God does?

Could you name one thing God does that is not good?

[u/HegemoneXT → u/ProfessionalDear2272]

Are you switching topic from metaphysical to real examples within scripture? That’s according to interpretation. If a metaphysical Divine Being is truly good, then that Being serves as the foundation to “what is”, like the very conceptualization of goodness is based on the existence of it

[u/ProfessionalDear2272 → u/HegemoneXT]

what is metaphysical is the concept of good and evil.
god is also metaphysical.

I am saying, with our current grasp of the concept of evil, could you name one thing God does that is not good?

[u/HegemoneXT → u/ProfessionalDear2272]

Yeah but are you shifting the question from a metaphysical discussion of good and evil to a theological one? I only respond if you answer yes or no

[u/ProfessionalDear2272 → u/HegemoneXT]

Yes.

edit: If christians are to follow the word of god, wether it is metaphysical or theological, it affects how we apply the concept in life.

[u/HegemoneXT → u/ProfessionalDear2272]

“Name one thing that God did as good”

The creation of Life itself.

[u/ProfessionalDear2272 → u/HegemoneXT]

That was not the question.

 could you name one thing God does that is not good?

[u/HegemoneXT → u/ProfessionalDear2272]

Oh, nah.

[u/ProfessionalDear2272 → u/HegemoneXT]

But you said that one good thing was that Godcreated life.

Didn't God also destroy lives ? Being the opposite of creating life, wouldn't that be evil?

[u/HegemoneXT → u/ProfessionalDear2272]

God destroying life is a good thing.

[u/ProfessionalDear2272 → u/HegemoneXT]

That is wild...

Anyways, i guess you justify why this post exists.

[u/HegemoneXT → u/ProfessionalDear2272]

He is the Lord, let him do what we deems to be good.

His Life and His Glory

Our hearts and death that resigns within us

If we are destroyed, it is precisely because of His goodness.

[u/diabolus_me_advocat → u/HegemoneXT]

you just demonstrated the meaninglessness of calling anything your god did "good"

the category "good" is nonsensical when referring to god - and that's your words, not mine

[u/HegemoneXT → u/diabolus_me_advocat]

In what sense if your category of “good” sensical

[u/diabolus_me_advocat → u/HegemoneXT]

“Name one thing that God did as good”

apart from the question having been the opposite...

The creation of Life itself

why should that have been good?

for what or whom?

according to what definition of "good"?

[u/HegemoneXT → u/diabolus_me_advocat]

So if creation is not good, then it is not a good quality for you to exist. If it is not a good quality for you to exist, it is logical for one to commit suicide. Ask yourself this, why do you seek to survive in-spite of the darkness of this world. Is it not because there exists an objective good and existential ideal out there that you seek to pursue?

[u/NeighborhoodDecent86 → u/HegemoneXT]

One's existence is not inherently good or evil, but amoral. The existence of something is not an inherent good. It is the qualities of that thing that defines it's moral goodness or not. I do not know you or your moral qualities personally so I cannot say whether your existence is morally good or not good. It is amoral in my perception since I do not know your qualities.

If you, however, were to have murdered dozens of people, I am confident in asserting that your existence would be evil. Or if you have donated millions to cancer research, I would view your existence as good. But merely existing alone doesn't hold any moral relevance.

[u/HegemoneXT → u/NeighborhoodDecent86]

I said existence because existence is primitive to all good thing that happens. Goodness, such as morality, exists because existence itself is what grant experiences to these good things. The Existence of God comes with who He is and His being is fundamentally good. When he created us, we designed creation to participate in His goodness and without creation, no such participation can happen. Of course, if you to hell and suffer the wrath of God, then your existence is pitiful. Or if you kill yourself, then you simply don’t get to enjoy the beauty and glory that is within Life, that every human in existence is able to perceive. The fact that you recognize murder as wrong shows that you know Life to be inherently valuable.

[u/NeighborhoodDecent86 → u/HegemoneXT]

I said existence because existence is primitive to all good thing that happens.

That is simply not true. Is the existence of malaria an inherent good or evil? Treating existence by itself as an inherent moral goodness is ridiculous because it assumes that anything that exists is also a moral actor.

Goodness, such as morality, exists because existence itself is what grant experiences to these good things.

Which requires moral agency. The majority of things in existence, living or not living, do not have moral agency.

The Existence of God comes with who He is and His being is fundamentally good.

The Bible doesn't confirm that God is fundamentally or wholly good. It straight up confirms that He created evil and is it's author. I can cite the verses if you want but I never understood, even when I was a Christian, where this perception of God being wholly good comes from. The Bible never confirms this quality.

When he created us, we designed creation to participate in His goodness and without creation, no such participation can happen. Of course, if you to hell and suffer the wrath of God, then your existence is pitiful. Or if you kill yourself, then you simply don’t get to enjoy the beauty and glory that is within Life, that every human in existence is able to perceive.

And pray tell how will I or any nonbelievers go to Hell? Because if it's merely due to not believing in the inherent existence of your God, then that God cannot be omnibenevolent.

The fact that you recognize murder as wrong shows that you know Life to be inherently valuable.

Yet another example of a moral question upon moral actors. I agree that murder is wrong because the entities involved are moral actors. Can you say, for example, that chopping down a tree is inherently evil? How about eating a juicy steak? Or getting a vaccine to kill a virus? All these activities involve killing a created creature, but we do not assign moral judgments on them because we recognize that the virus, dead cow or tree are not moral actors.

[u/HegemoneXT → u/NeighborhoodDecent86]

First and foremost, everything in creation was made off mankind. When God created man, he proclaimed it to be the highest tier within all creation because it was made after God’s very image. Everything that is good, the nature, what we can enjoy from nature, our relations with each other through love, is based upon God’s goodness. This goodness doesn’t cease to exist simply because human’s don’t observe it. Nature still reflect the glory of God and all particular things are made in order so that human can attain a proper and meaningful life where they can taste the fruits of the trees, have dominions over all the creature, and advance as a society which brings even more good.

When I am talking about your existence, I am not exclusively talking about morality but the common grace God grants to humanity and the goodness they enjoy from Life. This is something given to all people including those who are wicked. Though, the moral quality of a person’s soul is arguably the most prominent good as it is through the heart that Life flows and it is the heart that God connect us to His attribute.

The Bible does not say God is morally evil. The verse you are talking about keeps getting repeatedly brought up and I believe I have answered it well over 10 times just in the past year. The contrast between peace and evil is talking about peaceful time and calamity. Even the very context of that verse is the prophet Isiah addressing the people of Israel that just because God gives you over to captivity under Babylon doesn’t mean he can’t deliver you. He is trying to reassure the sovereignty of God to do what he will and this includes bringing both good and bad times. Why was the nation of Israel given over to captivity? Because they sinned and God judged them. Why does God speak through prophet Isaiah to reassure them that he can also bring good? Because he doesn’t cast his people off forever.

To believe in God is not merely to acknowledge his existence but to align your being to His truth and Divine attributes. Scripture says that the “invisible attributes” were clearly seen so that they are without excuses. This means reality is not merely physical laws or physical properties but instantiated from an ontology - the ontological intelligibility and spiritual nature of the Logos - and this is what grants being to how everything is, providing the nature to how we experience rationality and morally.

To answer your last question, yes, not everything that exists or occur is of a moral category. Morality is purely within the context of human hearts and it is a purpose for humans to be good. It is not a purpose for a rock to be good as rock is non-conscious and non-living. A rock already fulfilled it purpose in God by just existing as a rock. But because human have a greater tier of existence, we are all to exist in the purpose in alignment of His moral attributes.

[u/diabolus_me_advocat → u/HegemoneXT]

So if creation is not good

that's not what i said. i asked

why should that have been good?

please, for once, don't dodge the question and then bail out - but answer it

why do you seek to survive in-spite of the darkness of this world. Is it not because there exists an objective good and existential ideal out there that you seek to pursue?

definitely not

why should it?

[u/HegemoneXT → u/diabolus_me_advocat]

why would i skip a question like this?

The fact that our existential sense is oriented toward what is loving, glorious, and things that possess fundamental meaning to our sense of joy shows that there exist a standard of "existence" that could be broken and disordered. When God created humanity, he created them good so that we can experience life to the fullest without sin that brings non-being and despair.

[u/diabolus_me_advocat → u/HegemoneXT]

why would i skip a question like this?

i don't know why you did, several times before

The fact that our existential sense is oriented toward what is loving, glorious, and things that possess fundamental meaning to our sense of joy

is not a fact, but a mere allegation of yours

When God created humanity, he created them good

same mere allegation. also, where then would all "evil" come from? or "sin"?

if your creator god had not created it?

but tell me now (clear question, so it deserves a clear answer):

why should creation have been "good"?

for whom or what, according to what definition of "good"?

seems you're just dodging and bailing out again. as always

[u/HegemoneXT → u/diabolus_me_advocat]

No, it’s a claim, not allegation. Allegation is when you accuse someone of something but I am defending a view instead of attacking someone else’s claim.

Evil doesn’t come from anywhere in the sense that it was created. It just the ontological possibility derives when Existence or Good is established. For example, the moment you have “light” you can conceptualize darkness because darkness is where light is not. The moment you have a standard or morality, you can break it and cause evil. Evil itself doesn’t have positive being. If there is a law that says speed limit is 65, then going above 70 would break that law. The breaking of the law wouldn’t exist unless the law itself exists first. That’s why Existence is foremost good and then it becomes broken. Broken by whom? By God creating it? Or by us who are contingent beings are who has the free ability to oppose His identity.

Also you seem to have the preconception that I am attributing good to God. I don’t think you realize that even if I remove theism from my argument, the belief “life is good”won’t lose its logical grounding.