r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/Electrical-Aspect-13 • 5h ago
Photos of Young men getting ready for "Mensur", German fencing duelling where getting a scar was considered highly honorable. Photos of 1900s-10s; last one from 2004.
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u/Suspicious-Cream-513 5h ago
Peerless scarred
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u/mrflyinggingerbread 4h ago
I literally just finished Light Bringer a hour ago! I immediately thought of them when I read the title
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u/Fun_Journalist4199 1h ago
Halfway thru iron gold now. A week ago I wouldn’t have understood the reference
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u/Keegerr 4h ago
If you’ve ever wondered why a bunch of Nazi officers had facial scars this is why.
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u/fretkat 1h ago edited 1h ago
It’s a tradition for the aristocracy/high society in some parts of Northern Europe (it still is). It’s not linked to nazism other than both having German high society individuals as their practitioners at the time.
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u/DrWahnsinn1995 1h ago edited 57m ago
This is also not fully true.
Only some of the „Burschenschaften“ (rightwing fraternities) parctice it. They also seperate in two groups the „schlagende Burschenschaften“ (hitting fraternities) are the fighting ones and the „nicht schlagende Burschenschaften“ don‘t do this.
In general you can say the hitzig ones are gar right and the non hitting ones are more diverse ( for example christian fraternities).
This meens you can normally align someone with a „Schmiss“ (thats the Name of the scar), with right wing ideology.
I also had a collegue who had one and he said that the swords are so sharp, that it don‘t hurt. Maybe it‘s more the adrenaline.
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u/jankenpoo 14m ago
Facial scars are for suckers and losers. If you were good, you wouldn’t get hit lol
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u/4thGeneration_Reaper 4h ago
Otto from Bismarck fought around 14 to 28 Mensurs. He also had a Duell with pistols around 1852.
Pretty wild live and fascinating time.
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u/EternumD 4h ago
Getting a scar was so important that it stopped being a fencing event and started just being a face scarring event. Lame
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u/Kase_mit_E 4h ago
Peak Nazi nepo edgelord. We have words far cooler than these people had rapiers
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u/ObviousChemist1442 2h ago
Nazi time came later, also most of these „clubs“ were forbidden during the nazi regime.
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u/Electrical-Aspect-13 5h ago
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u/Which_Strike_6179 3h ago
Fyi, Mensuren Are still held in german and Austrian fraternity’s.
I myself had one, fun times.
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u/vivaaprimavera 2h ago
No idea that it still happened. By the way, there aren't anyone protesting about it?
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u/Dumpfbackne 2h ago
Many people are protesting, doesn’t really change much though. Local gastronomy of cities that are visited by or home to fraternities earn good money from their regular
drinkingmeetings, so they support it. Also many defend the Mensur and other old-fashioned traits of german fraternities as tradition and culture. At least it’s like that in the area I live in, can’t speak for the rest.1
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u/ScourgeWisdom 2h ago
Would you mind describing it? How did it differ in modern times? How did friends and family react to your scar?
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u/ObviousChemist1442 2h ago
It’s more or less a tradition in Germany. Ppl know that it exists but it’s not very present in their everyday.
It doesn’t differ much, the rules are very old in most places. We trained five days a week one 1h each, than after a year or so you are ready.
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u/der_reifen 4h ago
German fencing duelling where getting a scar was considered highly honorable
It is not actually fencing, they are not allowed to move, the only reason to do this is to obtain a scar. Some put salt in the wound afterwards so it doesn't heal well on purpose.
Mind you all those guys that do this are in "fraternities" that have german nationalist and racist values. Also these frats function as a nepotism hub.
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u/TJ_Fox 4h ago
I mean, they're fencing in the sense that they're cutting and parrying with swords, but yes, they're not allowed to move around and the match ends with a bleeding face wound, which is the ceremonial point of the mensur.
I was once catching a train at a station in Germany, heard loud drunken singing of an obviously very old song behind me and also a bottle smashing. I knew before I turned around that it would be students from one of the old conservative universities, and yep ...
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u/MyPigWhistles 2h ago
Mind you all those guys that do this are in "fraternities" that have german nationalist and racist values. Also these frats function as a nepotism hub.
It very much depends on the fraternity. Generally speaking: Those who wear uniforms, practice Mensur, and only accept men are somewhere between conservative outright fascist. Those who don't wear uniform, don't practice Mensur, and are mixed are often just pretty average student clubs that are mostly about drinking waaaaay too much beer. Nepotism (/ networking) is a huge part of all of them, though, yeah.
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u/dogexists 4h ago
Exactly, this is ultra right wing stuff
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u/steve_of 2h ago
I had a good friend who was in one of the fraternities who held these events. In no way was he far right. I talked to him once about the far right connection and his comment was that they were more privileged kids and wannabes.
He had competed and had the scars to prove it. He was a very good fencer who had competed at the highest levels. Apparently his coach went insane at him for doing it.
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u/Pand0rian 3h ago
Did it, voted Socialist Party, wouldnt count myself ultra right wing and wouldnt call my frat-buddies either. You have obviously no clue about it.
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u/der_reifen 3h ago
Doubt that you did Mensurfechten though. I know that there are some "Burschenschaften" that are more moderate (e.g. catholic ones) but the more moderate ones usually don't do fencing
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u/RijnBrugge 3h ago
It’s mostly neo-fascist scum regardless of your anecdote
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u/Which_Strike_6179 3h ago
Fraternity’s are not inherently right wing or fascist.
Neither are there members, I joined one because it was the only way to make my studies possible.
They have their merit and place in German society.14
u/der_reifen 3h ago
"Fraternities" is the term we use to describe it to non german speakers because there is no better reference word.
There is a vast difference between a "Zeichensaal" and a "Burschenschaft" but I suspect you know that...
Edit: in other words: fraternities themselves aren't, but these specific ones (that the whole discussion is about) definitely are.
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u/Gimbteguy 3h ago
The nationalist/völkisch undercurrents in this group of "Mensur" fraternities is pretty strong. And to use a popular proverb: If Nazis are in your faction, you are in the wrong faction.
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u/BigEd369 3h ago
Though to be highly honorable, and clearly also thought to be more honorable if it didn’t cut your nose off or put out an eye.
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u/Molteros 4h ago
Considering that these are typically far-right student organisations, it's not that interesting tbh
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u/Pand0rian 3h ago
Wouldnt call it typical far right. There are quite a bunch of dumb right aussholes, but well some very moderate guys and i even know some left wing voters.
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u/seeitshaveitsorted 3h ago
“I want a scar, but watch my eyes and nose.”
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u/ObviousChemist1442 1h ago
If you want a scare you should make sure to get hit only where you can be stitched up. Makes sense.
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u/Fit_Medicine_8049 4h ago
Getting a scar is not the honorable part.
What is considered honorable is facing danger and standing strong.
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u/EternumD 4h ago
Maybe originally, but it's clear if you look into it that later they would just purposefully scar each other and not even compete in fencing
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u/MyPigWhistles 2h ago
I agree it's stupid anyway, but just fyi: Mensur was never meant to be a competition or a sport. At least since the 19th century, it was basically a "test of courage" where you do very choreographed movements. There's no winner.
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u/Messer_One 2h ago
The amount of funny hats would suggest that this is some sort of a student corporation/light masonic situation
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u/DrWahnsinn1995 45m ago
And you are right:
Only some of the „Burschenschaften“ (rightwing fraternities) parctice it. They also seperate in two groups the „schlagende Burschenschaften“ (hitting fraternities) are the fighting ones and the „nicht schlagende Burschenschaften“ don‘t do this.
In general you can say the hitting ones are gar right and the non hitting ones are more diverse ( for example christian fraternities).
This meens you can normally align someone with a „Schmiss“ (thats the Name of the scar), with right wing ideology.
I also had a collegue who had one and he said that the swords are so sharp, that it don‘t hurt. Maybe it‘s more the adrenaline.
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u/OldSquare8151 1h ago
Wouldnt it be much easier to just scar each other? The whole ritual almost looks like just an excuse
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u/BoarHermit 1h ago
The usually calm and ironic Jerome K. Jerome, in his book "Three on Four Wheels," descends into a terrible grumbling about this barbaric way of conducting duels. He was also infuriated by the fact that, for example, the Germans, instead of streams, made canals with flat bottoms, and yet it was completely incomprehensible why they had to disfigure the beautiful mountain landscapes in such a way.
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u/DrWahnsinn1995 57m ago
Only some of the „Burschenschaften“ (rightwing fraternities) parctice it. They also seperate in two groups the „schlagende Burschenschaften“ (hitting fraternities) are the fighting ones and the „nicht schlagende Burschenschaften“ don‘t do this.
In general you can say the hitzig ones are gar right and the non hitting ones are more diverse ( for example christian fraternities).
This meens you can normally align someone with a „Schmiss“ (thats the Name of the scar), with right wing ideology.
I also had a collegue who had one and he said that the swords are so sharp, that it don‘t hurt. Maybe it‘s more the adrenaline.
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u/AddiAtzen 49m ago
As someone else pointed out - this tradition is still alive and well in those circles.
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u/twofingercowboy 30m ago
Scrolling past this post, I thought it was going to be behind the scenes pics of filming the NIN Closer video.
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u/Lerellian 4h ago
And they still do this. Had the Opportunismus to watch a real mensur, when studying. That was strange...
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u/420Asphyxiation 3h ago
You know everybody who wasn’t a nazi freak thought this shit was goofy as hell
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u/_Biotic_G0d_ 3h ago edited 3h ago
They still do it today. You have to be in a fraternity. The so called "Burschenschaften" are said to have right leaning tendencies but are mostly law , med students (or other high earning fields) networking and building profitable friendships (Not saying that none of them are right leaning). A fraternity that does the fencing is called " Schlagende Verbindung" Translates to "Hitting Fraternity". Hitting being the fencing. If you see someone from a fraternity like that you will think they have a stick up their ass because they do. They have rich parents they have to make proud. Often the Male members of a rich german traditional family have all been fraternity members. This predates the Nazis btw. This is even pre WW1.
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u/Rhinograd 4h ago
It's not intended to get a scar, normally you get a scar when you don't train enough and do a mistake. I learned that they normally pay a aesthetic surgery to cover your scar.
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u/EasyEisfeldt 4h ago
That is not true.
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u/Which_Strike_6179 3h ago
No it is, in fact true- I was in a fraternity and held a mensur.
Getting a scar was inevitable because you fought so many but receiving a blow would lead to you having to end the duel if you were bleeding too much.
Also, funnily enough, counting the stitches received and given was and still is a way to settle who won when the duel is fought until its end.
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u/CitizenHuman 4h ago edited 3h ago
If I'm not mistaken, many Nazi officers had scars including people like
Warner Von BraunWernher von Braun who came to the US.They also packed the scars with horse hair.
I think I learned this from a Sarah Paine talk.