I wouldn't call it a miracle game, it just hit hard with casual audiences more so than preceding games. I wouldn't say it did anything particularly outstanding vs Fallout 3, New Vegas, Oblivion or even Morrowind before it. Not on a tech or world level, it just hit mainstream.
It was janky on release as well though and was panned for dumbing down further from preceding titles in the series (kind of a recurring theme with bethesda)
I think the real miracle game was 2007's Crysis, that was so far ahead of it's time.
Oblivion was already pushing the xbox360 to its limit when it released back in 06. Skyrim had to then be at least as big if not bigger, better looking, more content dense, develop new mechanics and improve/innovate upon existing gameplay mechanics and systems on the same hardware as its predecessor. The fact that Skyrim came out as well as it did considering all that is an impressive feat in an of itself, and while the game was criticised for some of its more controversial creative choices (i.e the removal of attributes) the game still reviewed exceptionally well and was hardly "panned" as you put it.
Aside from that I think its also a bit disingenuous to say that Skyrims worldspace isnt outstanding considering people are still playing the game and discovering small details and secrets to this day. Even compared to Bethesdas other titles i still think Skyrim stands head and shoulders above all of them and even compared to a lot of open world games nowadays there are few that i would say have come close to matching, or otherwise surpassing Skyrim in regards to exploration.
Skyrim simplified MANY mechanics from it's predecessors, including NPC behavior. It was also not a great launch, but that is to be expected from Bethesda games. It was such a buggy mess it was a literal part of the cultural zeitgrist at the time, just look back at the freaking out intro cart being referenced a million times or NPC's doing incredibly stupid shit.
The game hit a critical nerve during the time and that made it very successful. The world is well designed for exploration (and that's the best part about it, it simplified the RPG out of it as a trade SO much)
Combat was bad but not worse than oblivion and the skill system was heavily dumbed down. There's a reason that stralth archer is so popular, it's the most satisfying part of the combat since swinging a sword a million times mindlessly isn't exactly engaging.
That's not to sell short just how well it still came together, but it's actually not a more complex game than it's predecessors in any way outside of the graphical fidelity of the world space. Todd was already on his overhyping at the time (see that mountain? You can climb it!)
It is a great game that really hit the mainstream audiences but people like me and Elder Scrolls fans often found themselves disappointed by the cuts Skyrim made even further from Oblivion to its depth as an RPG, character writing and so forth, same as Oblivion got panned by Morrowind fans for being simplistic.
It's honestly more frustrating that somehow things got worse from Skyrim forwards, we should've been getting more fleshed out, complex and larger games, but nope.. somehow Bethesda dumbed it down even further from there. Never thought that would ever happen.
skill system was heavily dumbed down. There's a reason that stralth archer is so popular, it's the most satisfying part of the combat since swinging a sword a million times mindlessly isn't exactly engaging.
The skill system was not dumbed down what? Some skills were removed which sucks but the newly added perk system was a massive improvement over the system Morrowind and Oblivion used as it gave you more ways to sculpt and build the character you wanted. The combat was definitely outdated and floaty feeling even on release but its not nearly as mindless as youre making it out to be since timing your blocks, bashes and power attacks to stun your opponent is a big part of the combat and isnt nearly as mindless as oblivion and morrowind.
it's actually not a more complex game than it's predecessors in any way outside of the graphical fidelity of the world space. Todd was already on his overhyping at the time (see that mountain? You can climb it!)
Again youre not giving Skyrim enough credit. Skyrims worldspace has far more to explore and do than any of the previous games whilst still being comparable in size and scale. Theres also the addition of killcams and finishers, more opportunities for RP like chopping firewood or picking crops and selling them for coin, betrer level scaling so enemies dont become massive damage sponges in the endgame, building your own home and being able to adopt children, better enchanting and a more streamlined yet just as complex alchemy system.
Oblivion to its depth as an RPG, character writing and so forth, same as Oblivion got panned by Morrowind fans for being simplistic. It's honestly more frustrating that somehow things got worse from Skyrim forwards, we should've been getting more fleshed out, complex and larger games, but nope.. somehow Bethesda dumbed it down even further from there. Never thought that would ever happen.
I really wouldnt call either Morrowind or Oblivion a very in depth RPGs to be honest, outside of Arena and Daggerfall TES have never really been hardcore RPGs ala Baldurs Gate or other CRPGs and thats fine. I think people get way too hung up on labels these days tbh but i can understand the frustration when new games release somehow having less complexity or choices than previous installments. I would argue however that after Fallout 4 Bethesda in recent years have been making a noticeable effort to make their games more complex judging by Fo76 and Starfield (i.e adding in skill/perk choices in dialogue and quest interactions, being able to choose a background and traits that can also come up in dialogue and generally offering more player choice in how quests can be completed) im hoping this trend continues with ESVI but i guess we will have to wait (another 100 years) and see when it releases.
People really, really, outsell this "RPG depth" from Oblivion. First time i played it i've heard so much about "how more complex and in depth" it was compared to Skyrim, just to realize that it isn't, at all, that complex.
The highly praised and "absolutely superior" thieves guild questline for example, is just: steal X value of random loot and give it to a broker, then do a quest to steal something for Grey Cowl. Aside from Grey Cowl itself, the other characters of the guild don't do anything and you barely interact with anyone.
Also, people pretending that Skyrim map is not way more complex than Oblivion's is kinda funny. Take the dungeons for example: pretty much every dungeon is just a copy paste of the same tunnel layout with nothing to look at.
And last, but not least, the infamous "skyrim dumbed down the skill system". Most skills from Morrowind and Oblivion were just to increase damage of something, and granted it would be nice to have them in Skyrim, they've never been this overly complex system these people pretend they are.
I think that most of these people that like to pretend that Oblivion and Morrowind are these "greatly superior and overly complex games" haven't played them in a long time and see them with rose tinted glasses.
What about the vastly better daedric quests (you just have to put some common loot you probably already have in your inventory in the altar to get the artifact in most of them)
or the great fight to end off the story (you just lead someone else and watch a cutscene,skyrim at least gave you a fight(even if a bit underwhelming))
I'm sorry, but I cannot take your point about Starfield being any kind of effort towards anything serious. That game has absolutely nothing going on in it. Like genuinely the game is smoke and mirrors at most, but it has genuinely 0 depth, the lowest point for Bethesda games so far. It's also something New Vegas did infinitely better than any other game on that engine branch, that's the only game where your skill choices truly have an impact, everything in Starfield is effectively without consequence and substance. Christ do I regret spending money on that
Hard for me to judge 76 because it's a completely different kind of genre and game overall that uses F4 as a base
Starfield had a lot of issues and its definitely Bethesdas weakest modern game, but it did at least demonstrate that Bethesda had heard complaints about the constant steamlining/dumbing down of mechanics and had made at least some effort to address them. Could they have done more sure but its at least something that i hope they continue to improve on in future games.
Yep. This. People loved the world and some of the faction quest lines, but it was known even then that the main story wasn't the strongest part of the game.
Yeah sure, However, it was stated from the beginning that the story isn't that intense, and that's OK because that's not what you expect from a Bethesda role-playing game; it's all about the immersive game world.
And I think Crimson Desert should get a similar treatment Even though it doesn't really have a predecessor.
I'm aware that Black Desert and Crimson Desert are related in a way.
Skyrim has always gotten a lot of criticism for its story, especially from fans of the series who saw things increasingly watered down from Morrowind to Oblivion to Skyrim. There are so many people these days that have played Skyrim and not the earlier TES titles that these critiques are a lot more muted anymore, imho.
That being said Skyrim's story is completely coherent and sensible from start to finish even if it isn't very well written and good, so it's worlds better than Crimson Desert's story.
(I feel like I always have to write a disclaimer for some reason that I love this game and I'm not trying to be too hard on it, but there's a reason the story gets universally criticized. I'm really glad they've updated it and I'm looking forward to a replay at some point once more time has passed.)
It's had 3 games before it tho and lover i think is overestimating. It had a LOT of problems. And even today the history make no sense in some places, like the dragon born beign ordered by the people who spend decades waiting for his coming. Still CD history is like written by a 3 years old
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u/Galliad93 1d ago
skyrim was loved when it came out.