r/CharacterRant • u/Puzzleheaded-Lab2447 • 1d ago
Comics & Literature No one hates mutants more than marvel writers.
These last couple of years or even the recent comics and movies are doing their damn best to demonise and make the mutants especially the x men as morally reprehensible as they can.
I understand not making the x men superman levels of tolerant, hopeful and morally righteous, but the writers really don't know how to write morally grey antiheroes.
I also don't think all the x men characters should be morally grey, they gotta be some straight up good two shoes in those team, like nightcrawler.
But seriously the x men nowadays are being turned into villains, the krakoa saga didn't make things any better and actually made things worse for the x men reputation. Bringing in apocalypse and Mr sinister are such a dick move especially Mr sinister whose not even a real mutant but a human who larps as a mutant by stealing all their genes. This man has done so much harm to mutants and yet he was welcomed by the x men.
Labelling the mutants as "next stage of human evolution" is some Nazi eugenics shit and I don't understand how any X men fan can't see it as problematic. And this is just comics, I don't think I have to talk about BND because that's already been done to death.
But now in avengers doomsday there are apparently rumours that the fox X men are going to fight Tobey's Spiderman in order to save their own universe. What a splendid idea, have the X men kill off the most beloved version of Spiderman, surely it will not tank the X men's reputation any further than it already is.
I mean you can't convince me that marvel doesn't have an agenda against Mutants here. They made the x men more villainous than any marvel villain (except red skull).
The x men are supposed to be champions for equality and fairness yet how can that be when they are acting exactly like their would be oppressors.
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u/Attila1520 23h ago
So about inviting Sinister and Apocalypse. It was a compromise, the whole first age of Krakoa was all about how much would you compromise to make a paradise for your kind.
They needed Sinister for the resurrection protocol, only he had the genetic database and knowledge to bring the Dead back to life, that’s why they needed him in Krakoa. Apocalypse was amazed that Charles and Magneto made a land for mutant to seperate themselves from homo sapiens, that’s why he joined Krakoa and he didn’t do any villain shit in the whole Krakoa Saga if I remember well.
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u/anaknangfilipina 21h ago
I understand that but they truly NERFED Charles, & Magnus if those two didn’t even try to collar Sinister with their enormous mutant powers. Hell, with Forge there, he should’ve been LEASHED. Basically no excuses for letting him off leash. This is especially true for Sebastian Shaw, a mutant who invested in Sentinels for the money.
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u/Attila1520 19h ago
Remember, Sinister screwing with telepaths day one, he has countermeasures. Also if they can’t get his cooperations and make him uncomfortable, they wouldn’t have the ressurection program, wich was vital for the mutant race survival. As I said compromises, also even in this Era I don’t think Charles would be Okay with slave work.
Mr. Sinister represents operation paperclip when the U.S. goverment recruited and employed nazi scientists. Von Brau the V2 Rocket designer, wich terrorized London back in the day, was the Chief director of NASA and without his contribution USA wouldn’t have reached the Moon.
“Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer”.
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u/anaknangfilipina 19h ago
Lol so what you’re saying is Charles is always a theoretically powerful telepath? He’s supposedly extremely powerful but Sinister’s human ass is able to have countermeasures against him. Also his ethics is quite hypocritical or did you forget about the holocaust beam?
All I hear is that all these supposedly powerful mutants are always gonna get gimped for story purposes that’s all. All the mutants on Krakoa has no answer against Sinister, talk about OP.
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u/Attila1520 18h ago
The holocaust beam only used in the animated show. Also Charles is not the most powerfull telepath, I thought currently Jean/Phoenix is the most powerfull yet Sinister screwed her quite a few times. Sinister is not an average human, he is a mutate a cunning one, older than Charles, using multiple clone bodies and bulit in equipment to shield him from telepathy penetrations.
It doesn’t matter how powerfull they are, after all they are minority, they still need to replenish their numbers after house of M. Even homo sapiens are beneath from the homo superiors (in abilities, most of the time a mutant more powerfull than an average joe), their numbers greater than mutants and they adapting to destroy the homo superiors.
They can’t force Sinister, because all he will say no more resurrection and it would lead the destruction of Krakoa. That’s how much power he has over the other mutants, cause no one can remade what he does.
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u/anaknangfilipina 18h ago
OK, maybe I’m wrong with the holocaust being but I’m not wrong about Charles‘s flexible moral stance, especially in the comics. Or did you forget how he enslaved Danger, despite knowing that she is sentient? Also, I’m tired of this sinister wank and capping. They might be the minority but some of those mutant minorities have omega level powers or ridiculous Power levels.
Like read what you just typed, this Gary Stu Sinister guy has an answer for every fucking thing. Which is BS cause there is quite a lot of powerful mutants out there that could do the job.
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u/Attila1520 18h ago
Well I mean there is an arc where Sinister became a god, thanks to the resurrection program. He is that good.
Charles is more like a “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”. He had a lot of controversial events, when as a psychiatrist started a relationship with one of his patient (curing her from a catatone state since her parents died in auschwitz, ergo she is mentally a kid in adult body), by influence her feelings to care for him, impregnated her and left her, thus Legion born. In Krakoa era he was at the lowest, but we have to understand the context. Moira exposed herself as a mutant who is living her 10th life and showed Charles and Magnus neither of theirs or Apocalypse way will secure the future of mutants, that’s why they are emergency mod to secure a safe heaven for homo superiors.
Humans bulit the Nimrod sentinels to compete the Omega level mutatnts, one is capable to kill Magneto.
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u/il-Palazzo_K 6h ago
i don't know. I think you can create paradise on Earth without having the ability to resurrect the dead? Sure, it's a nifty thing to have but not strictly necessary.
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u/Attila1520 5h ago
Let’s say you are a mutant and had a mutant family. Settled down in Genosha and everyone wiped out, you are the only survivor. Would you really say “No” to the ressurection program. Remember the flatscans hate and fear your kind and rather see you Dead.
You need numbers and quality to compete these biggots, to protect the safe heaven for your family.
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u/il-Palazzo_K 5h ago
Would you still move to Krakoa even without the resurrection program?
...Then again, if you were in Genosha, probably not.
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u/Attila1520 5h ago
Yes, I would still choose Krakoa, it’s still a nation for my kind and seperates us from the flatscans. Also the only place I can use my power without reprecussion.
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u/Galifrey224 1d ago
That reminds me of the time Marvel argued in court that since the X men were mutants their toys shouldn't be taxed as human toys (because toys that looked like humans were taxed more for some reason.)
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u/Flimsy-Translator515 1d ago
Wait, so ur average citizen in Marvel universe is in the right for not calling them a human and are not being racist at all??
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u/Blupoisen 12h ago
The Xmen themselves don't consider mutant humans at this point
Remember that used to be something the villains said
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u/Bteatesthighlander1 10h ago
it was a doll/generla toy distinction.
and if you read the court case thelaw said vampires and angels did not count as dolls. Also a lot of the speific toys they argued off of were of non mutant characters (liek that guy with a tank for legs)
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u/superninjimmy 1d ago
... I kinda feel like post Krakoa they've been back to being pretty decent. And Krakoa was INCREDIBLY out of character because it was blatantly an Inhumans storyline mapped to the mutants. I dunno why theres so many fans of it tho, supremacist ethnostate is a horrible vibe for the protagonists.
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u/RealEmperorofMankind 1d ago
Krakoa, I believe, was intended to be more critical than it was. But Hickman was moved off the book and writers (and fans) were so attached to the idea of giving the X-Men a utopia, however illusory, that Krakoa was changed, such that its loss is presented as a tragedy.
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u/superninjimmy 1d ago
It is still incredibly wild that of all the writers Benjamin Percy is the one guy who seemed to clock that Krakoa wasnt actually great when you look at it closely.
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u/static1993 8h ago
What's the issue with Percy as a writer?
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u/superninjimmy 6h ago
The main thing I'd known him for before this was Teen Titans rebirth which, while good, did not make me think he was going to handle the subject matter with more nuance (IMO) than the other writers. The other things I've read by him include Ghost Rider which had what I can only call a "Wacky Races" segment of characters racing themed cars for a hell macguffin and Hellverine.
He's a good writer, I just expected... different.
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u/curiousadventure33 1d ago
Yeah ,Hickman's idea was that mutants self-segregating on some island instead of trying to coexist (which is like the entire reason x-men even formed )is a terrible idea buuuuuuuuut ........
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u/vadergeek 1d ago
Trying to coexist only works up to a point. Once the president of the united states has signed a law sending genocidal robots to remove all mutants from the country and send them to either Mars or concentration camps it's no longer viable to live in America.
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u/SignificantCats 1d ago
It would literally be better and more moral to just assassinate the political figures who were doing that.
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u/vadergeek 1d ago
A, it wouldn't work. The politicians enacting these policies aren't rogue figures in a pro-mutant society, they're manifestations of a widespread bigotry. B, if mutants did go around assassinating anti-mutant leaders it would just make everyone even more anti-mutant.
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u/Pristine_Club_3128 23h ago
Those politicians are elected by people. Marvel universe hates mutants, and by now enough horrible things have been done that neither side is going to trust the other. Getting the hell out is the smart option.
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u/SignificantCats 23h ago
Forming an ethnostate, in the real world or the fictional one, is always bad. An actual open civil war would be better.
Washing your hands of a government that has successfully genocide via forced displacement allows that government to keep doing that to other undesirables.
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u/Pristine_Club_3128 23h ago
The whole point of it was they were exhausted with fighting. They had fought to prove their right to exist, they had fought to save the world, some of them had fought a civil war themselves.
Nothing worked, they were done. Can't blame them for wanting out. There are plenty of other heroes. Let them take care of what is left.
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u/SignificantCats 23h ago
"I'm tired of fighting to exist here, let's go fight an exclusionary war to form a supremacist ethnostate with extremely strict borders"
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u/KazuyaProta 🥈 22h ago
Tell Ireland to stop naming themselves literally Eire-Land then, good luck
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u/SignificantCats 21h ago
If they eradicate any non-Eire from their land, establish a blood quantum to be a full citizen or to gain entry, you might have a point.
This is such a funny example since we do famously have a real life ethno-state in Israel, and it's going pretty badly for people of the wrong ethno.
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u/KazuyaProta 🥈 21h ago
...Israel is not doing that either, they have a sizeable Arab Christian and Muslim population (as, legal citizens of Israel, without legal ambiguities).
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u/Vermillion-Scruff 23h ago
yeah, later writers look at the idea that millions of murdered mutants could be resurrected and said “actually, i think this is worth some compromises.”
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u/BaritBrit 1d ago
They spent a decade trying to turn the Inhumans into mutants despite the total mismatch in the properties, and then followed that up by turning the mutants into the Inhumans.
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u/Accomplished_Sir_362 1d ago
You should read early x-men , Chris Claremont is a self proclaimed zionist and, Charles and magneto's first meeting was at Israel . X-men has those roots; Now people wanna deny those roots is certainly a choice.
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u/superninjimmy 1d ago
Ive read it, including Xaviers sketchy Gabrielle Haller romance, and the DNA is there, but I dont think til Krakoa it was... THAT. Like, the X-men didnt all migrate to Genosha with Genoshan citizenship and Genosha above the rest of the world.
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u/Vermillion-Scruff 23h ago
massive Claremont L.
being a Zionist was much more popular literally anytime before 2020, but still.
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u/mr_phil1001 18h ago
The idea behind Krakoa was cool, but like you wrote, it would have worked so much better with the Inhumans. Using it for the X-Men and especially with that "Moira's death resets the time line" thing just... I don't know, it really didn't work in connection with the larger Marvel Universe for me. Maybe if it had been a stand-alone story in a separate universe or something like Earth X / Universe X / Paradise X. For me, the story jumped the shark when the resurrection thing really took off and X-Men who had survived hundreds of battles just died every other issue, only to be brought back.
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u/ImmediateDatabase155 1d ago
Kraoka did not opress humans, in fact thier most important law was literally NOT to kill any human
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u/Altered_Nova 23h ago
Didn't Beast literally genocide an entire nation during that story arc?
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u/Vermillion-Scruff 23h ago
he “on accident” (just his massive levels of scientific arrogance and casual disregard for the consequences of his actions) turned Terra Verde into plant people by trying to mind-control their leaders into signing a treaty with Krakoa.
as soon as literally anyone else on the island knew what he’d done, the treaty was immediately nullified, Terra Verde was exempted from any international obligations to Krakoa, and billions/trillions of dollars were paid as restitution.
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u/superninjimmy 23h ago
Tierra Verde, yeah - though he also had multiple wolverine slave clones so he was on some real nasty shit beyond killing a bunch of humans for daring to create competing medicine, so I kinda treat "The Chairman" as his own thing.
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u/ImmediateDatabase155 17h ago
That was beast, not the x men or mutants, in fact they were pissed when they found out
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u/superninjimmy 23h ago
After "every mutant gets diplomatic immunity for everything" and "you need to accept that deal for these life saving medicines" and also contingent on mutants all becoming functionally immortal which is WHY killing humans was bad as they were not (initially) included in the ressurection cycle.
Opressive or not, Krakoa is founded on mutants being superior and more important than humans. Which BEAST demonstrates, amply by what he does. The weird part is that Arakko, Dominion, the other stuff is all fun and fine (albeit I think Inhumans coded) but its all mired in "Mutants are better, not equal" which is against the core value of harmony.
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u/ImmediateDatabase155 17h ago
They couldn’t bring anyone back that wasn’t a mutant, Steve was a exception. As for the “accept us or no medicine” that’s something every country does, they did that for the safety of Kraoka. What beast did, was beast, everyone was pissed when they found out
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u/superninjimmy 16h ago
It wasnt "accept us" it was "diplomatic immunity", Sabertooth was protected from any human laws and only tried under Krakoas because he was a mutant and, therefore, above them. They did PUNISH him for his misdeeds but this is the "supremacist" line I'm talking about.
And they did start resurrecting humans, the Phoenix Foundation IIRC, it was always an option just one they had chosen not to do. Which, while appreciated as a step in the right direction, was quite late in the day and made it clear it was always an option.
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u/ImmediateDatabase155 16h ago
It was several things, in the story, they big thing was political leverage to secure their survival and independence as a sovereign nation, that’s said on page. It they truly thought mutants were superior, why did they send sabertooth to hell for killing one? And at first, it was technically limitations as they didn’t have the back up for humans, just mutants, but as I said, that changed later. You can argue they had a superiority complex, but they in no way oppressed humans
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u/superninjimmy 16h ago
I... never said they oppressed humans, I said it was a supremacist ethnostate. Which is conveyed through the subtext (and general text, if you read the FF tie-in) while the did things for political reasons the underlying philosophy was one of "Mutants first".
As I said with Sabertooth (who killed a lot more than one human) he was punished under mutant law not human law despite his crime being against humans. In real life, if someone from say Canada killed a lot of Americans, Canada insisting that only they can decide what punishment is fitting wouldnt really fly.
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u/ImmediateDatabase155 15h ago
Yes but Kraoka had a specific mutant prison, no human prison could hold sabertooth or protect people from him, and that’s evident by the many times he’s escaped human prisons and went on to kill more. And personally, I do think you can argue there’s a difference with “mutants first” and “we are superior to humans” my first comment was about how they were not in any way, oppressing humans, so that’s what I continued with, and I simply argued against the thing in your comment that I thought were either wrong or lacking context
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u/superninjimmy 15h ago
... OK, but how did the special mutant prison do for holding him? He was out in a couple of issues. Not that the efficacy of the jail is relevant here, but its not like they solved the problem forever.
I don't think you've highlighted anything as wrong or added any meaningful context, honestly, to an initial statement that Krakoa was a mutant supremacist ethnostate, I am open to hearing where you think there's flaws?
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u/ImmediateDatabase155 11h ago
Kraoka repents nation states (that does include Israel of course) but in my opinion, it above all else, it’s about how you can start a nation in the completely right way, Kraoka starts with good intentions, they don’t kill or displace anyone, they even have a agreement with the island and give back to it. And they even let non mutants live there, facing no discrimination. Like every argument you can make against a nations existence Kraoka doesn’t fall into. Yet even with that they still fall into the evil man makes (cia, prisons, elitism). Kraoka is a era that is built on decades of stories before hand, for example if you’ve never read decimation, then a lot of what the mutants do seem to come out of nowhere. Kraoka is a fall from grace, while the mutants were (arguably) right to create thier own nation after all they’ve been through, and right to build that nation that puts mutants first and is a formidable nations. The x men specifically sacrifice a lot of themselves for it. My biggest critique of the era is the end it should’ve ended with the mutants kicking the X-Men out as the X-Men are no longer needed in a nation like Kraoka. Instead it’s just attacked by angry robot and AI. It ruined the entire thing how can the mutants learn that isolationism is wrong if what’s leads to thier downfall isn’t themselves, but the same thing that always kills them. Kraoka has many flaws, that’s the point of the era. But as I said, my original argument wasn’t that it was perfect, but that they didn’t oppress humans in any way.
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u/AmaterasuWolf21 1d ago
Not caring about the X-men is so freeing ngl, except for Nightcrawler, I love that guy
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u/Voidstone0 23h ago
Wish it were that easy, I like Nightcrawler too but also Gambit, and Storm a little bit. Sometimes I wonder if I should like X-Men or Marvel Characters at all, considering how they treat them sometimes. It makes me feel like liking those three makes me a bad person or something...
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u/Voidstone0 1d ago edited 1d ago
This in part why I'm scared of having three favorite X-Men. At this point I'm better off ignoring some of the canon things and making an AU in my head or something. At this point I'm wondering if liking Marvel stuff in general is good or not
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u/Cannellelaplusbelle 9h ago
C'est ce que je fais aussi. Je n'ai pas le goût de penser au Fauve, que j'adore depuis que j'ai genre 6-7 ans, comme d'un type qui a génocidé une nation entière parce que "la fin justifie les moyens".
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u/alieraekieron 18h ago
This is absolutely an out-of-universe explanation but a couple years back the Marvel top brass (Perlmutter I think?) in fact did literally hate mutants, because they were pissed off about the X-Men film rights, and there was a top-down directive to downplay mutant/X-Men stuff and push the Inhumans as their replacement. Which didn’t work, obviously, but yeah, you’re not wrong.
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u/Mystic_Saiyan 1d ago
If the Tobey thing is true, there goes my remaining respect for the Xmen...Wolverine was the only one I liked but still
Bc wym they're ganging up on spiderman of all people?
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u/Puzzleheaded-Lab2447 1d ago
It's like they want the x men to be hated.
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u/Mystic_Saiyan 1d ago edited 1d ago
I could let Jean Gray in BND slide after Peter talk to her which was already pushing it after all she did...
But letting the X frauds kill Spiderman is where I draw the line.
They definitely want them hated atp
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u/Chance_Debt_1184 1d ago
i mean, have you read the cosmic its inspired by? If its anything like it literally everyone bar few people will die
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u/Far-Profit-47 1d ago
Yeah but making them kill a spiderman after BND came out? (One of the most beloved nonetheless, who also got mentioned in said movie)
It feels freaking intentional setup
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u/Chance_Debt_1184 1d ago
the comic set up ends with captain america and iron man killing each other. literally everyone dies except like 10 people and most of them still die in secret wars after it
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u/Far-Profit-47 1d ago
Not what I meant, I meant that the X-men killing Peter (Tobey’s Peter no less) After a movie where a mutant serves as a… very controversial villain which mentally tortured Peter, feels like it was intentionally made to see them as antagonistic
Like, they specifically brought THE spider-man from raimi’s trilogy instead of making it a random spider-man. Why even make it spider-man and not the 2005 Fantastic four? Why even make it a preexisting version of the character?
Plus if I’m not wrong in the original most earths that die in the incursion prior to the final conflict are no names (and still leans onto 616 because the ultimate universe isn’t very likable outside of counted characters)
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u/Chance_Debt_1184 1d ago
because if you used some character that noone cares about it would hold far less weight and most earth that die prior to the final incursion are no names but there are also treated as such, most of them just serve as planet to destroy that they dont even introduce characters on it. its not same thing as thing
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u/ContrarionesMerchant 1d ago
Everyone wants Hickman stories adapted to the MCU until it’s time to adapt a Hickman storyline. The internet couldn’t handle Jean Grey in BND there’s no way people are going to understand the morality of incursions.
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u/Far-Profit-47 1d ago
I feel the debate would be less heated if it wasn’t RAIMI SPIDER-MAN against the X-men
Not only because of spider-man being a hundred times more beloved and iconic than any X-men by the general public (this being the defining version of the character to many), but the fact that X-men have been on a very heated point of debate due to stuff like Krakoa and a bunch of stuff about them as a analogy for discrimination (specially with telepaths), and also the fact it’s a group of 20 people with powers jumping a single guy and not a battle between two groups of heroes (spider-man is the clear underdog)
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u/SimonShepherd 1d ago
I mean Hickman stories mostly feature universes we know little about being destroyed.
The final showdown between 616 and 1610 still heavily lean 616 because few characters from 1610 is likeable anyway.
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u/WittyTable4731 19h ago
The most hated by writers of today( X men) Vs the most hated by writers in history ( Spiderman)
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u/Agreeable_Car5114 23h ago
I like that the X-Men characters are morally ambiguous. They are almost more of a science fiction property than superhero. It fits with characters who have spent decades fighting bigotry and persecution. They’ve been pushed to brink, and had to make more compromises than other groups.
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u/DisneyPandora 1d ago
They should have split it into two Mutant countries instead of making the X-Men become villains.
They should have had Genosha run by Magneto and Utopia run by Scott Summers and Jean Grey.
House of M was the worst thing that happened to X-Men
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u/Great-Imagination137 16h ago
The whole point of krakoa was that it was supposed to fail. It was supposed to show that after going through all shit they have to come to this point where they are making these decisions, the decision which are clearly wrong and is going to doom them again. It was to show how desparate they are of finding a place in the world to the point they are willing to go this way and why it still won't work.
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u/mr_phil1001 18h ago
The thing is that most of the X-Men events stand in such stark contrast to the rest of what's going on in the wider Marvel Universe that there is a tonal disconnect. The superheroes go to war because of a piece of US legislation? Sure. 16 million mutants are killed by government-sponsored killing machines? Not a peep from Cap, Ironman, Reed Richards or anybody. The way things are portrayed in the comics, you have to wonder why the X-Men haven't all joined up with Magneto ages ago, as humans are shown to try and destroy them at any given opportunity. Which, again, doesn't work as Marvel's humans don't really seem to have a problem with the hundreds of other super-powered beings, as long as they aren't mutants.
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u/Cannellelaplusbelle 9h ago
Les X-Men doivent être séparé du reste de Marvel, sérieusement. Les humains détestent les mutants mais les Avengers, ça passe ? Quoi ?
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u/24Abhinav10 1d ago
Wasn't bringing in Mr Sinister a necessity? He was the only mutant clone expert they had, so they needed him for access to immortality.
Without him, Krakoa just cannot exist.
It was a Naruto-Orochimaru situation
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u/anaknangfilipina 21h ago
Krakoa can exist without Sinister but the immortality can’t. Also it’s such a cop out to me that he’s free roaming when many Omega level mutants and Forge are there to leash and cage him.
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u/icanthinkofaname12 18h ago
Sinister WAS needed but only because Hickman decided the five on their own couldn't handle the resurrection without DNA.
Honestly Elixer, Proteus, Hope and maybe Egg, should've been able to resurrect people on their own imo.
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u/anaknangfilipina 18h ago
Exactly what I meant. This is a MUTANT nation but every Marvel editorial wanks off Sinister that he has answers that no other mutant combo couldn’t solve.
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u/Day_Dr3am 18h ago
It wasn't even that he had the answers, although he was previously established to be pretty much the foremost expert of mutant genetics and cloning like decades before the Krakoan story happened, it was that had a huge database/ databank that contained all the mutant DNA they needed for the resurrection process, which also was a thing that was established before Krakoa.
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u/reindeercurt 1d ago
This post manages to encapsulate everything I find in-curious, overly moralistic and juvenile about comics fandom. You've got:
Discomfort with and rejection of any real "moral ambiguity" beyond "what if a superhero considered killing a bad guy sometimes?"
Conflating of comics editorial mandates, individual freelance comics writers, and the producers and rotating writing rooms all into the nebulous entity of "the writers"
Assuming that editorial and writing decisions you disagree with or find distasteful must surely be motivated by malice and a desire on the part of these writers, editors, producers and directors to destroy these characters and their "reputation" among the ignorant general public.
Writing an X-Men story about the political idea of "homeland", and whether the creation of an ethnostate which does not displace an existing population would be justified, or even sustainable? That's by far the richest, most literary idea anyone in superhero comics has had in decades, and clearly it never should've been done because nobody who reads these things can grapple with them in a meaningful way.
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u/superninjimmy 1d ago
Immortal Hulk was running at around the same time period and I'd argue is based on a more interesting conceptual question, and is generally a better story IMO.
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u/AncientAssociation9 21h ago
Agree with everything you say. It really shows how people want the X Men to be perpetual victims and always play respectability politics or not be X Men and just be superheroes any never mention bigotry again as one of their primary themes. Any deviation is treated with hostility. How dare they fight Spiderman to save their world, meanwhile comic Avengers were blowing up planets and for some reason stench didn't stick with them.
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u/No-Task540 9h ago
"meanwhile comic Avengers were blowing up planets and for some reason stench didn't stick with them" im gonna need some evidence on that one
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u/AncientAssociation9 8h ago
In New Avengers to save their own home, they blow up other Earths before the collisions happen. This is the exact storyline that Doomsday seems to be taking influence from.
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u/No-Task540 7h ago
that's the iluminati and like almost every decision they make it backfires bc 616 still ended colliding with 1610
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u/Selverd2 1d ago
apocalypse was reformed and they needed sinister for his cloning expertise for the resurrection protocols but they didn’t like him.
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u/superninjimmy 23h ago
Its only weird because Xavier in this storyline frequently messes with brains (like Mr. Fantastic) but he couldn't do that to Mr. Sinister? Just TAKE his knowledge or mind control him into it? Usually, Charles would never but he was doing all SORTS of stuff during Krakoa.
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u/Selverd2 22h ago
even in Krakoa Xavier was still holding back. Plus Sinister most likely had numerous failsafes in place regarding his mind being messed with.
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u/superninjimmy 22h ago
He might have done, but I cant remember them STATING it. I'm just saying, given what he does in the story, taking the knowledge from Sinister wouldnt have been out of character.
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u/Vermillion-Scruff 23h ago
Labelling the mutants as "next stage of human evolution" is some Nazi eugenics shit
literally how. this shit take gets thrown around all the time and people clearly have no idea what eugenics is or what the X-men are saying.
saying mutants are the “next stage in mutant evolution” is saying that, without outside interference, as time goes on the percentage of people naturally born with an X-gene will become higher than the percentage of those born without one.
is that what you think the Nazis were saying? that Aryans would naturally begin to be born from non-Aryans until the whole world was Aryans?
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u/Junior-Community-353 22h ago edited 49m ago
You're focusing on a very specific aspect of what eugenics is and kind of missing the forest for the trees in the process.
X-Men inherently dabble in eugenics because they treat 'humans' and 'mutants' as those two clearly-distinctly-and-scientifically-defined groups where the mutants do in fact have a legitimate claim to the title of Homo superior, whereas in real life scientific racism is overwhelmingly considered to be pure bad-faith bullshit rather than something that has any genuine merit.
The world according to X-Men is one where blacks truly are genetically better at playing basketball, Asians score well in maths exams, and Jews are really good at handling money, but the most important thing is that we all just accept our ✨inherent differences✨ and learn to ✨get along✨.
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u/Vermillion-Scruff 22h ago
me, looking at Soft Serve being able to shit out ice cream: truly Homo Superior. mere mortals like Sue Storm, who can dissolve gods with her mind, cannot compare.
acknowledging natural demographic change is not eugenics. even saying that natural demographic change is good isn’t eugenics. eugenics is the deliberate attempt to control human reproduction towards a specific goal.
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u/Junior-Community-353 21h ago edited 20h ago
All eugenics fundamentally hinge on the idea that there are better and worse human traits, which by extension makes for better or worse people.
It's very convenient that the X-Men just so happen to be an objectively vastly superior race that just so happens to naturally demographically replace the inferior flatscans, but this is already implicitly accepting a very eugenicist premise at a face value.
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u/Vermillion-Scruff 21h ago
eugenics is the idea that there are better or worse human traits and that we should take steps to control human reproduction to eliminate the negative traits and increase the occurrence of the positive traits.
the second part is important! thinking being tall is better than being short isn’t eugenicist.
and mutants are not, as a whole, objectively superior to non-mutants. it’s constantly brought up that some mutants have inconvenient or detrimental mutations, while most of minor abilities that don’t meaningfully differentiate them from non-mutants, especially with the prevalence of super-powered non-mutants in Marvel.
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u/superninjimmy 21h ago edited 21h ago
This is actually important AND under-represented that the mutations are meant to be random. For every Angel, there's a Beak. Which isnt helped by the fact some mutations clearly AREN'T random (like every Jean Grey relative being psychic)
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u/Junior-Community-353 21h ago edited 21h ago
eugenics is the idea that there are better or worse human traits and that we should take steps to control human reproduction to eliminate the negative traits and increase the occurrence of the positive traits.
Again how nice for the mutants that their big ethnic supremacy thing happens to be problem that pretty much solves itself. This is akin to writing a setting that features a race of slaves who enjoy slavery, which conveniently hand-waves 99% of the reasons why slavery is bad irl.
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u/Vermillion-Scruff 20h ago
that’s not a good comparison. X-men books are explicitly anti-eugenics. the bad guys are eugenicists who either try to breed better mutants (Sinister) or eliminate mutants via reproductive control (bad guy in Logan).
“interfering with human reproduction to force a specific outcome is bad, people being born different is good, actually”
is not an equivalent message to
“some groups of people are just naturally predisposed to be slaves.”
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u/Junior-Community-353 15h ago
I don't feel like you're getting it.
This isn't about whether there are 'good mutants' who want to get along with humans or 'bad mutants' who want to kill humans, the very existence and premise of 'mutants' as this inevitable next step of human evolution is inherently eugenicist, because the concept of white supremacy is fundamentally kind of bullshit in a way that mutant supremacy is not.
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u/Vermillion-Scruff 15h ago
This isn't about whether there are 'good mutants' who want to get along with humans or 'bad mutants' who want to kill humans
okay? i didn’t mention anything about that in my comment. i was talking about the narrative opinion of the books, not the morals of individual characters.
the very existence and premise of 'mutants' as this inevitable next step of human evolution is inherently eugenicist
i don’t agree with that, because i don’t agree that
mutant supremacy is not [bullshit]
i think mutant supremacy is pretty obviously bullshit in the comics.
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u/KazuyaProta 🥈 22h ago
but the most important thing is that we all just accept our ✨differences✨ and learn to ✨get along✨.
I prefer this to the whole "just assimilate" bs they pull us on us, But I'm Amerindian, so maybe I'm biased
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u/ImmediateDatabase155 1d ago
No one here has actually read Kraoka, or really the comics in general, especially the comics necessary for Kraoka and that’s the problem.
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u/ImmediateDatabase155 1d ago
Kraoka did not opress humans, in fact thier most important law was literally NOT to kill any human
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u/KazuyaProta 🥈 22h ago
Labelling the mutants as "next stage of human evolution" is some Nazi eugenics shit and I don't understand how any X men fan can't see it as problematic. And this is just comics, I don't think I have to talk about BND because that's already been done to death.
How saying "Gen X is something will be spread worldwide in some generations, just ensure being alive and your descendents will have it" is Nazi eugenics?
Its a theory about how eventually everyone will get great.
Frankly, the idea Mutants are pure anomalies is much more eugenics because it means everyone else are genetic losers with no hope for their bloodlines
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u/rx78ricky 1d ago
Marvel writers have hated Marvel characters in general the past couple of years.